Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Two Israeli Hostages Released By Hamas; Soon: House GOP Meets To Hear From 9 Speaker Candidates; Rep. Larry Bucshon (R-IN) Discusses About The Speaker Candidates. Aired 3-3:30 ET

Aired October 23, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:01:18]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN BREAKING NEWS.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Brianna Keilar in Washington with Anderson Cooper in Tel Aviv.

And we are beginning with breaking news in the Israel-Hamas war. Sources telling CNN that the terror group Hamas has released two more hostages who are believed to be Israeli citizens. Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes. As you know, two Americans were released last week. Sources are also saying that today's release is happening with the help of officials from Qatar who were involved in the other release as well, as well as Egypt this time.

CNN Chief National Security Correspondent, Alex Marquardt, joins us with some of the details along with CNN Anchor, Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, let's start with you.

What exactly do we know? Obviously, we have some information that we are not giving out until all of this is confirmed because this is still a very fluid situation. They are not in Israel, is my understanding.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Right. It's an incredibly fluid situation and so we are holding off on some of the details while we run those down because this is a very sensitive situation. We want to make sure we get everything completely right.

But what we do know is that two more hostages have been released by Hamas. We are told - I'm told that they're not actually in the custody of the Israeli government yet, but that they are on the way there right now. And so that is part of the sensitivity around this reporting about these hostages, obviously, given their situation.

But this is significant. I am told that they are both two female hostages that have been released. They, of course, would be only the third and the fourth hostages in total to be released of the hundreds that we do believe, according to the IDF, that Hamas has in their custody at this moment.

And so what we are still trying to figure out, Anderson, is whether or not they are dual citizens. We do know they are Israeli citizens, but maybe they have dual nationalities, as we've seen with a lot of these hostages and the people who were abducted by Hamas.

So those are details that we are still trying to figure out. But it does appear that this came about from some quiet mediation that was happening behind the scenes with the Egyptian and Qatari governments that have been obviously playing a really significant role in trying to get these hostages released, because Israel has made very clear from all officials that they are not personally negotiating with Hamas for the release of these hostages.

And I do think this is a big part of what we are seeing here when it comes to the timing of what everyone is waiting to happen next in Gaza, which is that Israeli ground invasion that we know officials have said and telegraphed quite clearly is expected to come. There have been discussions with U.S. officials, with other government officials about holding off on that until more of these negotiations for these hostages can happen.

And so right now, what we are working to confirm is the identities of these two hostages, where exactly they are now. And once they get into the custody of the IDF, which, Anderson, as you know, is what happened with those two hostages last week, they came to the Gaza border. They were then given over to the IDF, who brought them to a military base first in central Israel. That's where they greeted their parents before and having those medical checkups and obviously kind of debriefings of what they've been going through.

COOPER: Yes. And Alex, there's usually this interim step they're handed, usually Hamas or whoever is holding them, hands them over to the representatives of the international community, the Red Cross, and then they make that transfer to IDF officials.

These are two - there were two - the Raanans who we talked about last week. Let's talk about the timing of this. Clearly, Hamas has many captives in their custody. They could release all of them if they wanted to. They are releasing them two by two. What does that tell you?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's certainly good news. No one's going to tell you otherwise, Anderson. This is fantastic for those families as well as for the Raanans who saw two of their family members come back on Friday.

But no doubt, Anderson, whether it's the U.S. or Israel or Qatar, which is leading these negotiations along with Egypt, they would like to see much bigger numbers.

[15:05:05]

We heard from the IDF earlier today that there are some 222 hostages who are in custody. So we certainly don't want to see these hostages coming out two by two. The Qataris are now pushing for much bigger numbers, say dozens or scores, of the civilians, of the foreigners who are still in custody.

In terms of the mechanics, Anderson, obviously Hamas is not going to come face to face with Israeli officials as they hand over prisoners. So you have the U.N. which operates independently inside Gaza. You have the Red Cross, which operates fairly independently inside Gaza.

And so what has happened today, we understand, as like it did on Friday, the same mechanism of Hamas handing these two captives over to the Red Cross. They will then be taken to somewhere along the border. We don't know where. There are two formal large border crossings in southern Gaza. One goes into Egypt. One goes into Israel.

But, frankly, there are a number of places all along that fence line where you are seeing today all of those Israeli troops, where the Red Cross could then hand those two Israeli women over to the IDF.

As Kaitlan mentioned, they would then likely be taken to a military base, they would get checked up to make sure that they're okay. Hamas has claimed that the previous release was for humanitarian reasons. It's not clear what shape the Raanan women are in.

But we do understand from the White House today that U.S. officials have debriefed or are going to debrief the two Americans to gather intelligence, to get a sense of where they were held, how they were held, and any other kind of information that they could glean from those two women.

But Anderson, certainly the bottom line here is that everyone wants to see a lot more hostages being released. And that is why there is this pressure on the Israeli government to delay their incursion into Gaza. Anderson?

COOPER: Yes, and the international committee, the Red Cross has repeatedly requested access to all the hostages who remain in Gaza. They have not been allowed access. They've also requested proof of life. Last we heard, they had not received any of that from those holding them, Islamic Jihad or Hamas.

COOPER: Alex, Kaitlan, we'll check in with you shortly.

Kurt Volker, the former U.S. Ambassador to NATO and former U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations. He joins me now.

Ambassador Volker, there's a lot we do know, which we are not saying at this moment. We - these - we are waiting to see these two former hostages in Israeli custody. What are your thoughts on hearing this news?

KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Well, I think that this is a very difficult situation for Israel. The longer this goes on and this is clearly Hamas' strategy, is to drag this out, just a trickle of hostages here and there, harder for Israel to go ahead with a full- scale invasion. And that means that time goes by and increasingly public opinion is trending against Israel in many countries around the world.

So this is a Hamas tactic from the beginning, taking the hostages as a way to try to hold off an Israeli full-scale assault.

COOPER: One of the things that Hamas has said in the last couple of days is that some of these hostages may be being held by other groups, whether it's Islamic Jihad, which early on had claimed to hold about 30 or even individual families or sort of mob organizations in Gaza may have crossed over during the terror attacks and stolen people, that they have seen that in the past.

And Hamas had said that they are trying - want to locate where all of them may be and account for them all. Whether that's true or not is unclear. But certainly Israeli officials have said that in past experiences, there have been individuals or families or other groups which have taken hostages, and then they're sort of moved up the chain ultimately to a group like Hamas.

Hamas, though, could release all the hostages that they have. There's nothing stopping them.

VOLKER: That's right. They took these hostages on purpose, and I think it suits Hamas' purposes for these hostages to be distributed. Then they can say, oh, well, we don't even control all of them. We're working on it. We need time.

It's all part of a positioning of Hamas to try to keep the Israelis from launching that full-scale assault anytime soon. And I think that it could be both ways. It could be that, yes, there were individuals or other groups that also took advantage of the mayhem to go kidnap a few people to see if they can get some ransom or some payment from a higher-level Palestinian terrorist organization.

But it also could be that Hamas did this and then distributed these hostages in order to create the very conditions where they can then claim. Well, we can't even get them all right now. We have to work on it. Ambassador Kurt Volker, thank you for your time.

VOLKER: Pleasure.

[15:10:03]

COOPER: Joining us now is Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, spokesperson for the Israeli defense forces.

Col. Conricus, what can you say about this news?

LT. COL. JONATHAN CONRICUS, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES SPOKESMAN: Yes, I don't have an official IDF confirmation. I see Israeli reports and other reports out there. And as soon as we will have hands-on, then the IDF will issue an official confirmation of the situation. Of course, happy or better news, we want, of course, all of those held hostage, the women, the children, the babies, the men, the soldiers, all of them released and not just the two that have released - been released now.

COOPER: In terms of how the handover process goes on the Israeli side, can you talk about that in past exchanges? CONRICUS: Yes. I mean, there's a special - there's a designated lead here, a former IDF Brigadier General who is in charge of the whole mechanism at the national level, coordinating efforts between different Israeli offices and institutions. They - he and his people are represented on the ground at the handover, where the former hostages are handed over to Israel, usually by an intermediary.

Last time it was the Red Cross, we'll see who it is this time. I suppose it will be the same. And once they are in Israeli hands, they are brought back to an IDF base to make sure that - for medical and psychological evaluations to be reunited with their family and for additional interviews and understanding of the situation.

COOPER: In terms of the operation itself, the potential for a ground operation, how does this trickle of hostages being released, how does that affect military planning?

It's having effects, but I think that we can see through the very obvious efforts that Hamas is doing, probably trying to play for time and play for legitimacy, using extremely cynically the hostages, the civilian and military hostages that they've taken. We see through that and we demand all of the hostages back.

We are ready to maneuver. We are ready and every minute that goes by, we are more ready, more preparations, more practice and better honing of all of the capabilities. So every minute that goes by is not necessarily a minute that is in the best intention of Hamas.

COOPER: Do you have information about - has the Red Cross been able to, I mean, last I heard the Red Cross was not able to get proof of life of any of these hostages. They haven't been able to visit these hostages.

CONRICUS: Yes, I know of requests that have been made, but as of now, I do not have any information of actual meetings, which is what the Red Cross is supposed to do under its convention and what we all accept from it.

But we've seen that in the past. We saw it with Gilad Shalit and other Israelis that were held hostage. Hamas doesn't allow anything that is in accordance with humanitarian international law, no visits, no verification of anything.

I'll remind everybody watching that there are still two bodies of dead Israeli soldiers that have been in Hamas, that have been held by Hamas for many, many years. That we have been asking, of course, for the international cross to access and to get anything from so far without anything substantial.

But if we bring focus back to what's happening now, a very cynical practice by Hamas, one that we are able to see through. We're happy to see people released, but from our perspective, all of them should be home and they should be home quickly. And these practices are very clear what Hamas is trying to do, clinically using hostages to play for time. COOPER: In kibbutz like Nir Oz, where we saw Hamas gunmen brutally slaughter people. There were also large numbers of other men, even some young kids who had crossed over from Gaza in their wake, some of them armed, some of them not, looting. Is it believed that some hostages have been taken by other actors in this, whether it's not Hamas, not Islamic Jihad, but opportunists or criminal gangs?

[15:15:03]

Is that - I mean, in the past, have you seen that?

CONRICUS: Well, in the past - no, as far as I recollect, we've never faced a situation like this. And yes, I am aware of those reports and I've seen the video footage. Our perspective on this is that they are all Hamas responsibility. Hamas bears full accountability and responsibility for the actions, for the atrocities of October 7th, for crossing into Israel, for butchering, and raping, and maiming, and murdering and burning people alive.

All of that is on Hamas. They will pay the full price for it. They will be dismantled. And whether or not our people were taken initially by young, enthusiastic and bloodthirsty Palestinians that are not necessarily members of Hamas, less important. They are all under the responsibility of Hamas.

COOPER: And in terms of the movement of people that you have been tracking from the north of Gaza down south, as we know, hundreds of thousands of people have made that track, whole families have moved down. Do you believe currently, and I think we spoke about this a little bit yesterday, that Hamas operatives have also moved further south?

CONRICUS: They may have, which is part of what we assessed would happen, part of the risk assessment. We understand that Hamas has that tendency, like all other terrorists, whenever they face real fighters and not grandmothers and babies in shelters, but when they face real fighters, they have that tendency to flee, either hide underground in tunnels or try to look like a civilian and flee down south using the safety of those civilians.

We calculated that in and we still advertise our intentions because we want the Gazan civilians away from what is going to be a very high intensity combat area. So that's a risk we take. We will get our hands on those Hamas terrorists as well. We're hunting them and we have had quite a lot of successes lately of the last days with tactical commanders. We have a special task force that is interrogating many of those so-called elite Hamas forces, Nukhba.

Many of them were apprehended in Israel. They are being interrogated by the ISA and the live intelligence that is extracted is helping us in targeting the whereabouts of those that were able to get back to Gaza. And that has led to quite a lot of successful strikes on their whereabouts. We continue with that. None of them will end this war alive.

COOPER: Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, thank you very much. We're going to take a short break. We're going to have more on this developing story, this breaking story. Two more Israelis have been released. We're trying to find out as soon as we know that they're in Israel, we'll have more details. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:23]

KEILAR: House Republicans are getting ready to again start the process of trying to pick a new speaker after nearly three weeks with no one in that top job. These are nine candidates that are now running. They're going to deliver their pitches to their GOP colleagues during a closed door candidate forum that is set to begin about three hours from now.

And then tomorrow morning, members will take an internal secret ballot vote with the goal of selecting their nominee. The big question, who can get those 217 votes that are needed to win the gavel.

Joining us now is Republican Congressman Larry Bucshon of Indiana. Sir, thank you so much for being with us. Who are you planning to support for Speaker? You have many options.

REP. LARRY BUCSHON (R-IN): Well, at this time, I'm not committed. I want to see what the nine have to say. I know all of them very well and I want to see what they have to say tomorrow because it's challenging times.

So right now, I'm not committed. I do think some people who have been in leadership positions or committee chair people have a little bit of a leg up organizationally, but I think everyone's in the game at this point, so I'm not committed.

KEILAR: Okay. That would bring me to - you've supported candidates who could get the most support, why not Tom Emmer? He is apparently the front runner at this point in time.

BUCSHON: Well, Tom and I are friends. He did a great job at the NRCC for two cycles. From our perspective, he's been a good Republican whip. I'm on the whip team. So, yes, I would agree he's a great leader. But, of course, you have to get the majority of House Republicans to agree with that and the other candidates, some of which are pretty strong, so we'll see.

At this point, personally, I'm still uncommitted.

KEILAR: Does the fact that Tom Emmer voted to certify the 2020 election, as you did as well, disqualify him with a significant part of your conference?

BUCSHON: Well, I would hope not. I voted to certify the election, as you just mentioned, because it constitutionally was the right thing to do. And so I don't think that should be disqualifying and I think it won't be for Tom. KEILAR: It seems that we are watching the conference moving from candidates with more, though still not enough support, to a candidate with less and obviously still not enough support. How is that a strategy for electing a Speaker? How is that going to turn around?

BUCSHON: Well, let me just say, I support Kevin McCarthy. I supported him as Speaker and I've supported him throughout his career. He helped me start from the beginning. So I'm a big Kevin McCarthy supporter. But going forward, of course, he's not in this race.

[15:25:00]

So I think what you have to do is look at the candidates. And once conference picks a solid candidate, I would expect all the conference members, except for maybe a few, to vote for them.

And so I was telling someone this earlier, the lack of confidence and faith in our traditional institutions in the U.S. is the issue. Government, law enforcement, faith in general is a problem. And I think you're seeing that reflected somewhat in - amongst House Republicans. You need to pick a candidate that the majority of people choose, and then you need to go to the House floor and you need to vote for them and that's my approach.

So I've supported our nominees at this point. I supported Congressman Jordan because he was picked by the conference. But a lot of people now are not doing that and I think we need to change that.

KEILAR: So to your point there, do you want to see in this internal ballot a candidate get to 217 before they take this to the floor so that you don't see another situation like you saw with Jim Jordan?

BUCSHON: Ideally that would be the case, but I don't think that will happen. I think, to get 217 in the conference probably won't happen and then here's the other thing. That doesn't guarantee that people will not go to the - still go to the floor and not vote for the person that they said they would.

So we've had that happen in the past. I've been here since 2011 with Speaker Boehner. We had a number of people who defected from Speaker Boehner when they said they were going to support him.

So I don't think it's that important. It'd be nice. But I do think we have to have a strong majority supporting our candidate, because if we just have a - barely supported candidate and another candidate who's close, then it makes it more difficult to get 217 votes. We saw that with Congressman Scalise, who I also would have been supportive of had he gone to the floor for that vote.

KEILAR: When do you see this ending? I mean, can we get to the shutdown date three weeks from now and still not have a speaker?

BUCSHON: I don't think so. I think it's going to get resolved fairly soon. I'm hopeful it's going to get resolved this week. It should and we'll see where it goes after this evening. But I think House Republicans know that this is very detrimental to the country, not having a speaker. Look what's going on in your reporting before this segment about what's going on over in Israel, what's happening in the Ukraine and all the other things we know are happening in the world, including in our own country. So we need to get a speaker so that we can move forward.

KEILAR: Do you worry that your party, your conference, has put itself in a position of weakness going into negotiations ahead of the shutdown? Because this is time, we're watching this circus, that they could have spent negotiating ahead of this shutdown date and they haven't done that, so you could see where Americans might be more inclined to blame them over other parties.

BUCSHON: Well, I think it does put us at a disadvantage, absolutely. We don't have a Speaker. We're in the majority. It's on us to choose a speaker. So, of course, we don't have someone who is the Speaker of the House to negotiate with the White House, with Senate Democrats who are in the majority in the Senate.

So it does put us at a political disadvantage. And honestly, a disadvantage - it's a disadvantage to the country if you don't have everyone in place that can come up with deals that they think is the best for the American people. So absolutely, it puts us at a disadvantage politically. But also practically for the country, it's not a good thing.

KEILAR: Congressman, really appreciate your time. We are certainly looking to see what comes out of this candidate forum, as I know you are. So thank you for being with us.

BUCSHON: My pleasure. Thank you.

KEILAR: And we do have some breaking new details on the release of two Israeli hostages by the terror group Hamas. We will have that information for you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)