Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Interview With Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-MD); Michael Cohen to Testify at Trump's Civil Fraud Trial; Ex-Trump Attorney Jenna Ellis Pleads Guilty in Georgia. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired October 24, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:01:54]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: And the breaking news, a key former Trump campaign attorney has pleaded guilty in the Georgia election subversion case.

Jenna Ellis, ex-Trump lawyer, just entered that guilty plea this morning for full role in the scheme to overturn the state's 2020 election results.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Ellis is now the fourth of the 19 co- defendants to enter a guilty plea in Fulton County. And this is the third guilty plea from someone who was an attorney for Donald Trump, and in less than a week.

Let's get to CNN's Nick Valencia, who was in the courtroom in Fulton County, Georgia, and also CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

Nick, how did this guilty plea come about?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John and Kate, we had heard rumors that there were discussions going on between the Fulton County district attorney's office and Jenna Ellis' defense attorneys as early as last week, but we could never get confirmation from Ellis' defense team.

And then, today, this morning, during a stakeout, we saw the lead prosecutor for the DA's office, Nathan Wade, walk into court alongside defense attorneys for Ellis. And all of this looked like very similar trappings to pass plea deals that were cut in impromptu, unscheduled hearings.

This goes without saying this is a bombshell to the defense of the former President Donald Trump. And with every plea deal that is cut, the walls of his defense appear to be crumbling in on him.

We were the only correspondent team inside courtroom to see Jenna Ellis' tearful apology, an unprecedented move for the co-defendants in this case, to address open court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JENNA ELLIS, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR LEGAL ADVISER: In the frenetic pace of attempting to raise challenges to the election in several states, including Georgia, I failed to do my due diligence.

I believe in and I value election integrity. If I knew then what I know now, I would have declined to represent Donald Trump in these post-election challenges. I look back on this whole experience with deep remorse.

For those failures of mine, Your Honor, I have taken responsibility already before the Colorado bar, who censured me, and I now take responsibility before this court and apologize to the people of Georgia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: She appeared to implicate Rudy Giuliani in this, saying that she tried to help him when he lied to Georgia legislators. She met with him three different times after the election loss for the former president in 2020.

As part of this plea deal, Ellis, along with others who have cut similar deals, will have probation to -- she won't stay -- see the inside of a jail cell. She's going to have to do 100 hours of community service. She's going to have to pay a $5,000 fine, but perhaps, most importantly, just like in other deals, she's going to have to testify against co-defendants in any future trials or proceedings related to this case -- Kate, John.

BERMAN: All right, Nick, stand by for a second.

Also with us, our chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

And, Paula, while she was pleading, while she was elocuting, Jenna Ellis really seem to point the finger at other people involved here, saying she relied on information from other attorneys much more senior to her for information that they told her was true. And the implication there seems to be Rudy Giuliani, who was at the hearing that she just pleaded guilty to providing false information at.

[11:05:05]

Talk to me about how this plea deal and now the four plea deals fits into the larger Fani Willis case in Fulton County.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fani Willis charged 19 defendants in this sprawling RICO case. And it's significant that she has now secured deals from four of them.

And three of those individuals worked very closely to help former President Trump in his legal challenges to try to overturn the result of the 2020 election. Now, all of these individuals, as Nick said, they have all agreed as part of their deal to cooperate in future trials.

And that's part of why you get these deals, particularly deals that are as generous as the ones that have been handed out over the past several weeks. You have to help them build their case against other defendants.

Now, we will note, of the three individuals who worked on the Trump legal team, only one of them, Ken Chesebro, actually mentioned former President Trump during his plea deal hearing. But we do expect more deals. That's how these cases work. You start with 19 people, and you try to thin the herd, get people to cooperate with you, so you can really focus your eventual case on the key players.

Here, of course, that would be former President Trump, likely Rudy Giuliani and possibly Mark Meadows and a few others. The Trump legal team has tried to suggest that these plea deals indicate that the case in Fulton County is weak.

Now, let's unpack that, based on our reporting. Anybody who watched the hearings, because they're all televised, could see that perhaps prosecutors were not ready to bring a four-months-long trial so quickly against these two defendants. So, they were likely under some pressure to hand out these plea deals.

But the fact that they have already secured cooperation from four people, expect to get more, that is in no way a sign of weakness. The question now, though, is, when could former President Trump and his close associates go to trial? This is a case that is expected to take over four months to put on.

And if you look at that 2024 calendar, with the other trials and election events, it's almost impossible, John, to see where that could fit on the calendar. So it's something that could possibly not even happen for well over a year.

BERMAN: Plea deals could continue to happen. There are certainly more people who could enter pleas if they could choose to do so.

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Yes, they will.

BERMAN: So, at this point, we got to pay attention to what's going on there, because we get new developments every day.

Paula Reid, thank you. Nick Valencia, the only correspondent in the courtroom for that moment, because I think of the really excellent reporting by our team. Thank you, Nick, as well.

BOLDUAN: Joining us now for more on this, former federal prosecutor for the Southern District of New York Jessica Roth and CNN legal analyst and former U.S. attorney Michael Moore.

Michael, what do you make of this today?

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I'm glad to be with all of you.

I mean, it's significant any time that you have co-defendants agreeing to testify against their other co-defendants. That's a big deal and certainly not something, I'm sure, that Trump and other people want to hear.

I was interested in a couple of things. One, the sentence itself, the play itself is sort of in line with what we have seen. That is probation, first offender. In fact, the state has agreed that this would not be a crime of moral turpitude, meaning it can have things like not affecting her law license and those things.

So it was interesting to see that. But I was also interested to see how far away they stayed from actually talking about Donald Trump. They talked about the Trump campaign. They talked about other lawyers giving advice, but as an individual, as a person, you didn't hear much information about specifically the former president.

So I think probably Miss Ellis' plea will have more of an impact on people like Rudy Giuliani, maybe Mr. Eastman, lawyers that she basically put the finger toward when she said, I wish I had listened to and maybe not paid as much attention to lawyers that were more senior to me.

So I think those people have probably more to fear, more concern at this point.

BERMAN: From a political standpoint, she did say, if she knew then what she knows now, she would not have worked for Donald Trump in the election case.

From a purely political perspective, I guarantee you that is not something that Donald Trump, who is headed to a New York courtroom today...

BOLDUAN: Yes, exactly.

BERMAN: ... that's not something that he wants to hear.

Jessica Roth, to Michael's point, though, on who else might be in the most jeopardy from this Jenna Ellis plea deal, it has to do -- this specific deal, the aiding and abetting of making false statements in writing, that has to do specifically with the December 2020 hearing before a Georgia legislative subcommittee where Rudy Giuliani was there.

So, if you have one person who was there saying, yes, I did fall stuff, how potentially threatening is that to the other person who was there, Rudy Giuliani?

JESSICA ROTH, FORMER PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: I think it's very threatening to Rudy Giuliani.

I mean, she was effectively saying that she relied on him, although she said there were multiple lawyers who had greater expert -- experience and expertise than she did and that she relied on them and that she wished that she hadn't.

So she's pointing the finger squarely at Giuliani. So, I think that increases the pressure on him. It's not clear to me that, under any circumstance, Giuliani would cooperate, but perhaps he would enter a guilty plea at some point. And this increases the pressure on him to do so.

[11:10:06]

And she could be a very effective witness also on the point that she was making that she now understood that there had not been fraud in the voting in Georgia, because the things that she was pleading guilty to, having aided and abetted his false statements, were allegations about people having voted who should not have.

And so she's now essentially recounting that and saying that was false. And she now acknowledges that was false. And so her testimony, even in a case against Trump and others, about how she's come to understand that those were false allegations, I think could be very powerful in the legal case against them with respect to knowingly engaging in conduct to overturn a lawful election, but also, frankly, politically to have somebody acknowledging those were false allegations of fraud.

BOLDUAN: Yes, I was in the middle of it. I was the one pushing -- saying these -- this many false ballots and this and that, and I knowingly -- I now know that those are false statements and acknowledge those are false statements, saying to a judge in a courtroom as part of a plea deal,

Michael, do you think, from what we have seen so far, right, four pleading, cutting plea deals, three of them being former Trump attorneys, what -- does this -- is it wrong to assume that this could be a domino effect, then, of this will lead to more people looking to get plea deals?

MOORE: Well, I mean, I think the plea deals that have been offered, basically, a first-year lawyer would advise their client to take this deal, no jail time, no record. You can have first offender. This will be sealed after a period of time.

I mean, these are pretty easy decisions to make when you're going there. And if you're looking for the domino effect, we're really -- with these particular defendants, we're not at the top of the domino line. We're sort of starting down middle and below.

And so you don't see necessarily -- if you think about it, you want to push the domino that's near the top or at least push it in the direction toward the top. And this seems to be pushing it sort of in the middle.

And I will point out too, even as she talked about the other lawyers and the advice she got, remember that that's exactly what Donald Trump is going to say. And that is, I relied on people to tell me what to do. I relied on lawyers. I relied on political consultants. I relied on people close to my campaign.

And that's her excuse. And you can count on that's going to be the excuse that you hear from people higher up the chain. And so it's laying out the case. But, again, it's a good day for the state when you have somebody in a case -- in a indicted charge plead guilty and admit some things.

But it's -- I don't know that we're necessarily at the top. This plea may put pressure on Giuliani. It may put pressure on Eastman, may put pressure on other people to -- and then they might need to feel some additional pressure if they want a plea. And that puts pressure going up the line of the dominoes, if you will.

But it's significant any time -- any time somebody pleads guilty in a case and agrees to testify, the prosecution, I'm sure, feels like it was a good day.

BOLDUAN: Yes, it's still a long way from over, which is very true, for sure.

It's great to see you both. Thank you very much.

BERMAN: All right, that's the Fulton County courtroom.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: There are dramatic events taking place at this moment in a New York City courtroom, where Donald Trump's former fixer and former attorney Michael Cohen is set to be face to face with Donald Trump for the first time in five years. Five years?

BOLDUAN: Yes. Yes.

BERMAN: Five years, right?

He is set to take the witness stand in the civil fraud trial, Michael Cohen. He's to take the witness stand in the civil fraud trial. This is the case where Donald Trump has already been found liable for committing fraud. Trump, by the way, has also been found guilty of violent -- not found guilty, but found liable, fined for violating a gag order.

Ahead of his testimony, Cohen said he's looking forward to being in the same room as Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER ATTORNEY/FIXER FOR DONALD TRUMP: My credibility should not be in question.

Yes, I pled guilty to a 1001 violation, which was lying to Congress, but I also requested that people continue the sentence and the sentences. I did it at the direction of, in concert with and for the benefit of Donald J. Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Michael Cohen before he added the court.

Brynn Gingras is now at court.

Give us what we're expecting to see, Brynn.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, I mean, we are fully expecting a bit of drama when Michael Cohen walks into the courtroom. That hasn't happened just yet.

But there's still been a bit of drama. And that's because, before even court started today, we learned that four members of the New York attorney general's legal team and one member of Trump's defense team tested positive for COVID in recent days. Trump's attorney asked the judge to basically put a halt to today's proceedings, saying it would be irresponsible to proceed forward.

However, the judge said that that is exactly what they're going to do. So, someone has been on the stand today. We do expect Michael Cohen's would be up next. And when he does enter that courtroom, it's exactly like you just said. It's been five years since those two men have been in the same room together.

[11:15:08]

And that is going to be a pretty dramatic moment. Now, what his testimony is expected to entail is when they were in the room before working together, as Michael Cohen, his -- personal attorney for Trump, and when they had discussions and -- he alleges, about Trump's net worth and how they would fudge financial statements in order to get better deals on loans, according to the New York attorney general's office, which, basically, Michael Cohen is the pivotal moment in this case against Trump in this civil trial.

So we will see when that happens. We are expecting that to happen very soon. And we will continue to give you those updates from the courtroom, guys.

BERMAN: All right, keep us posted, Brynn. A lot going on. We appreciate you being there for us -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, coming up for us: The field is shrinking fast. House Republicans are narrowing down the field of candidates to be the next House speaker today. They started with eight candidates. They're now down to five.

With such a slim majority in the House, as we well know, which is why they got in this mess, will they still need Democrats to help get this over the finish line in the end and get the House working? Democratic Congressman Steny Hoyer joins us.

Right now, also, we're watching overseas, the United States, Israel, Qatar, Egypt in negotiations, trying to get more hostages freed. What Hamas is saying, what Hamas is willing to do. We have new reporting about the complications behind the scenes to try to free these innocent civilians.

And violence has erupted in the occupied West Bank. Dozens of Palestinians have been killed or arrested by Israeli security forces. Ahead, Sara Sidner takes us inside a Jewish settlement to give us a closer look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:21:25]

BERMAN: All right, breaking news from Capitol Hill, they just completed another round, the Republicans did, of voting for House speaker.

Remember, Dan Meuser dropped out before voting. So did Gary Palmer. Pete Sessions, he was the low vote-getter in the first round. So he was out. The second round, Jack Bergman was a low vote getter, so he was. Out and we just learned the Congressman Austin Scott, the low vote-getter in the last round, which means there are four candidates left as they head into the fourth round of voting.

And we were told that Tom Emmer right now is the leading vote-getter. We were told he has about 100 votes at this moment, would need to get to about 110, 111, depending on how many are voting to secure the Republican nomination, as it were, for House speaker.

All right. So that's what's going on in the Republican world right now behind closed doors. We will bring you an update when we get new information the fourth round of voting.

In the meantime, with me is Democratic Congressman and former House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer.

Congressman, how close do you think the Republicans are getting to figuring this all out?

REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD): Well, when you mentioned that Tom Emmer has 100, of course, they need 217. So they have some way to go. And, of course, this has happened before.

But we need to have a bipartisan path forward. And Republicans need to keep that in mind. The House has now been shut down for three weeks. The world is on fire. Ukraine is still being assaulted criminally by Putin. Israel is at war, and we need to help them. We need humanitarian aid.

We also need to be concerned about our Indo-Chinese security, so that there's a lot to be done, and shutting down the House for three weeks because the party, the Republican Party, is so deeply divided, divisive and dysfunctional is bad for the American people and bad for global security.

So, then I'm hopeful that the Republicans will decide to come to a consensus and a bipartisan agreement with Democrats, so that the House can work on behalf of the American people and on behalf of international security.

BERMAN: All right, we did just get confirmation that Tom Emmer got 100 votes to get the Republican nomination. To go to the House floor, he needs a majority of voting Republicans there. It has been suggested by some Democrats, including Dean Phillips of

Minnesota, who -- from Minnesota, along with Tom Emmer, Dean Phillips has said he might vote present on the House floor, which would lower the threshold if Tom Emmer is the pick, would lower the threshold for the total number of votes that Emmer would need to secure the gavel.

Would you be willing to vote present to help Tom Emmer get the gavel?

(LAUGHTER)

HOYER: I don't -- I'm not going to speculate on who's going to be their nominee or what they're going to have within their own party agreement. Again, 217 is their magic number.

And they have been unable to get to that for scores of votes to this point in time. We're going to be united. What you have seen in the Democratic Party is a party that united. And our leader has said ready, willing and able to move forward with Republicans with a bipartisan path forward to do the work for the American people.

And that's where we are, and that's where I think we will be.

BERMAN: OK, you said they need 217. They would need less than 217, fewer votes than 217 if people voted present.

[11:25:01]

But, be that as it may, if you were to work with the Republicans in any way, you're calling for some bipartisan plan. What specifically, Congressman, would you want as a promise from a Republican who wants to be speaker?

HOYER: Well, first of all, let me point out we have had a number of bipartisan votes already in this Congress which have allowed us to move forward to keep government open.

And that was a bipartisan vote of over 300 people. To fund Ukraine, over 300 votes on seven different votes on that issue. We voted to make a deal, in effect, at spending levels for this coming fiscal year. That was a big bipartisan vote.

And we voted to make sure that the United States did not default on its debts, also over 300 votes. So, we have a bipartisan majority. We just need to have them move forward now and be willing to work together to do the things that the American people need, that our government needs, and, very frankly, that the international community needs.

They count on America. Whether they like us or dislike us, they know that America is the indispensable nation that can be the only nation that really has the capacity to try to bring some degree of security and stability in the international arena. And, therefore, it's essential that this bipartisan majority which already exists be allowed to work its will.

And, of course, that means the Republican Party has to allow bills to be put on the floor which can pass with a bipartisan majority. If they don't do that, if they just stand in the way of progress, the dysfunction that they have displayed will result in harm, and it is resulting in harm, to the country and to the American people.

BERMAN: Got to have a speaker to get bills on the House floor at all.

Congressman Steny Hoyer, former majority leader, great to see you. Thank you very much for all of that.

HOYER: Thanks a lot, John.

BERMAN: Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, we're going to stay very close to this.

We also have some new reporting coming in we need to tell you about on talks that are under way to get Hamas to free a large number, is how it's described, of the more than 200 hostages who were kidnapped in that terror attack on October 7, sources warning, there are obstacles, very clearly.

We're going to bring you that new reporting coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)