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New Information on Hamas Tunnels; No Fuel into Gaza; U.S. Military Advises Israel; House to Vote for Speaker; Rep. Warren Davidson (R-OH) is Interviewed about House Speaker. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 25, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:42]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: New U.S. intelligence on the complex Hamas tunnel system underneath Gaza as the hunt for hostages intensifies.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: More loyalty lost and new legal blows to come. Donald Trump's former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, has been granted immunity to testify in the federal election subversion case. That's according to ABC News. Meadows reported telling Trump there was no evidence of fraud, telling prosecutors Trump was dishonest.

And there's more. Trump's former attorney is back on the stand soon. This one is for the civil trial against him. The former president expected to be there again.

I'm Kate Baldwin, with John Berman. Sara Sidner is on assignment in Israel. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BERMAN: So, this morning, is the fifth time the charm? We are standing by to see if Congressman Mike Johnson from Louisiana will end up as speaker of the House in the next few hours. This could all unfold before our very eyes after a chaotic three weeks that saw Kevin McCarthy booted from the speaker's chair. Steve Scalise get the nomination but drop out before a full House vote. Jim Jordan get the nomination but lose several House votes. Yesterday, Tom Emmer, he got the nomination. He lasted four hours before he withdrew.

It is Mike Johnson's turn. He may be the last man standing. So, how do things look for him. Overnight, in a ballot to see how Republicans would vote today. 22 Republicans voted absent, three voted present. If he loses four of these votes today, that would be enough to sink his efforts to be speaker.

And we are getting new reporting on the status of these votes. And we will update you on that very shortly. And we'll explain just who Mike Johnson is.

In the meantime, in Israel this morning we have new reporting on the U.S. intelligence on the Hamas tunnels. The vast spider web of tunnels throughout Gaza. CNN's chief national security analyst Jim Sciutto is standing by for us in Tel Aviv for the very latest.

Jim, what have you learned?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: John, there had been some question form the beginning, going back to October 7th, is how Hamas carried out this enormous assault on Israel, highly complicated, without enormous capabilities, without being detected by Israeli intelligence prior. Of course, Israeli intelligence, highly capable, focused on the activities of Hamas in Gaza. And this new reporting gets to some of that answer, noting that what Hamas did is build a, not just a network of tunnels under Gaza, but hard land lines, phone lines, that they used in there to communicate for some two years prior to this assault. Those land lines could not be intercepted by Israeli intelligence, surveillance signals intelligence, which is highly capable, and that appears to be one of the ways they managed to keep this quiet and attack with that surprise, that devastating surprise that we witnessed on October 7th.

It's not unlike, John, what al Qaeda, what bin Laden was forced to do after 9/11, relying on couriers, for instance, not electronic communication, because that is something, not just Israel, of course, but U.S. - U.S. intelligence has enormous capabilities. And that's quite a discovery and it speaks to Hamas' preparations for this attack.

BERMAN: Israel has had a complicated relationship with the United Nations for decades. Even more tension, maybe than ever, over the last several hours. What's going on here?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, these were remarkable words to hear from the U.N. secretary general yesterday speaking to the U.N. Security Council, Antonio Guterres, saying, and these are his words, that the October 7th assault did not happen in a - in a vacuum, his words. And then noting the -- what he called a suffocating occupation of the Palestinian people by Israel for a number of years.

Have a listen to how he put it before the U.N. yesterday.

[09:05:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONIO GUTERRES, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Now, the secretary general is not alone. We heard from the queen of Jordan, Queen Rania, speaking to Christiane Amanpour yesterday, describing what she called a double standard in terms of how the U.S. and its allies reacted to Israeli casualties in a way she says they are not reacting on a similar scale to Palestinian civilian casualties in Gaza.

It's important, John, because it affects key relationships out here. Israel has said it will now block visas for U.N. officials, including the U.N. official responsible for humanitarian aid in Gaza. But it also speaks to a larger political pressure, and that is Israel losing Arab moderates, losing support from Arab moderates, but even from - from some in the west as it contemplates an escalation of the war in Gaza. Those fault lines, they're not entirely new. They've been here for years. But, notably, I think more severe in recent days with those words from the U.N. Security Council and also from Jordan.

BERMAN: All right, Jim Sciutto, our chief national security analyst, who is in Tel Aviv, thank you very much.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BERMAN: Let's go down now to Gaza, talk about what is happening there.

The United Nations Relief Agency inside Gaza says it will need to shut down operations today if it does not receive more fuel. That warning comes after the World Health Organization said that six hospitals in Gaza have been forced to shut down because of lack of fuel. The Israelis insist that there are thousands of gallons available. And they say, if more fuel did go into Gaza, it would essentially be stolen by Hamas and utilized by Hamas.

Let's get to Salma Abdelaziz for the very latest on the situation there.

Salma.

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, according to aid agencies, the clock is simply ticking. They say that if they don't get fuel in a matter of hours, you are looking at hospitals shutting down, neonatal units being unable to provide for preemie babies, dialysis patients not getting their treatment, water not being pumped, meaning that there is sanitary issues across the Gaza Strip. They are begging, they are pleading and this is for a regional director for the World Health Organization who said, we are on our knees. We need access, we need fuel now.

Now, as you mentioned, there is, of course, that back and forth that the Israeli military says it will not allow fuel into the Gaza Strip. Its concern is that fuel would be stolen by Hamas. UNRWA, which is the main U.N. agency on the ground, and the one that is most appealing for fuel right now, that says if they don't get fuel by the end of the day essentially that they're going to be forced to shut down operations. They denied these accusations of looting in the past several days.

And none of this, of course, bodes well for the 2 million people - more than 2 million people, half of them children, John, that are trapped in that enclave with no way out.

And all of this happening, of course, as Israel intensifies its strikes on the Gaza Strip ahead of that potential ground incursion. Again, aid agencies are saying, look, if we don't get this fuel now, if we don't get this help now, this humanitarian crisis that has already been spiraling out of control could really push Gaza into darkness.

BERMAN: Salma Abdelaziz, thank you very much for the latest on that. Keep us posted when you hear more.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: CNN is also learning that U.S. military advisers are urging Israel to essentially learn from America's past battles, advising a measured, strategic approach in its response to the Hamas terror attack. The aim is helping Israel avoid a repeat, essentially, of brutal battles in America's past, like Fallujah and Iraq, back in 2004.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is live at the Pentagon with more of this.

Natasha, this is pretty fascinating. What are you hearing about this strategic advice?

NATASHA BERTRAND, NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Well, the U.S. military is advising the Israelis to conduct its operation in Gaza with a strategy in mind. And specifically using - using precision air strikes, as well as targeted raids to go after the senior Hamas leaders that they want to eliminate. And this is in contrast to what the U.S. sees as a potentially disastrous strategy by the Israelis, which would be to launch a full-scale ground invasion into Gaza that would involve Israeli forces going door-to-door, street-to-street, engaging in brutal urban combat, in the way that the U.S. did against insurgents in Iraq in Fallujah in 2004.

That is something that the U.S. is really advising them against. They say that that is not a good strategy, especially when it comes to trying to protect civilians.

[09:10:03]

That really puts civilians in danger. It puts the hostages that are still in Gaza in danger. So, they're trying to steer them away from that and more towards the model that the U.S. employed in Mosul in 2016 when they were trying to drive ISIS out of that city. That was really led by special operations forces, drones, air strikes. It was a much more deliberate kind of operation.

And so the U.S. now trying to encourage the Israelis to move forward with a clear objective, clear strategy. And that is why one of the key U.S. military advisers in Israel right now is this Marine Corps three- star general, General Glynn, who has a lot of experience in urban warfare, urban combat. And he has been among the leading advisers to the IDF as they prepare this operation in Gaza.

It remains unclear at this point just whether Israel is heeding this advice. The sentiment across the Biden administration is that, look, they are going to likely launch some kind of full-throated military operation in Gaza because that is what the Israeli public seems to want. But, still, they are doing everything they can to make sure not only that they do this deliberately and with a clear strategy, but also that they have an exit plan because the U.S. does not want to see them undergo a prolonged occupation of the Gaza Strip.

Kate. BOLDUAN: Yes, the day after, and the day after that, exactly.

It's good to see you, Natasha. Thank you so much.

So, as western allies are urging Israel to hold off, if you will, in an all-out ground invasion, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, he told soldiers yesterday that a ground offensive was still on track, and saying that the next stage, quote, "is coming." Adding that they would strike, quote, "the enemy with great force."

Joining us right now, CNN military analyst, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

It's good to see you, General.

I want to ask you first about the reporting - the - on the intelligence and the intelligence failure that we're learning a little bit more about. That at least one way that Hamas skirted Israeli detection in planning the terror attack was by using a network of hard-wired phones built into the tunnel network over a period of two years. How big of a miss is this? And what does Israel need to do now to make sure they have better intel as they're trying to go after Hamas' command structure?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, that -- truthfully, that report was not a surprise to me, Kate. That's what terrorist organizations do. They adapt. They don't use cell phones because just like we're learning lessons, terrorist groups learn lessons, too. They know they can be struck if they use cell phones. They know that cell phones can be picked up and intelligence gathered if a terrorist fighter is caught. So, it doesn't surprise me the use of land line communication, couriers. This has been in operation, as John said a minute ago, since bin Laden realized that that was the way intelligence was collected on his organization.

BOLDUAN: Great point.

I asked General David Petraeus about the comparisons being made between the coming fight in Gaza against Hamas and battles past, like Fallujah during the Iraq War and also then the lessons of the U.S.-led coalition to retake Mosul then against ISIS.

I want to play for you what he said about those comparisons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS (RET.), FORMER COMMANDER, U.S. CENTCOM: They're inadequate. This is vastly more challenging. The enemy has had many months to prepare here. They'll face snipers, suicide bombers. Again, 300 miles of tunnels. They'll use the hostages as human shields. Use civilians as human shields as well. They don't wear uniforms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And now we know CNN is reporting that U.S. military officials are advising Israel to kind of learn the lessons from these past U.S. urban combat operations. What do you think of that?

HERTLING: Well, first of all, it - I - it makes me smile because General Petraeus fought in Mosul in 2003. I fought in Mosul in 2007 and '08. General Glynn, who has been dispatched by DOD to help Israel, fought in Mosul in 2016, '17. And in each one of those conflicts against first insurgents and then al Qaeda and then ISIS, the conditions of the battlefield change. General Petraeus is exactly right, the comparisons are completely inadequate.

But, having said that, there are lessons to be learned. The use of special operations in targeted strikes. The - I think the biggest lesson is understanding the role of civilians on the battlefield, if you will. And the certain problems you're going to have in Gaza, which are very different from Mosul because you had a flow of the population inside and out, even though in 2008, when I was there, we built a berm around the city, which was incredibly difficult to do but it kept the insurgents, al Qaeda in this case, inside of the city. They were not as strong of a terrorist group as Hamas is.

[09:15:04]

Hamas has prepared for several years for this assault. They want to draw Israel into this fight. It will be a difficult tactical battle. But as you just said a minute ago, Kate, and you're spot on, what happens after the fight? And that is where I think General Glynn is probably advising the Israeli government of, you've got to think about how the population is cared for, both during the fight and after the fight, because if the government is not there, the whole operation is going to fail and you're just going to level a piece of ground.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

It's great to see you, General. Thank you.

HERTLING: Thanks.

BERMAN: All right, we are standing by for what could finally be the decisive vote for House speaker. Really. Or not, I guess. We're getting the latest whip count just in.

A new report, Mark Meadows, Donald Trump's former chief of staff, granted immunity in the Justice Department's federal election probe.

And the destruction on the ground of Gaza through the eyes of a 13- year-old girl.

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[09:20:12]

BOLDUAN: Very soon the House of Representatives will be back at it. So we say right now at 9:19. They're going to try to elect a speaker once again.

Late last night, House Republicans picked Mike Johnson as their latest nominee. And if you blinked or fell asleep, you are right to be confused. Remember, Tom Emmer was also selected earlier yesterday. He then dropped out after it was clear he didn't have the necessary support to win the 217 votes needed to actually win the gavel on the full House floor. This is now the fourth speaker nominee since McCarthy was ousted 22 days ago.

Here's what Mike Johnson said about all of the chaos that's ensued since.

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REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Democracy is messy sometimes, but it is our system. This conference that you see, the House Republican majority, is united. Is united.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Definition of united, suspect these days.

Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill for us once again.

Lauren, is Johnson going to be able to pull it off?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's the major question, right, this morning after so many candidates have gotten the nomination behind closed doors and then failed to get the victory on the House floor. We are going to be watching today at noon. That is when Mike Johnson is going to take this flight to the floor.

There were three Republicans who voted present behind closed doors yesterday. That means they were not supporting Johnson. But I talked to one of them, Representative Mark Amodei, who said he had about a half an hour long conversation with Johnson last night after he voted present and that he did make a commitment to back Johnson on the floor today. Amodei argued that he just wanted to make sure because he has not run in the same circles with Representative Johnson in the past, that he was going to be supportive of some lands issues in Nevada that are important to him. Remember, all politics is local and a lot of these guys want to know that the speaker is going to have open communication on issues that are important to them. Amodei said that while there was no commitment made from Johnson, he is going to be backing him on the floor today. That leaves just two other members who voted present.

There were a number of absences in the meeting last night, so we're going to be watching very closely for those on the floor. But, look, Republicans are tired. They're exhausted. They are ready to move on from this process. And they know that there is actual governing that has to happen because a spending deadline is coming up on November 17th, Kate.

So, I think that there's certainly momentum behind Johnson. A lot can change in just a couple of hours. That's what we saw yesterday with Tom Emmer. So, we never want to say that this is a done deal until it is. But, obviously, headed to the floor, Mike Johnson has broad support from different factions of the Republican conference. Something that nominees before him have been unable to do. Kate.

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right.

Great to see you, Lauren. Let's see what happens.

Exhaustion may be winning the day, John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now is Republican congressman from Ohio, Warren Davidson.

Congressman, thank you for being with us.

How does it feel? Why might this speaker vote be different from the last three weeks' worth of speakers votes?

REP. WARREN DAVIDSON (R-OH): Well, yes, people saw like what's going on. It seems like Republicans keep shanking one another. There's a little infighting.

The reality is, both political parties are a coalition. They have sort of factions that make up the diverse political views of the country. Republicans have had a lot of time to kind of work through those. And I think it's not just about a person, it is about a plan. Part of the reason that, you know, a handful of people, unfortunately, vacated the chair and led to this kind of temporary chaos is because people lost confidence that there was really, truly a commitment to the appropriations process.

Mike Johnson laid out his plans to get all of our appropriations bills done, not just a giant omnibus, and a commitment to be able to take things in their own measure. So, I think he was able to build a convincing message for the plan. And then a person that everyone, if they don't completely trust him yet, they at least doesn't have a strong opposition in any one faction.

BERMAN: I might take issue, Congressman, with your description of it as a little infighting. I think this qualifies as a lot at this point. Three weeks in without a House speaker.

And for you personally, Mike Johnson would be what? You were a McCarthy guy, or at least you - you know, you didn't vote to oust McCarthy. You were with Jim Jordan. So, Johnson is, at best, your third choice to be House speaker. How does that feel?

DAVIDSON: Well, look, I think we - we need to get after the mission. And I feel excited that Mike Johnson's the guy that can bring us together and get us back focused on what we said we would do. None of us campaigned on keeping the status quo. And, unfortunately, that's what we've got, a short-term funding measure that expires on November 17th. This is status quo funding.

[09:25:00]

All the - all the dollars and all the Pelosi, you know, Biden policies that passed last year. If Republicans are going to change this place, we have to get our act together and get on offense.

BERMAN: What do you think the large takeaway lesson from this will be when people look back at this five, ten years from now, that a small number of people can blow stuff up?

DAVIDSON: Well, I mean, when you have a narrow majority, you know a four-seat majority, any five people can stop ever measure. So, a lot has been - a lot of attention has been given to the motion to vacate where you could have essentially a vote of no confidence on the speaker. And it's like, well, you should tread carefully on that. And, frankly, there are a lot of wires. If this is a -- don't cut the wrong wire, this thing could blow up. Coalitions are fragile, especially when they're tiny. Kevin McCarthy literally spent years putting his coalition together. The idea that we could piece it together in a weekend or an afternoon has definitely been proven to be a fantasy.

BERMAN: I guess what I'm getting at is, what does this really feel like today after three weeks? Does it feel like this all was worth it? Are you in a great mood or is this just resignation?

DAVIDSON: No, I don't think it is resignation. I mean I think there are - people are tired, but they clearly, as of yesterday afternoon, weren't willing to just settle unless they were convinced there really was a plan. I think, you know, Tom Emmer's widely liked, but it was like, well, what is the plan to get this done. And, you know, the dialogue on that wasn't bringing everybody together. So, that kind of quickly, you know, fell apart. So, I feel excited that we not only have a broader consensus in the party on what's possible, but a commitment to work together to get it done.

BERMAN: So, Tim Burchett from Tennessee, right, he described Mike Johnson as, quote, "kind of a goober, but I like that." How would you describe Mike Johnson?

DAVIDSON: Well, Mike is a brilliant guy. He's a very wonky guy. I can relate to that. He's a very, you know, committed Christian guy. You know, and put in a kind way. Not some way that alienates other people. And that's why he doesn't have any block of strong opposition. Even my Democratic colleagues have said, well, I disagree with him but he's a very nice person. And I think, you know, that's a - you know, maybe something that we need in our politics, a little more kindness.

BERMAN: I think the American people largely have been starved for bipartisanship and people working together.

Where do you think Mike Johnson will be working with the White House and maybe Democrats in the Senate to get stuff done?

DAVIDSON: Well, not all the ways they want. I'm pretty sure we're not going to take up the Biden supplemental, you know, certainly in whole or intact. That wouldn't go over well. I think we've proven that.

But, you know, I'm optimistic. I'm working with a coalition of progressives on FISA. So, as we go into the end of the year, the Patriot Acts, you know, spying on Americans program has not been well received. Of course we want to spy on foreign terrorists. But it has been weaponized to target American citizens and we've got a coalition of conservatives and progressives that want to see real reform on that. And I'm optimistic that we can do that.

We just had a big win on the Fourth Amendment's Not for Sale Act back in July, trying to protect privacy. And I think that's become something that is bipartisan.

BERMAN: I've got to let you go, but do you think we're - if you do end up with a speaker today, that we're maybe weeks away from a government shutdown?

DAVIDSON: No, I think we'll find a way to move something. Look, what both parties agreed to in the debt limit deal, the Fiscal Responsibility Act in May, was a - a CR, a continuing resolution, that has a 1 percent cut. If going into the - into 2024 there's a continuing resolution, i.e. we haven't fully funded the government, then there's going to be a 1 percent cut.

Everyone wants to avoid those cuts. Everyone wants to avoid the shutdown. But I think we are going to implement that plan to have a 1 percent cut into the first of the year because it will apply pressure to get our individual funding measures across the finish line.

BERMAN: All right, Congressman Warren Davidson from Ohio, maybe this is it or maybe we'll be talking to you tomorrow when you go back to the drawing board once again. Appreciate your time today.

DAVIDSON: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, what Trump's former chief of staff reportedly told the special council about Donald Trump in exchange for immunity in the federal election subversion case. We've got more on that for you.

And forecasters are calling it a quote/unquote "nightmare scenario." A powerful hurricane battering western Mexico. Where it could be headed next.

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