Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Jeremy Saland is Interviewed about Meadows' Immunity; Hurricane Otis Hits Acapulco; Emerson Admits to Magic Mushrooms Before Flight. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired October 25, 2023 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:33:55]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A new report on what could be a major legal twist in the investigations into Donald Trump. ABC News reports that Mark Meadows, Donald Trump's former chief of staff, was granted immunity to testify in the special council probe in the efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Meadows reportedly met with special council Jack Smith's team at least three times this year.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: ABC News is also reporting that Meadows told investigators he did not believe the election was stolen and that Trump was being dishonest, is the wording, in claiming victory.

Joining us now for some perspective on this is former Manhattan prosecutor Jeremy Saland.

It's good to see you.

JEREMY SALAND, FORMER MANHATTAN PROSECUTOR: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: What's your - what do you - can - can I start on a most basic level. On a most basic level, what does being offered and granted immunity to testify under oath mean?

SALAND: So, he's not going to exercise his Fifth Amendment right. He's not going to remain silent. He's going to spill, to a certain extent, and we don't know to what that is, what happened. And he's having the opportunity to say these things without having them coming back to haunt him and hurt him and be prosecuted, potentially, for says whatever he did or whatever Donald Trump did or whatever they were in cahoots together, if true.

[09:35:02]

So, it's giving him protection from his own actions if he cooperates. Again, to what extent, we'll find out.

BERMAN: The ABC News report says that Meadows, in testimony or conversations with Jack Smith, Meadows said Meadows never believed that Trump won and told Trump so. Why is that important? SALAND: Well, there's two pieces of every crime. There's that mental

state that's required and there's that physical act that's required. So, you can't just do something physically wrong and then you're guilty of it. What was Donald Trump's intent and knowledge. Was he aware and did he know that the election was lost. But, nonetheless, he perpetrated this fraud. So, if true, and he knew it, and that was his intent, who can tell you that better than the guy who was there with him and advising him? And that's Meadows.

BOLDUAN: But Meadows also - that's the same man who also didn't say the same thing when he published a book. There's contradictions here, Jeremy, in between what he is allegedly telling investigators and what he put out in his book. In his book he said that the election was stolen, rigged and with help from allies in the liberal media who ignored actual evidence of fraud. And he goes on an on and on, right? Is that a problem?

SALAND: Absolutely. I mean you look at Michale Cohen, which is sort of same but different. You look at Mark Meadows. You have two guys who were looking to placate the boss and do what he wanted and sort of be the guy who was really the person that Trump could go to. But then when the time calls for it, they change their tune and they say something different.

So, it's absolutely something they will impeach (ph), something meaning being cross examined, who will be impeached or challenged on, well, you said this before and now you're saying this, which is in complete contradiction. It's not gray. You're saying something completely opposite. It's going to be problematic.

BERMAN: Although one is saying something in a book or out loud. Another is saying something under oath.

BOLDUAN: So true.

BERMAN: And the two are very, very different, although I do understand that certain things are impeachable.

SALAND: Correct.

BERMAN: I do, very quickly, just one last question on Meadows, because ABC News is also reporting that Meadows said that he never heard Trump say -- Meadows never heard Trump acknowledge that he lost the election.

SALAND: I think that works favorable for Trump that you have somebody who's going to say these -- we'll call it bad things about what Trump knew or didn't know and what he did and what he didn't do, saying, Donald Trump never said to me I lost or I think I lost. But --

BOLDUAN: But a few people - everyone around him is saying you lost.

SALAND: Well, to follow up -

BOLDUAN: A (INAUDIBLE) amount of difference in -

SALAND: You're beating me to that punch a little bit.

BOLDUAN: Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

SALAND: No, no, it's OK, we can switch seats but -

BOLDUAN: Who's the guest here?

SALAND: So - so, but, the reality of it is, you're correct. You can only say - say, I didn't know, but, you know, when the cookies are missing from the cookie jar and there's some crumbled on your chin, you know it was you.

BERMAN: All right, Michael Cohen. We are - we just got new video in of Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's former fixer, arriving in this Manhattan civil court. This is a civil fraud trial where Trump has already been found libel for fraud. But the trial is for damages and other things.

For the first time in five years, Michael Cohen in the same room with Donald Trump. A lot of drama in terms of them facing off. But what is the actual impact of his testimony? He testified yesterday. We understand he basically said that he was told by Trump to fudge some numbers.

SALAND: This reverse engineering, I think, is a term that he used. He really goes through about how he did it and what he did. Donald Trump said, I want to be worth $6 billion, not million, but billion. Well, then, Donald Trump is worth $6 billion. And if he said, this is how I want to get there, and when I say he, meaning Michael Cohen, would then turn around and look at comparables that weren't really comparables to inflate prices, to get better premiums, to get lower rates.

One of the problems, though, keep in mind, is we have Weisselberg, who was also heavily involved -- we know who he is -- sort of contradicting what Michael Cohen says. But all this, again, goes to the heart of the case about what Donald Trump did and what he knew and what he didn't know and the value of what he inflated.

BOLDUAN: So, what has also been raised, as we're talking about with Michael Cohen, is a credibility issue, right?

SALAND: Yes.

BOLDUAN: And that is -- seems like that's likely to be raised by Trump's legal team in this.

But, after I hear that, yes, you can see why he went to -- he went to prison regarding, you know, his role in the hush money payments regarding Stormy Daniels. But this is not a jury trial, though. This is a bench trial with the judge. Does it play differently, does, you know, the creditability of the witnesses hit differently?

SALAND: Absolutely. You're talking to somebody who is emersed in this their entire career, meaning the judge. He's been there. He's seen this. He's not as moved by the -- some of the things of the defense attorney, or, for that matter, the attorney general's office will say. So, he'll be able to see through this. And he understands, meaning the judge, understands that someone who's going to cooperate doesn't have clean hands. Someone who's immersed in the swamp of dirtiness and corruption, if true, if true, is someone who is going to be potentially responsible and have baggage.

So, I - you know, it's valuable to cross-examine, and you should cross-examine Cohen on these - this -- his history that he lied and perpetrated other crimes. But what do you expect? If someone's involved in a crime, they're going to have the criminal history potentially. So, it doesn't go that far as it would to a jury.

BOLDUAN: Interesting. It's good to see you. Thanks, Jeremy.

SALAND: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, the destruction in Gaza through the eyes of a Palestinian teenager.

[09:40:03]

And what was a category five hurricane makes landfall just by a popular tourist destination. We're going to track the storm live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: So, right now, hospitals are starting to shut down in Gaza with fuel in short supply. That is according to the World Health Organization, saying six hospitals were forced to close because of shortages. One doctor in Gaza has told CNN that his hospital is in risk of becoming a, quote, mass grave, if it doesn't get fuel soon.

Now, the fuel shortage is also complicating other relief operations we're learning. The U.N. Agency for Palestinian Refugees says its operations in Gaza could just shut down because -- by the end of today if no fuel is delivered.

[09:45:07]

Israeli officials say there is fuel in Gaza. This has become a real flash point right now. They believe - the Israeli officials believe it is in the hands of Hamas, this additional fuel. And they say they won't allow more to flow in until they get guarantees that fuel is used only for civilians, not taken by Hamas to make rockets.

The Israeli military also posted on aerial -- an aerial photo on social media they say shows 12 oil tanks in Gaza and they say the tanks contain the equivalent of more than 132,00 gallons in fuel, which is why the IDF and Israeli officials say they need guarantees - they want guarantees before they allow it to get in.

Now, look at this, we're also getting a new perspective of the damage inside Gaza. A 13-year-old Palestinian girl showing what happened to her home after a strike.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NADINE ABDULLATIF, PALESTINIAN TEEN WHO LOST HER HOME: Look how it turns out. The olive trees. The olive trees of our lands. They're still getting out. People.

The whole place was smoke last night when we were trying to escape.

This is where we are sleeping. This is where we are sleeping. The door, everything. Everything is rock. This is where I was sleeping. And here was where my little brother was sleeping. Everything is destroyed. Everything. The chair. We were sleeping on those pillows.

My room. My clothes. All of my clothes. My closet.

They are looking for people. They're still looking for people. Their stuff (ph).

This is our house.

Understand how we can live like this anymore. We're children. I want to live. I can't live like this anymore. I can't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: John.

BERMAN: A 13-year-old girl.

This morning, a possible nightmare scenario for Mexico's southern coast. Hurricane Otis is slamming inland with winds at nearly 110 miles per hour right now. It did come ashore as a category five storm and is now down to about a category two.

Let's get right to Derek Van Dam for the very latest on this storm.

Derek.

DEREK VAN DAM, AMS CERTIFIED METEOROLOGIST: Yes, John, you know, the storm struck in the dead of night. It gave very little warning. Very few weather models that meteorologists look to actually picked up on the rapid intensification that it actually went through in a 24-hour period.

It was impressive. It took advantage of a very narrow swath of ocean warm temperatures at about 88 degrees Fahrenheit. And that's significant because for rapid intensification to carry on, it actually needs to be 80 degrees or higher. And it found just that water and strengthened rapidly, 165 miles per hour.

This is the first category five landfall to impact the eastern Pacific. The strongest storm to strike the Pacific coastline of Mexico. And the fastest 12-hour rapid intensification for this area. It is that 12-hour window where it rewrote the history books, rapidly intensifying by 90 miles per hour. But the overall picture in a 24- hour period, 115-mile-per-hour strengthening. That is incredible. Mind-boggling to be quite honest. Acapulco, not only a tourist destination, but it has a residency of

about 1 million people. So with a direct hit like this over a major metropolitan area, we're starting to see the first visuals of the damage that was left behind, not only by the wind, but also the storm surge.

It's a category two now. It is weakening rapidly. One hundred and ten mile per hour winds. That is starting to interact with the mountainous terrain of the Geraros (ph) state. It will rain itself out. But the damage has already been done. Taking people by surprise and taking the meteorological community by surprise, as well.

This was not really forecast to happen. It blew up from a tropical storm to a monster in a period of 24 hours. This is the new normal that we're getting used to here, John, climate change and the fingerprints written all over it.

BERMAN: Yes, a lot of superlatives there. The first, the strongest, the most.

VAN DAM: Yes.

BERMAN: Derek Van Dam, keep us posted when those pictures start to come in. Thank you very much.

VAN DAM: We'll do.

BERMAN: Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, now, coming up, new details about the off-duty pilot who is now arrested for trying to shut off a plane's engine mid- flight. Why he told the crew that they needed to cuff him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:53:36]

BOLDUAN: Joseph Emerson is the off-duty pilot who is now charged with trying to turn off a plane's engines mid-flight. Court documents reveal that he told the crew of that Alaska Airlines flight that he was having a nervous breakdown and needed to be subdued as this dangerous and very scary incident was playing out. He also told -- allegedly told police that he took, quote, magic mushrooms 48 hours before that flight.

CNN's Pete Muntean joins us now.

Pete, he is facing a ton of charges now. What more are you learning about this?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: One attempted murder charge for each person onboard that flight. And these incredible new details are coming out after Joseph Emerson's appearance in an Oregon court last night, Kate. They tell the story of a pilot in extreme distress who had told police he had been on mushrooms only two days before this incident. This all comes from conversations that Emerson had with police who met

the flight on the ground in Portland. Now, this incident took place at 31,000 feet. Emerson was off duty, seated in the jump seat, that's the small seat in the cockpit behind the pilots, essentially reserved for other airline pilots who are deadheading. Emerson said he reached up for two big, red handles at the top of the cockpit. Those are the engine fire extinguisher handles that first cut off the flow of fuel to the engines.

Now, Emerson told police he pulled those handles because he thought he was in a dream and wanted to wake up.

[09:55:05]

Then there was a struggle. The pilots jammed those handles back in. Emerson booted from the cockpit. And according to police he told a flight attendant, you need to cuff me right now or it's going to be bad.

Flight attendants restrained him in the back of the plane. Police say that's where he also tried to open an emergency exit. But Emerson later told police some really key detail here. That he was in mental crisis. That he hadn't slept in 40 hours. And that he had consumed magic mushrooms 48 hours before this incident.

Now, Alaska Airlines insists that Emerson showed no visible signs of impairment before boarding for the jump seat, but the conversation in the flying community, Kate, is really focusing on this, Emerson said he had been depressed for years. And pilots often fear speaking up about their mental health because they're worried they'll lose their FAA medical certificate, throw away their career. It's a really sad tale. And right now Emerson's pleading not guilty to these charges.

BOLDUAN: Wow, Pete, thank you so much for the update. So scary.

John.

BERMAN: A wonderful actor has passed away. Richard Roundtree, the star of "Shaft," was 81.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): He's a complicated man, but no one understands him but his woman.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): John Shaft.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Roundtree's manager says the actor had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. He died at his home in Los Angeles. He called Roundtree's 50-year career a turning point for African American leading men in film and his impact, he said, cannot be overstated.

One-time co-star Gabrielle Union tweeted, quote, "he was always the coolest man in the room with the best vibes and everyone loved him." So, we are standing by for what really, genuinely, and finally might

be the decisive vote for House speaker. We are getting a new whip count just in.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)