Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Manhunt Underway For Maine shooter; 18 Dead, Mental Health History Revealed Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 26, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Boris Sanchez in Washington, DC John Berman is live in Lewiston, Maine the scene of mass shootings at two separate locations. Officials today updating the death toll to 18. They say that eight of those killed have been identified. Another 13 were injured several of them in critical condition John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, Boris the gunman is still on the loose. In fact, we just got an updated public safety alert that crossed all of our phones up here, that said the shelter-in-place order in Androscoggin County, which is where I am and northern Sagadahoc County Also, which is nearby has been extended. Please make sure your homes and vehicles are secured. That warning just came out seconds ago.

People in multiple locations now being told to shelter in place. This huge manhunt is Intensifying for the suspect Robert Card. You can see him there on your screen 40-year-old. His family is urging him to surrender. Police have released several images of card including surveillance photos. You can see him pointing an AR-15 style rifle during the attack. We know he serves and in the National Guard has extensive rifle training. He is said to be an outstanding marksman. On the run right now. Want to catch up with CNN's Shimon Prokupecz who has been actually trying to follow where the manhunt is going and Shimon you're on the side of the road somewhere. Tell me what you're seeing.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, yeah, what happened was we got word that they were doing a search -- there were some -- where we were before in the last hour. They had some dogs out, some of the bloodhounds perhaps and they were out searching, and they may have gotten a hit and then they went, and they started doing some searches. And then they did the searches and now the law enforcement officials are back here at the school. This is where they're -- this is sort of a command post John, where they've been setting up. When they go out, they line up here and then there's heavily like armed vehicles. There's an ambulance and a couple of teams and they go all out and there's an ATV Presumably to search through the woods.

But this is where they've been this has been a staging area here all day and so if they do go out and search, if they get a tip or a call or something, they will leave from here. And they will go do the searches and that's what we saw earlier. And it looks like they were just coming back from doing one of those searches. Some of the roads around here, John I just want to show you remain closed. What they've done is they've put these barriers just along the roads here to try and prevent cars from coming here. This is a police car that just goes by and people have been honoring it. I mean this Location this town. There's only 17 police officers in this department.

So, there's a lot of area to cover so they can't cover every intersection. We have seen police cars at some of the intersections blocking vehicles, but it looks like there is some activity here. I think that's the most important thing. They are going out there are searches, but they're not happening at any kind of intense level. It looks like they're more organized or setting up and they're going into certain areas and that's where they're doing the searches John.

BERMAN: And just to be clear where Shimon is in Lisbon, Maine is about 10 minutes, 10 miles from where I am in Lewiston, Maine. Lisbon is where the Subaru was found by a, a dock by a boat launch on the Androscoggin River. Behind me is the bar where many of the people were killed in these dual Mass shootings and the suspected shooter Robert Card, 40 years old, they say went from, well went from the bowling alley first which is about 10 minutes away to the bar behind me. And then presumably dropped off this car, what you're looking at now on the banks of the Androscoggin River at a boat launch there and now is very much on the run.

Shimon, are you getting any details other than the fact that the search seems to be being staged from Lisbon? Where he was last believed to have been or his last known location any details about how they're going about the search

PROKUPECZ : So sometimes it's just tips, you know, a lot of 9-1-1 calls people here certainly are on edge, you know. There's that shelter in place. People are not really leaving their homes. There's some folks out here now getting gas for their for their cars and they're just going home. But what's been happening is the police tell us they they're getting 9-1-1 calls. People see something they hear something. Maybe there's a door open in a building.

[14:05:29]

I'm just trying to see, there's a car coming through here from one of the law enforcement officials. I wanted to see if they were coming out John, but this is what we've been seeing. These are kind of like the tractors that we've been seeing that are come that come out and they go in this convoy. Clearly that's not happening now, but that's sort of what we've been seeing Here when they go out for these searches. But most of it John as I was saying, it's mostly tips. They're getting calls from folks, you know. I don't know if there's some other information that's coming in, you know.

The police chief here in Lisbon earlier today when we spoke to him said that they have intelligence. They're gathering information and some of their searches could be based on that, but it seems right now they're just going off of these areas where they think he was at based off of maybe a scent from a dog or where could he be so many hours later? And it just seems like a guessing game at this point and perhaps maybe, look clearly, they know more than they're telling us. So maybe that's what they're going on. But you know, the one thing I think that's important to know I mean things here are calm, right. Like there's not this sort of large presence of law enforcement going out and going through the woods and going through homes looking for him things are relatively calm. There are these searches they gather, they get together, and they go out in a very methodical, kind of quiet way and that's when they do their searches.

BERMAN: One of the things I did want to ask Shimon, is you mentioned that tractor which in sometimes was being taken in convoys. Is that presumably because of that rain here because there is so much heavily wooded areas and parks.

PROKUPECZ: Yeah, I'm -- that's what it is. There's a heavily wooded area, yeah, there it is again. So now it's going this way. I mean and there's some officers there on the street. But yeah, it's heavily wooded. So, part of that is so they could go through some of the wooded area. But for the first time today, I mean I really saw the heavily armed sort of in those, those bearcats, those armored vehicles driving through the town here. They've been staging here, they've -- since early this morning and then they waited till the sun came up and then then they've been coming out. But yeah, and the tractors have been out. So, now we're just waiting to see what happens and presumably as it gets late as the sun goes down, we're not going to see as much activity like we saw when we first got here around 5:30 this morning.

BERMAN: Yeah, and again the shelter-in-place alert that we just got on our phones warned people to have their homes and cars secure.

PROKUPECZ: Yeah.

BERMAN: So that is the posture, Shimone. We'll let you get back to your phones and your sources right now to see if there is anything going on in your area right now --

(CROSSTALK)

PROKUPECZ: Thank you. Am I chasing, right? (ph).

BERMAN: as there is that little bump in activity. Yeah, let us know, let us know.

PROKUPECZ: Okay.

BERMAN: All right, we are now getting details on 1 of the 18 people who were killed. Let's get right to seeing as Brian Todd who's outside the bowling alley where the first string of shootings took place Brian. What are you learning?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, John. We just arrived out here This is near the bowling alley where the where, as you mentioned the first shootings took place. The just-in-time recreation center, you cannot see it from our location, but we're roadblocked here. It's a looping road that goes behind me and then to the left, that's where that bowling alley is. We do have some new information from the brother of one of the victims who was killed in the shooting yesterday. The brother's name is DJ Johnson. His sister's name is Tricia Aslan, 53- years- old. DJ Johnson, her brother spoke to CNN a short time ago not on camera and said that his sister Tricia worked part-time at this bowling alley behind me but was actually there bowling at the time of the shooting last night when the gunman came in and opened fire.

And this is a quote from DJ Johnson what I'm told is that when it started happening, she ran up to the counter and started to call 9-1-1 and that's when she was shot, DJ -- DJ Johnson told CNN. He said quote that was just her, she wasn't going to run. She was going to try to help. He said his other sister was also at the bowling alley but was able to escape. DJ Johnson was on a flight to Maine to identify his sister and be with the family. We were also told a short time ago John, that one of the victims that had been transferred from one medical center to another has just been discharged so good news for that particular victim. But again, you know you and I were talking last hour about the volume of patients the central Maine Medical Center, the head doctor there told us that he had 14 patients within the span of 45 minutes coming into his emergency room. Just, you know, the kind of the sheer volume of patients there is just astounding. This -- you know another interesting thing about the, the timeline there is what we got from officials earlier.

[14:10:09]

This scene of the shooting, the first 9-1-1 calls happened at about 6 56 p.m. eastern time from this location. Then it was only 12 minutes later that the the 9-1-1 calls came from where you're located John, at the Schemengees Bar & Grille. That's only about a 10-minute drive away. So, it does appear that the shooter acted with some purpose or at least move fat, -- moved fast between the two locations. What we do not know John, is his motive. Did he target this place and the place near where you are purposely? Was he targeting specific people? They did not address that at the news conference, of course. We're gonna be digging on that.

BERMAN: Yeah, where Brian is right now, about a 10-minute drive from where I am at 6:56 the first shooting took place there at the Just-in- time Recreation Center, the bowling alley. The second shooting took place right here at Schemengees bar which is right behind me. Brian Todd. Thank you so much for that reporting and just to reiterate, we now know the identity of 1 of the 18 people who were killed. Tricia Asselin, 53-years-old. She worked part-time at the bowling Alley, but she was just there for fun last night. Apparently killed when she was trying to get help and trying to call 9-1-1. May her memory be a blessing.

With me now is former FBI special agent Katherine Schweit author of stop the killing, how to end the mass shooting crisis. Catherine thank you so much for being with us obviously, what's taking place here is different than many of the mass shootings that we see, which is that the killer at least for a time, got away. At least for now. How does that change the situation? KATHERINE SCHWEIT, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: You're right It's very unusual to have our shooters take off in a mass shooting, in this active shooter kind of situation where they're doing the shooting. That's why we call it an active shooter and then they take off. In, in 70% of the instances that in whole incident ends in 5 minutes or less. So, generally, we find the shooters are often trying to commit suicide by cop or suicide by themselves 30 - 40% of the time. So, when a shooter takes off like this, and it's clear that he planned this as all of these targeted violence events are, then you have to look at okay, well now how do we go after him? And it's just like, like if we're looking for a bank robber or like we're looking for a bomber or like we're looking for any other criminal. We have to be very methodical about it. And, and you know daylight is not -- is a good thing and nighttime is not your friend, and it's very methodical process. It's, it's a challenge no matter what the underlying crime was.

BERMAN: You say it's clear that he planned this just like they all do, talk more about that for a second.

SCHWEIT: People who commit this kind of targeted violence what -- you know we refer to as active shooters. They move on a kind of a planned and, and project, projected target, targeted intent to violent. I'm not saying it right but what I'm saying is they move on this pathway to violence that starts with an idea. They, they have a grievance whether it's real or perceived. And then they want to take that grievance and then they want to execute violence because of it. And they begin to gather together. They plan and prepare. And they gather together their instruments. In this case he's skilled with weapons. He owns multiple weapons. He knows how to buy a bunch of magazines fill it with, with high-powered, high-velocity firearm ammunition. And so in this case he's making the plan way ahead of time and he may have been planning 2 weeks or 3 days. He -- but he may have been planning for 2 months or 3 years. Our FBI research shows that the planning is often weeks and months and sometimes years.

BERMAN: What's the right way to think about the connection between mental health and mass killings and particularly this mass killing? Because we have learned 1 of the pieces of reporting is that Robert Card right here a military reservist, he was treated as an inpatient for mental health issues. He reported hearing voices over the summer and apparently talked about, you know shooting people that he was training with here at a base.

SCHWEIT: I think it's certainly fair to say now that mental health is the scapegoat answer for everybody who wants to say it's not this, it's not guns, it's not that individual. It's just the mental health. Mental health is a factor. There's no question about it. FBI behavioral experts who studied our shooters found that mental health was a factor. But mental health overall, mental wellness overall. A very small number of people who have a mental health issue ever commit violence and certainly ever commit a targeted violent act. And so, when we say somebody has mental health problems. They're generally like this gentleman; reporting is that he was on medication, and he stopped taking it. That's the problem. It's not getting the mental health care. [14:15:09]

The problem is not taking the mental health care. And when we look at mental health as one of the many factors, it isn't just that that maybe drove him to it, drove him to whatever he chose to do. He did all the planning and the preparation, and so we have to say, who around us is struggling? It can't -- it doesn't have to be somebody who is a paranoid schizophrenic. It doesn't have to be somebody who has some other diagnosed mental health care. It could be somebody who is suffering from depression, anxiety, that -- and they're a more brittle person and they begin to -- on this pathway to violence. And it's up to us, because we know from research that it's those of us in the community. This happened in Maine, but across the country and across the world, people should be thinking, who around them has access to guns and is in a troubled spot right now from a mental health standpoint or from a mental wellness standpoint? So that's kind of where they come together, troubled people with guns.

BERMAN: Katherine, I have to let you go, but very quickly, this man killed 10 minutes away from here at a bowling alley right behind me at a bar, on the run right now. Is there any way of knowing if you think there is more killing in his plans, or do you think he's more focused on just running?

SCHWEIT: I think the future, if I was predicting, right, the future, if he does pull a trigger again, it's going to be against his own head or it's going to be if he gets boxed into a corner someplace and he feels that's the only way that he can continue to run. We've seen people shoot someone in a car so they can take their car. That's why they want the areas to be locked down. Don't try, -- don't put yourself in a position where you open a door to somebody and circumstances or you're in a car and you drive by, and he needs a car.

BERMAN: Katherine Schweit, thank you so much for your help here. And the shelter in place warnings, to be clear, are specific toward people's homes and cars. Please protect them, say authorities and be safe. Katherine Schweit, we really appreciate it. This manhunt underway after 18 people killed here in Lewiston, Maine, much more breaking news after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:19:55]

SANCHEZ: Returning now to our top story, a man who served alongside the suspected mass shooter in the Army Reserve says that Robert Card was one of the best marksmen in his unit. Card is now facing at least 8 counts of murder for allegedly going on a shooting rampage in Lewiston, Maine last night. Joining us now is John Miller. He's a CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst. John, you've learned some significant details about the suspect's mental state leading up to the shooting.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: That's right, Boris. This summer in 2023, he was at the New York National Guard training operation at Camp Smith near Peekskill, New York when he sought counselling because he told superior officers that he was hearing voices, that he was having thoughts about hurting other soldiers. There were conversations about doing harm to people at the military base where he was assigned in Maine, in Soco, so he got what they call a command referral, which is, it's a referral without a choice, where he was sent to a special military hospital where he was put under psychiatric observation for about 2 weeks where they were able to talk to him, presumably, if it follows the course of most of these encounters, likely prescribed medication, and after those 2 weeks released him for further care, he returned to Maine.

And that is where we start to kind of lose the trail from what was a mental health episode he was going through to where we ended up last night. He does live there. He has a very large piece of property, hundreds and hundreds of acres, and they are now looking for where he is and where he's going since they haven't recovered the weapon he used, and they still can't find him.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, our colleague Pamela Brown is reporting that Card's family has been urging him to surrender. What does it tell you that he hasn't turned himself in yet?

MILLER: Well, here is a person who may have regressed to a mental state where he is hearing other things. He may be in a paranoid state. It's probably a good thing that they are working with the family to get their voices into this. It's obviously a less threatening appearance than being hunted by law enforcement. But again, it's hard to put yourselves in the mind of an individual who would kill that many people in the town where he lived and worked and knew people, and then try to attach rational thinking to it.

SANCHEZ: Absolutely, it does strike me, John, that he had this episode, as you described it, that he was held for observation for several weeks and that he still had access to very powerful weapons. How do investigators now go about tracing that angle of this?

MILLER: Well, Maine is a state where if you're 18 years old, you can buy a rifle. If you're 18 years old, you can buy a handgun, but you have to go through a background check and some safety training. So, there would have been nothing at the time of these purchases, which were -- was presumably before his episode in the summer, that would have prohibited him from owning those. Interestingly, though, Boris, if he had a mental episode in the military and he was returned to the place where he was serving in the reserves in Maine, was that information passed to the army reserves in Maine?

[14:25:45]

Did the police get to fill out that form 6 that they use in Maine to record somebody who may be having a mental crisis for the awareness of police in case they need to respond in the case that that person needs help or someone else needs help? All of that is going to be in the after action, which they will peel through every angle of this when this is over. But the beginning of when this over starts with when he is captured and that is their main focus right now.

SANCHEZ: It's fascinating. CNN speaking to someone that he served with in the Army described him as a rational, understanding person who led through respect. Really different picture from someone that told police that he was hearing voices that was telling him to harm other people. John Miller, thanks so much for walking us through that.

MILLER: Thanks Boris.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Shifting gears, Israel's military is conducting a targeted raid, or rather conducted a targeted raid overnight in northern Gaza. It's preparing for the next stage of its ground operations. We have a live report from the region when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)