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IDF: Ground Operation in Gaza is Expanding. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired October 27, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: What does that tell you about the closeness with which forces are operating?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, the effective range of a tank is somewhere between 2,500 and 3,000 yards, because that's what they can see. They have great night vision capability, night vision devices within the tank that will set on a target and be able to hit it at those ranges 3,000 meters. They go about 1,000 meters a second -- most tank rounds. So you can hit a target 3,000 meters away and even further if you can see it. But it tells me that there is something they're targeting on the other side. Probably the movement of some type of Hamas forces or Hamas vehicles or the establishment of some type of battle position by Hamas. They could also be seeing trucks moving up toward the border, planting improvised explosive devices, a series of things could be happening. But that that is a direct fire fight from a ground vehicle -- Anderson.

COOPER: I want to show some video from about two days ago that was released by the IDF, in which they call a very limited cross-border operation to hit reconnaissance -- any reconnaissance positions or any munitions. This is again from two days ago. This is from Wednesday. We see bulldozers literally flattening the ground. What do you make of this?

HERTLING: Well, first of all, you see that long line of vehicles, the tanks and what look like personnel carriers with the flat roofs, but the tanks with the gun turrets, they're being let in across the border with bulldozers, D-7 dozers. Those things will clear rubble so the tanks can follow on behind them. They might also pick up because bulldozers are run by the engineers. They also have sappers that will find mines or improvised explosive devices and disarm those. So the follow on vehicles, the tanks and the personnel carriers can go in behind them.

What I also saw was one of the bulldozers that looked like it was leveling the ground at the crossing point. It looked like there was a berm there that it was leveling off. Because you don't want a tank going up over the top of a berm cause it exposes its underside. You want to go straight across so it can maintain its turret and its orientation of its main gun tube on the enemy.

COOPER: So in terms of moving forward is IDF forces moving forward into Gaza the deeper they go. You and I have talked about whether this could be a multi-pronged, you know, blitzkrieg fast operation or slow methodical. Are mines a concern along the border with Gaza? Do we know? Because I was out with the IDF during an operation 2006 during the fight against Hezbollah, in a armored personnel carrier going across the border, and it was supposed to be an hour operation and it lasted I think about 14 hours because the movement was so slow because of concerns about mines.

HERTLING: Well, mines and improvised explosive devices and, Anderson, shifting from this conflict to the Ukrainian one, that's exactly what's slowed their forces down going against Russian minefields. And Hamas has learned from other armies. They know that a massive ground assault with tanks and personnel carriers which protect the crews also have to travel on routes and go either over mines or improvised explosive devices.

And what I'd also suggest is the Iranians have likely provided Hamas with something -- a special kind of IED called an EFP -- an Explosively Formed Penetrator. We saw those with Iranian proxy groups in Iraq, and they are deadly against armored vehicles. They fire a stream of hot, molten copper metal into a tank and can slice through like a knife through butter. So they're going to be watching for mines, IEDs, EFPs, Explosively Formed Penetrators, sniper positions, defensive positions, and in addition to that they're going to have -- the rallies are going to have to go through the rubble that they created by bombing buildings.

So what we're not going to see is a very fast assault with a lot of vehicles. What we just saw in that film that you showed is probably about a tank company of maybe a 100 soldiers. You're not going to see a tank brigade go in on one route, ducks in a row, because you just can't maneuver into an urban environment like that. And the streets of inside of Gaza are very narrow and they've been rubble for the last 20 days by Air Force bombers.

[04:35:00]

So all of those things in combination with the subterranean fight that you have Hamas in tunnels, probably with human shields, likely with the hostages are going to make this battlefield some of the toughest at any infantry or armored warfare has seen when you're talking about combat in the city.

COOPER: So in terms of comparing it to Fallujah and comparing it to Mosul, I've had some military officers, former military officers tell me that they think this will be harder than those operations. Do you agree with that?

HERTLING: Well, yes, my command was responsible for a fight in Mosul in 2007 and eight. And what I'd say is this will be 10 to 20 times harder than Mosul for a variety of reasons. First of all, you've got better trained Hamas than you had al-Qaeda. You also have, like you said, the mines, al-Qaeda. They had IDEs and EFPs. They didn't have the minefields. They didn't have the subterranean fight that they could duck into. They didn't have high-rise buildings. I mean, the highest building in Mosul, I think, was like six or seven stories. So all of those things compound the fight when you're talking -- oh,

by the way, they didn't have close to two and a half million people in Mosul that were the citizenry of the city and al-Qaeda, for the most part, was not using them as human shields, and they also didn't have 229 hostages. So when you try and compare Fallujah or Mosul to what's going to happen in Gaza, there is no comparison at all. And I'm telling you that from a guy who commanded forces in an urban environment, it's just going to be so much tougher.

COOPER: And we're obviously seeing some very large explosions one after the other in Gaza right now. Before we let you go, Colonel -- General Hertling, let me ask you, the other factor in this, which is different than perhaps in Mosul and Fallujah is, Hamas has had -- if they have been preparing for the slaughter that took place in October 7th for two years. They've also had two years to prepare for what they knew would be an inevitable ground operation in the wake of that slaughter. So they've had a long time to prepare and think out and game out what Israel is about to do.

HERTLING: That is correct and that's why I think you have Israel conducting the kind of operation they're doing, trying to strike targeted infrastructure, trying to strike entrance to the tunnels, trying to strike locations where they know the -- Hamas has fired rockets from. Because that's the kind of intelligence they have.

Again in Mosul, al-Qaeda was moving in and out of the city. There was a free movement in all directions north, south, east and west. What you have in this case is you've had Hamas in this city preparing defensive positions and tunnels and the kinds of ambushes that they want to conduct against the Israelis. They want -- Hamas wants Israel to come into this city. They -- that will meet every demand they have because not only will they be able to fight the Israeli Defense Forces they will be able to blame the IDF for all of the Palestinian casualties that are caused by them inside of the city, because they have held on to the Palestinian population. So they want Israel to come in and they don't care if Palestinians are harmed.

COOPER: General Hertling, we'll talk with you throughout the night. We're going to take a short break. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: And welcome back. We're going to bring in our Jim Sciutto, who is in northern Israel along the border with Lebanon. Jim, let's talk about what you're seeing there and also what you are hearing internationally, both from Israel's allies and from their enemies, yes.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So you have from their enemies clear warning. You had the Iranian foreign ministers say on NPR that their fingers are on the trigger. They being Iranian proxy forces around the region. And we've witnessed that since we've been in northern Israel up on the Lebanese border. We've seen regular. Speaking to IDF forces there. Regular strikes from Hezbollah, both from the air in the form of artillery, sniper fire, but also attempted ground incursion. And of course, we saw these attacks elsewhere in the region on U.S. bases in Syria and Iraq, which is why you saw the U.S. fire back today with those strikes on Iranian bases in eastern Syria.

That is how Israel's enemies are reacting. And the question has been, will they amp up those attacks? From the north, from the northeast, in the event of a major ground operation in Gaza. And if this is indeed that major ground operation under way, we're going to know. We're going to know in the coming hours and days. And I can tell. Israeli forces in the north they are very much on alert for that kind of thing.

But I think what's notable, Anderson, is that if Israel is indeed going for a full scale invasion here, they're doing so with the open opposition of many in the Arab world. We heard a short time ago from the Jordanian Foreign Minister, Ayman Safadi, saying that such a ground war would, in his words, be a humanitarian catastrophe of epic proportion.

[04:45:00]

And from U.S. officials, we know that in recent days they've been counseling Israel to know what their goal is, right, and raising questions as to whether the goal of eliminating Hamas, as Israeli leaders have said, is achievable, or even if it's achievable at what cost? Based on as you were talking about with General Hertling there, America's own experience in places such as Fallujah and Mosul.

So you have Israel acting here not just with deep opposition from many in the Arab world here, but without the explicit support and even some skepticism from its closest ally, the U.S., based on that advice its been given. That is a precarious position to be in, especially if this is a long drawn out conflict here.

And by the way, I should say, you know, and Israel that is surrounded really by Iranian proxies. Do those Iranian proxies act on the words of the Foreign Minister? In other words, take their fingers from being on a hair trigger to firing their weapons in numbers at Israel. That's a real concern tonight.

COOPER: Yes, Jim Sciutto, thanks very much. We'll check back in with you.

Sara Sidner joins me here in Tel Aviv. I mean, I keep thinking about people who certainly have family in Israel who are watching around the world, who are concerned about their loved ones, who are reservists and soldiers waiting there on the border and also people who have relatives in Gaza. Who apparently -- it seems like communications have been have been stopped from there.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's what we are hearing from people who have family in Gaza. They cannot communicate with them at all. And as you might imagine, they are watching these bombardments as we are and that's the heaviest one we've seen in days, if not the three weeks that we've been watching this. And so they are extremely concerned that they can't contact their loved ones at all. There's just no communication.

We heard from Jawwal, which is the Palestinian Telecom there. They power the whole Strip. And they said zero communications. That the bombardments have knocked out all of the routes between Gaza and the wider world. Their telecom systems are completely down. And so we're getting reaction from that. The IDF has not -- would not comment on whether or not they had cut off the telecommunications there.

And you're hearing some noises there. You're also seeing some blasts go off. And we actually hear them. I know you've heard plenty of times today. You don't just hear the rockets coming over and the -- and the Iron Dome intercepting, but you actually hear --we're not that far from Gaza -- you hear the blasts going off there and they rumble like thunder over you. So families there are terrified.

We're hearing from the Jordanian prime -- sorry, Foreign Minister who has said, you know, this is if you do a ground incursion this is going to be a catastrophe. A humanitarian catastrophe on top of what is already a catastrophe there. And we're also hearing from the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority. Who believes that this is a concerted effort to darken things so that Israel can, as he put it, commit crimes.

Israel, of course, saying they are doing a limited ground operation right now. And this was part of the plan that they were going to do something on the ground. We'll have to wait and see. But the bombardment is extreme and no one can get in touch with anyone in Gaza right now.

Yes, our Sara Sidner, thanks very much. Our coverage is going to continue. We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back.

[04:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Our coverage continues from along the border with Gaza. Jeremy Diamond is there in Ashkelon. Jeremy talked about what the last couple of minutes have been like.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson not only have we been hearing these really loud thuds, the sound of outgoing artillery fire, but also of course, bombs being dropped on Gaza, which can sometimes are so loud that they shake the windows and the walls of this hotel where we're staying in Ashkelon. Which you know, we're about 10 kilometers away from the border with Gaza.

But what we are also hearing tonight, which is interesting, Anderson, is we're hearing a lot of helicopters, which is the kind of activity that we have not heard over the last several weeks. We've been hearing the bombardments. We've been feeling them. But what we haven't been hearing is these helicopters that have been constantly buzzing overhead in the area over the last couple of hours. So that's just an interesting data point here as we try and figure out exactly what this expansion of ground operations by the IDF announced this evening actually is.

We know that Israeli military and political officials have been telegraphing over the last several days that a ground invasion of Gaza will come that it was simply a matter of timing and that that operation would come at a time of Israel's choosing. Whether or not that is what is happening tonight, we don't know. But they certainly have been preparing the terrain in the last several days with several targeted raids inside of Gaza involving tanks, involving naval forces, involving infantry forces all over the last several days to try and target those tunnels inside Gaza.

Miles of tunnels under which we know that Hamas uses to operate. Where they're also holding a number of those hostages. And also where -- which presents a significant risk, of course, to an Israeli ground force that would go inside of Gaza, not only because Hamas fighters can use those tunnels to their advantage to evade Israeli forces, but also because they can use them, of course, to ambush those forces as well.

[04:55:00]

COOPER: And Jeremy, we should point out -- Sara Sidner was just talking about it --the communications it seems on the Gaza side have been shut down. Israel has not said that they have done that, but it would certainly from a military standpoint, if they want to stop Hamas from communicating, that would certainly be a strategy.

DIAMOND: Yes, and again, it's all -- you know, when we are in this moment where we have, you know, less than a full picture of exactly what is happening, exactly what these operations are, we look at a number of these different data points to try and understand what is different tonight from what has happened over the last several weeks. And again, what's different tonight is the intensity of the bombardments. How loud they are from the position where we are. The types of munitions that they may be using. There's also the smoke that our correspondent Nic Robertson and -- was hearing as well -- was seeing as well. Which was different.

And of course, the communications being cut off is not something that the IDF has done in the last couple of nights. Even as they've conducted those targeted raids. All of that indicates that what we are seeing right now, what we are hearing right now is something much, much larger. Whether or not it is that ground invasion remains to be seen -- Anderson.

COOPER: And Jeremy Diamond in Ashkelon, thank you. "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right after a quick break.

END