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IDF: Military Has Completely Surrounded Gaza City; Palestinian- American Trying To Get Family Out Of Gaza; Now: Eric Trump Testifies In NY Civil Fraud Trial. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired November 02, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:49]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean alongside Boris Sanchez here in Washington and this is CNN's Special Coverage of the Israel-Hamas war.

Just moments ago, an IDF spokesperson said Israeli soldiers had completed their encirclement of Gaza City nearly a week after expanding their ground operation into Gaza. And a short time ago, Secretary of State Antony Blinken departed for Israel with the new U.S. ambassador to that nation, Jack Lew. Secretary Blinken said a main objective of the trip will be to find "concrete steps" to minimize the harm to civilians in Gaza who face on average several hundred Israeli strikes a day.

More than 9,000 people have been killed in Gaza since the Hamas terror attack on October 7th that killed 1,400 Israelis. That figure is from the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Ramallah, drawing from sources in the Hamas-controlled enclave.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: It's very much on the agenda. When I see a Palestinian child, a boy, a girl pulled from the rubble of a collapsed building, that hits me in the gut as much as seeing a child in Israel or anywhere else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Notably, more Americans today were able to get out of the war-torn territory. Some 20 to 25 U.S. citizens who'd been trapped are now in Egypt. That's according to an Egyptian border official.

Let's start, though, with CNN's Jeremy Diamond who's live for us in Ashdod, Israel.

Jeremy, what more are you learning about the movements in Gaza City, the IDF now saying they have that city encircled?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Boris. Over the last 24 hours, we've been learning more about how Israeli forces are approaching Gaza City, Hamas' stronghold in northern Gaza. And initially, we were told they were at the gates of the city. Then we were told they were operating inside the city after approaching it, both from the north as well as from the south.

And now, just moments ago, Israel's military spokesman, Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari, saying that the IDF has "completed its encirclement of Gaza." And he now says that the Israeli engineering corps, the army's engineering corps is working to locate and neutralize underground infrastructure, explosives and other threats so that Israeli forces can operate freely inside the city.

And I believe we're getting a siren, Boris. I'm just going to move to the side here. I'm just going to move inside. We're just going to move inside, guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay, guys, he's going into the (inaudible) ...

DIAMOND: Can you guys still hear me?

DEAN: We can still hear. Well, we could still hear him.

SANCHEZ: Seems like we lost his signal there. Obviously, a very fluid situation on the ground.

DEAN: Yes, yes.

SANCHEZ: Especially close to Gaza.

DEAN: And we'll check back in with him as we need to. We'll let them take cover right now.

Let's go to CNN's Melissa Bell, who's live in Cairo with the latest on the evacuations.

Melissa, how many do we know were allowed to leave Gaza today and come there to Egypt and what are people telling you as you're talking to them?

MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, already, Jessica, we've seen several hundred foreign and Jewish nationals coming out there from the Rafah Crossing here into the safety of Egypt. And that includes several dozen Americans as well and bringing with them, of course, their stories about what's been happening inside.

Bear in mind that these people that are coming out now are essentially either aid workers or foreigners who were visiting family in the Gaza Strip or indeed foreigners who were based there with other nationalities, other passports with them.

They simply found themselves on the wrong side of the line on October 7th, and have ever since desperately been trying to get out. And what they bring with them are stories about how difficult that's been for them, the whole process of getting themselves to Rafah and across, but also more about what's happening to the civilians.

We heard from one American woman, one of the first ones, a doctor who was evacuated last night, about the fact that no one, nowhere is safe in Gaza right now.

[15:05:04]

And I think these stories that they're bringing with them are very important for the world at this stage to hear. But it is a very difficult process. It's a very chaotic process and I think it's important to remember that whilst it is the Israeli inspections that make the aid going in that slow, it is really Egyptian security concerns that are making this very complicated indeed.

They have vowed that all 7,000 foreign nationals will get out. The issue for the Egyptians and the reason the Rafah closing - Rafah Crossing has remained closed so firmly and opened ever so slightly and with such difficulty at all is because Egypt is extremely wary of what's happening. Bear in mind that what happened on October 7th, of course, didn't happen in a vacuum.

Israel and Egypt only signed their own peace deal in 1979 after 30 years of being in a state of war. This is a country now in the hands of the military that is very concerned about who is coming over its border and what the wider implications for the fallout of this will be for regional stability. And I think all of those things explain why this is such a tedious process for the families desperately hoping for news of their loved ones there at the Rafah Crossing. Boris?

DEAN: So many layers there.

All right. Melissa Bell in Cairo, thanks so much for that update.

SANCHEZ: Let's get back to Jeremy Diamond who was in Ashdod for us before having to very quickly rush inside as air sirens were going off.

Jeremy, glad to see that you're okay.

DIAMOND: Yes, Boris. This is just kind of life here, right?

SANCHEZ: Yes.

DIAMOND: Sirens go off, folks rush indoors for a few minutes, wait for the all clear. We heard one interception overhead. But I do want to get back to what I was talking about, which is this idea that Israeli forces are really closing in, encircling Gaza City right now.

But what's interesting about that is that even as they are moving into that Hamas stronghold, the largest city in the Gaza Strip, they are also still dealing with Hamas fighters on the outskirts of that city. And in fact, in the northernmost part of Gaza, where Israeli tanks and troops initially moved in. We were today across the border from Beit Hanoun, which is the northeastern most city in Gaza City. And we could hear active fighting throughout the day today, both artillery mortar rounds going off, small arms fire between Israeli forces and Hamas militants.

And so clearly, even as Israeli forces move into those more urban areas right now, they are still dealing with fighters on the outskirts. And part of that is because of that tunnel infrastructure that Hamas has built over years and years, dozens of miles of tunnels where they not only are able to evade Israeli forces, but where they can also potentially ambush them and we know that that has been happening over the last several days as we now approach the seventh day of this expanded Israeli ground operation.

DEAN: All right. Jeremy, thanks so much. We appreciate that reporting and stay safe.

SANCHEZ: We want to dig deeper with someone who is close to folks that are stuck near Gaza's border. Our next guest is a Palestinian American woman whose mother and sister are in that situation right now with family hoping to cross into Egypt and spending several days in that process hoping to get out.

Mai Abushaaban, excuse me, joins us now live from Houston.

Mai, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate your time and you sharing your family's story with us. We understand that your mom and sister got to the Rafah Crossing. Your mom was on a list of those who were able to get out. Your sister, though, was not. And this is the fourth time they've now been turned away. Tell us more.

MAI ABUSHAABAN, PALESTINIAN-AMERICAN WHOSE FAMILY IS TRYING TO LEAVE GAZA: Right. So unfortunately, as you said, this is the fourth time that my mom and sister have made the journey to the Rafah Crossing point and it's also the fourth time that they've been turned away. My mom's name was on the list of people approved to leave today, but my sister's name wasn't. Obviously, there - one is not going to leave without the other, so they went together and unfortunately, they were unable to cross.

On my end, I tried to call the embassies in Cairo and Jerusalem. I tried to contact the State Department here in the U.S. And unfortunately, I couldn't really get a hold of anyone to give me some sort of concrete guidance or a direction to move forward. It's been completely just nothing short of chaotic and I'm worried for the safety of my mom and my sister.

They're trapped sometimes without food, water, electricity, as bombs are dropping and flying above their heads. And the only way to ensure their safety and the safety of millions of Palestinians is to call for a ceasefire.

SANCHEZ: Would you please tell us more about your mom and sister, what you want the world to know about your family?

ABUSHAABAN: Sure. My mom and sister are just normal American civilians like any other. We pay our taxes, we go to school, we go to work, we're normal people just like any other people.

[15:10:00]

And it's upsetting to see that we're treated like second-class citizens and there's no sense of urgency by the State Department in evacuating Palestinian-Americans from Gaza. I know this sentiment is not only true for me, but so many other people who have family members stuck in Gaza.

Americans in Israel were evacuated on October 15th. Meanwhile, Americans in Gaza have been waiting for over 25 days without any sort of concrete guidance or direction on how things are going to proceed. So it's been really chaotic. It's been very stressful for not only my family, but so many other families and we feel like we're being torn apart.

SANCHEZ: What is communication with your mom and sister like? I imagine it's got to be difficult.

ABUSHAABAN: For sure, it's definitely difficult. Sometimes I'm able to contact them. Last week, I went almost 48 hours without speaking to them or just knowing if they're okay when they cut out WiFi and cell service. It also happened again earlier this week, but thankfully it was for a shorter amount of time.

Still, things are really unstable. There's a lot of uncertainty and we don't know what direction things are going to take. I'm just hoping that they're able to leave soon. And I'm grateful that there's a chance for them at life, because for so many people in Gaza, that's not the case.

SANCHEZ: Right. Mai, I'm curious, you said that you tried to speak to people within the Biden administration, the State Department, et cetera, about why there was this discrepancy with your sister not being on the same list that your mom was. Did your mom or sister give you any indication of what message they got when they tried to cross? Did you get any clarity as to why your sister wasn't on the list?

ABUSHAABAN: Unfortunately, we did not receive any clarity, whether from people at the border or from the State Department, other than just the fact that her name is not on the list. And this kind of treatment is the reason why my family is actually suing the Biden administration, because we believe they failed to live up to their responsibilities to protect American citizens. And we feel like that this is a violation of our constitutional rights and we are actively engaging in this lawsuit to pressure the United States government to safely bring our family home.

SANCHEZ: What would your message be to President Biden, since that's the case that you're suing the administration?

ABUSHAABAN: My message to President Biden would be that we need to treat all American citizens equally and take some sort of urgent action and approach the matter with some urgency. People are losing their lives. There's no food, there's no water, there's no electricity and the only way to ensure the safety of not only my family, but 2.3 million Palestinians, is by calling for a ceasefire.

I'm terrified for my friends and family in Gaza. And evacuation can't be the only way for them to find safety. Palestinians, like all people, they're entitled to their own homes. And I'm calling upon President Biden and his administration to call for an immediate ceasefire to end Israel's inhumane siege on Gaza.

SANCHEZ: Mai Abushaaban, we very much appreciate you sharing your story and your time with us. Thanks for the perspective.

ABUSHAABAN: Thank you so much.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

So UNICEF says more than 400 children reportedly have been killed or injured every day, 400 every day in Gaza since the Israeli bombardment began after the events of October 7th. The aid agency spokesperson is going to join us live to discuss in just moments.

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[15:17:58]

DEAN: It was a tense moment in a New York courtroom, Donald Trump's son, Eric, responding angrily to a line of questioning by a state attorney in his family's business civil fraud trial.

CNN's Brynn Gingras is outside the court.

Brynn, what happened?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Listen, Jessica, Eric Trump, one of the defendants in this case, remember the state's attorneys are trying to prove that he, along with his brother, his father, other members of Trump Org., work together to sort of create this fraud scheme with the financial documents and the basically evaluation of properties that they have in their portfolio.

Now, the questions are really pointing to those financial statements: how much was Eric Trump a part of the preparation of those, even how much does he even know about financial statements.

It's important to know earlier in the testimony of Eric Trump, he basically said, I didn't know anything about financial statements until this attorney general's investigation started just a few years ago. But it seems like the attorney general's office is catching him in some contradictions. Let me point out one to you in this graphic we'll put up for you.

The attorney states, assistant state's attorney general says, "So you did know about your father's annual financial statement as of August 20, 2013, didn't you?" And Eric Trump responds, "It appears that way, yes." And the state's attorney sort of keeping up with that line of questioning, pointing out contradictions or seemingly contradictions through phone calls, through emails, through even a prior deposition of Eric Trump, where they're trying to show that he had knowledge of these statements and in fact he helped prepare them.

So that's sort of why it's getting a little bit tense on the stand. At some points, Eric is raising his voice on the stands. It's a little bit more tense than it was for Donald Trump Jr. when he took the stand for about three hours today. He continued to still distance himself from any preparation of the documents, just like Eric is also trying to do as well. And then he talked to the cameras after he left for - after he got off the stand. I want you to hear what he had to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did it go?

[15:19:59]

DONALD TRUMP JR., CO-DEFENDANT: You know what, I think it went really well if we were actually dealing with logic and reason the way business is conducted. But unfortunately, the attorney general has brought forth a case that is purely a political persecution.

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GINGRAS: Don Jr. repeating some of the things that his father has often said to the cameras as well when it comes to the civil fraud trial. Keep in mind, this entire family has their business, their livelihood of Trump Organization at stake. Eric Trump, again, on the stand still. We'll see how long this last. Court wraps up at 4:30. We'll see if he comes back tomorrow and we'll continue to keep you updated, guys.

DEAN: Brynn Gingras for us, thanks so much. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Turning back now to the Middle East and the situation in Gaza, where the IDF has followed a week's long campaign of airstrikes with an expanded ground operation. The IDF now says it's completely encircled Gaza City, what they describe as the center of Hamas activity and their goal is to eradicate Hamas once and for all.

But our next guest says there's a smarter way to do it. Writing for cnn.com, political science professor Robert Pape argues that Israel is likely "producing more terrorists than it's killing." Robert Pape joins us now. He directs the University of Chicago's Project on Security and Threats.

Sir, thank you so much for being with us.

You say that overwhelming military force will not work in this situation, why?

ROBERT PAPE, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR: The key to defeating a terrorist group like Hamas is separating the Hamas terrorists from the local population. But unfortunately, the order by Israel to have over a million Palestinians go from the north to the south is not meaningful in this regard.

And in fact, what you are seeing is hundreds of thousands have not left, and they haven't left for a variety of reasons. Many are too old. Many are too young. They're too infirm. They need help in the hospitals. Others are staying behind to care for them.

And so what you are seeing is that the thousands of civilian casualties, over 8,000 are occurring as these military operations are going forward. And these are becoming ripe for recruitment by Hamas. And in fact, what you're likely going to see is that Israel is going to produce more terrorists than it kills. This is because the operation itself is unifying Hamas and the local Palestinian population.

SANCHEZ: So what could Israel be doing differently to differentiate between parts of Hamas and the Palestinian population? Are there any successful military campaigns in history to point to, as an example?

PAPE: The key is to understand that Israel needs a new strategic conception for how to defeat Hamas. Right now, Israel is going in heavy first with a heavy-duty military campaign, and then thinking about the politics later. This is a mistake and we've seen this mistake, and Israel has seen this mistake over and over.

In the early 1980s, Israel invaded southern Lebanon with nearly 80,000 ground forces, 3,000 tanks to go after Palestinian terrorists in southern Lebanon. That is the operation that produced Hezbollah, which did not exist before. And Hezbollah has grown stronger and stronger and stronger ever since.

Instead of the current strategy, Israel should consider an alternative. That is, where Israel separates from the beginning and politically the Palestinian population from Hamas. The best way to do that is not to wait until later, months from now, to think about the political process, but to think today, as the military operations are occurring, about establishing a pathway toward a Palestinian state.

This way, the Palestinian people would have a true alternative to the Hamas terrorists, and this would politically drive a wedge between the Palestinian population and Hamas. If that doesn't happen, if we stick with - if Israel sticks with the current strategy of heavy now for - and going heavy for months and worrying about the political part later, if ever, the Palestinian population will have nowhere else to go but to support Hamas, and Hamas numbers will likely grow each day that this new strategy is not adopted.

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SANCHEZ: I'm wondering how Israel tactically goes about differentiating between terrorists and people in just a normal population, because I don't think there's a track record, especially in the history of organizations like Hamas, of terrorists coming forward and declaring that they're terrorists. So it seems like a very complicated process. How could the IDF go about doing that?

PAPE: Boris, the problem you identify of tactically separating a terrorist from a non-terrorist today is only the smaller part of the problem. What I'm pointing to is that the very effort to kill terrorists today can lead to massive civilian collateral damage, more casualties and these folks have families, they have cousins, they have brothers who can become terrorists tomorrow. And so the effort to kill terrorists today, even when successful in killing the terrorists, can ultimately produce more terrorists weeks from now, months from now, and produce a new, larger generation that isn't mobilized right now.

So the problem isn't just the tactics of how you identify friend from foe. This is the narrow part of the problem. The bigger issue is how do you separate politically the population of the Palestinians who are not terrorists from Hamas, and how do you stop that local population from joining Hamas in the future. That's why we need a new conception, which right from the beginning joins the military operation with a serious political plan to have a pathway to Palestinian statehood.

This would create a real opportunity, a real alternative for the Palestinian people. Otherwise, they've got nothing, no choice, but to end up supporting Hamas.

SANCHEZ: Robert Pape, we have to leave the conversation there, but it's really a fascinating way to look at the future, potentially, of that region. Thank you so much for being with us.

PAPE: Thank you, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Coming up, UNICEF is calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza. They're warning the lack of clean water there is on the verge of becoming a catastrophe. A spokesperson from UNICEF will join us in just moments.