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Trump Takes the Stand in New York Civil Fraud Trial; Judge Tells Trump to Answer Questions, Not Give Speeches; Judge to Trump, You Can Attack Me, But Answer the Question. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired November 06, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to our special live coverage. You are looking right now, this is inside the courtroom, Donald Trump sitting down with his attorneys as you are getting just consider it kind of like a pool spray. We have seen this in other moments. The cameras are allowed in for a moment to kind of scene set each day in the courtroom.

This is Donald Trump moments before he is set to take the stand and be under oath to take questioning from the judge in this civil fraud trial in New York.

As he was entering court a moment ago, he spoke to the reporters and cameras in the hallway. He attacked the case, he attacked the judge, he attacked attorney general and then made a campaign speech.

Now, what happens next could decide his future as a businessman, the future of his empire, business empire, and also impact his presidential aspirations, and the other criminal cases where he is a defendant in.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And, again, those pictures that you are looking at, what is different about them this time, and we've seen it before, is this time, he is minutes away from taking the witness stand himself where he will be under oath. We are standing by for the minute that happens.

We have people inside the courtroom relaying every piece of information to outside the courtroom. Outside the courthouse right now, CNN Anchor Kaitlan Collins and CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid.

Kaitlan, it's all about to start.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and I count five attorneys for the former president sitting there. Of course, three are next to him, then I saw two more at the back of the room. And those people you saw on the sides there, those were several of the political aides to the former president who are working on his 2024 campaign, just to give you a sense of who is actually in the room for this testimony before Trump moves from where he is sitting there to actually getting on the witness stand in just a few moments from now.

And you are right, Kate, we did just hear from the former president. He came out and spoke, as he typically does, before he goes into the courtroom. It likely won't be the last time that we hear from him in front of the cameras today, though, of course, what he says in front of the camera is a lot different than what he actually says once he's under oath. And that is what we are watching so closely for.

And it was noticeable that we also heard from the attorney general here, Letitia James. She has not always been at every single appearance here in every day of this trial, but she did come out, she was on these steps just behind us a few moments ago. And I should note that she was basically predicting exactly what Trump was about to say.

Right now, you can see he is -- we are told that he is being sworn in, he is taking that oath before he gets on the stand. And so that's really the big question here, is what he says once he is actually under oath. Because what so much of this is focused on is who directed who to make these statements, these statements that the judge has already ruled that were found to be inflated, that they used to secure those loans.

Trump's defense of that has been, well, no one was actually hurt here. These businesses were repaid their loans. There's no victim, he claims, except for himself here. And the question is who he actually pushes the blame on to, because you've seen his adult sons testifying who were put in charge of the Trump Organization when he took office, Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr. Donald Trump Jr. looking to the -- an outside accounting firm that they hired, Eric Trump saying that that also was not his responsibility. That's going to be a question for Trump, the structure of the Trump Organization. And so that is notable here, of course.

And I should note that we did hear from Letitia James. I want to play just a few moments of what she said before she went inside this courthouse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LETITIA JAMES, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: This morning, Mr. Trump will take the stand in our trial against him, the Trump Organization and other defendants. Mr. Trump has repeatedly and consistently misrepresented and inflated the value of his assets.

And before he takes the stand, I am certain that he will engage in name calling and taunts and race-baiting and call this a witch hunt. But at the end of the day, the only thing that matters are the facts and the numbers. And numbers, my friends, don't lie. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Of course, Kate and John, about ten minutes after she made those remarks, Trump came in front of the cameras.

[10:05:03] He called her a racist attorney general, something that he has said time and time again, not just about her, also about the district attorney here in Manhattan who is also black. That is a familiar refrain of his.

She was essentially predicting exactly what he was going to say. We'll see how this goes throughout the day once he's actually under that, under oath and on the stand.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Kaitlan and Paula Reid, I just looked our colleagues inside the courtroom saying that Donald Trump is now on the stand being sworn in. Donald Trump is now sitting down for this.

BERMAN: He's already started answering questions. He's already started facing questions from the state's attorneys at this point.

Paula Reid, let's get right to you. What are you hearing from inside the courtroom?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's already been asked a couple of preliminary questions, what was his role in a certain year. I mean, this is the stuff that you'd ask any witness before beginning testimony. And we expect that most of the questions today will focus on the valuation of his properties, properties like 40 Wall Street, his Doral Golf Club, and also Mar-a-Lago. And that's one that's really sensitive for him.

We heard him already talk about this as he was entering the courtroom. The judge has found that the value of that property was around $18 million, something that Trump and his lawyers have taken issue with.

But the challenge for Trump, while he is under questioning by prosecutors, is to stay composed and stick to the script that his lawyers have guided him through during their preparation. And that is to emphasize that there were disclaimers in all of these valuations and also emphasize the fact that valuing properties is an art, not a science.

But this case gets to something very close to his heart, which is his identity as a business tycoon. We know he has pretty thin skin. So, this is a test for him, if he can remain composed.

We know he can do this because he has taken the witness stand before, many, many years ago, long before he was a candidate for the White House. But right now, while he's on the witness stand, his legal and political interests diverge and we will all be watching to see if he can keep his answers concise, honest and hopefully along the lines of what his lawyers have prepared him to say.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Good, important, key questions. Paula Reid, Kaitlan Collins, outside the courthouse for us bringing us updates as they come in.

CNN's Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig is here. Karen Agnifilo is with us as well.

One thing, Elie -- and oh, Jeremy Saland. Sorry, Jeremy, I would never, ever, ever forget you.

One thing that Kaitlan brought up is one of the defenses that they could be leaning on is that there are no victims here. We've discussed this a lot. How much weight do you put in that?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, it matters a bit for some of the counsels. And remember, there are seven different claims here -- again, we're in civil court, not criminal court -- seven different claims made by the attorney general's office here. The judge has already ruled for the A.G. against Donald Trump on one of them, something called persistent fraud. For that claim, it doesn't matter whether there are actual victims who are out of pocket or not. And I think that's one of the reasons the judge ruled against Trump on that one claim.

But some of these other six claims, it does matter whether there's a victim or not. What you're going to hear, I'm sure, what we'll hear from Trump on the stand, is that these loans, these enormous loans that he took out from Deutsche Bank and other banks, were not only repaid, but repaid with interest.

And so the argument -- and this is an atmospheric argument, but for some of the claims, it's also a legal argument, the argument is, how could there be victims of people not only got repaid, but made profits?

BERMAN: Why do you begin the questioning? And I'm basing this on what Paula Reid just said out loud on our air that he was facing questions about the structure of the business. Why would you start asking him about the structure of the business?

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: If I was the prosecutor or the attorney general in this case, I would start with asking him questions that you already know the answer to and that get him comfortable answering questions. You don't want to shut him down.

So, you want to talk about things like, did you appoint your son as trustee. Yes, of course. How about Allen Weisselberg? Yes, I did that as well. Those types of questions that he can't disagree with, they don't hurt in any way.

And it also just -- you still have to prove your case. So, get those facts proven, get him comfortable answering questions, and then you get to the harder ones.

BOLDUAN: Does it also lean into the -- start moving towards leaning into the defense that we heard from his sons, which was this was below my pay grade. Once you talk about kind of the structure of the Trump Organization, how much did Donald Trump know, is it going to be as easy, do you think, for him to say, I knew nothing about it than his sons? And in doing so, is there potential he could implicate his own sons here?

HONIG: Well, I don't know that he'll directly implicate his own sons, but I think that this questioning is important because you always sort of start with, who are you, what do you do? But they're also establishing, you're the boss, you're the boss. And I think they're trying to do a couple of things. One, make it harder for him to run from this, and, two, perhaps play to his ego.

It's going to be hard for Donald J. Trump, former president to say, yes, I'm not really aware of what's going on.

BOLDUAN: I'm not involved in this.

[10:10:00]

HONIG: Not his style, not his style, yes.

BERMAN: How long do you think that the state's attorneys will go with process here before they start to lean in?

AGNIFILO: Not long. I think they're going to get into the heart of this very quickly. And I think for Elie's point, right, that this is who he is, this is what he believes in.

And I don't think it's going to be very hard to get him to start to get a little combative with the state, right, especially if you start talking about his kids. You know, he gets a little bit defensive, I think, over his kids and his monetary worth, his net worth.

So, I think they're going to start very quickly going into the actual facts of the case here. And, you know, Michael Cohen, if you credit his testimony, don't forget, he specifically said, we knew what Trump wanted. Trump would say, oh, this came back at $1 billion. No, I'm worth $4 billion. Go back and make the numbers fit that. And so if you credit Michael Cohen, I think it's going to be hard for him to walk away from those numbers.

BOLDUAN: There're going to be some really interesting things that are going to play out.

Let's read this together, because one of our colleagues in the courtroom has some details on the first questions coming at Donald Trump. The first question the state asked Donald Trump on the stand is to confirm that he was the director, president and chairman of the Trump Organization from '81 to 2017, leading to a series of questions working to establish how the trust at the crux of the trial was set up.

He was also asked why he appointed Allen Weisselberg as trustee of the trust. Quote, well, he'd been with the company a long time and he was somebody I had confidence in, Trump said. Quote, he did a good job. I mean, he was very good at what he did. When asked if he trusted the CFO, he said, I did. Yes.

HONIG: Yes. So, it's a standard type opening. What they're doing with this line of questioning is a couple things. First, they're getting them warmed up. They're asking him a series of clean, factual questions. They're asking him questions --

BOLDUAN: Like the equivalent of like, what is your name? HONIG: Yes, essentially. All right, you say that when you swear in. Yes, what do you do? But the questions that he can't quibble with, the questions that he can't take issue with, they're also asking a series of questions that they know they have backed up with documents or just established fact.

And, again, they're driving home the point of, you are the boss, you are the Trump, whose name is on Trump Tower. That's you. You're the guy in charge. So, I think that's what they're starting with here strategically.

BERMAN: And, Karen, for a judge, not a jury, how does that impact the way the state chooses to go about this?

AGNIFILO: Well, they have to prove their case, and they have to prove each and every element of what the charges are here. So, they're going to continue to do that irrespective of judge or jury. But there's also an appellate record that's being created here on both sides, because this will be appealed regardless, given the fact that there's already been a finding for the first count, the persistent fraud count, and then the other six counts, we'll see what the judge does with that. Either way, it's going to be appealed.

Hold on guys, let's get back out to the courthouse. Paula Reid is standing by. Paula, you're getting a better read of what's going on inside the courtroom. Bring us up to date.

REID: And that's exactly right. The former president answering questions right now about how he structured his business and the trust after he left the White House. And at one point he said that, for a time, he was thinking about going back into business.

But then he started to view a little bit from the actual substance of this case into his own feelings about political bias, what he describes as political bias in this case. He says that he was actually still in politics more than he realized, even after he left the White House saying, other than you and every other Democratic district attorney, attorney general and U.S. attorney were coming after me from 15 sides.

That is how he has tried to paint himself in this case as a martyr, as a victim, a target of political bias. That is the first time we have seen the sort of campaign rhetoric so far on the witness stand.

Now, we'll see if he leaves it there or if he takes it even further attacking anyone else. But, currently, he is being questioned by the government and directed this specific comment at that prosecutor who works for the U.S. attorney general, Letitia James.

BERMAN: Paula, while we have you, any sense that the judge or the state attorney objected when Trump started to veer into the political there? Did they say anything or did it just continue?

REID: So, we're looking -- we have a great team inside that's giving Kaitlan and I minute by minute, second by second updates. I don't see any indication that the judge or the prosecutor objected. Now, arguably, they're talking about the structure of the trust for his business, the transition out of the White House. It could be fair to say that, all right, he's still somewhat in bounds, even though he took a shot at the attorney general, and they probably also know there could be more of this coming.

[10:15:03]

So, they may be trying to pull their punches until something really gets out of line.

But no indication that anyone objected so far, and we're continuing to watch, second by second, as he gets these questions and as he answers them.

BOLDUAN: We're going to get back to Paula very shortly, as obviously the questioning is underway.

Let's bring in Jeremy Saland on this. Jeremy, the fact that as Paula was talking about, he, for the first time, is kind of leaning in and talking about his feelings of political bias, that he was -- the Democratic attorney generals we're coming after him from 15 different sides, is how Paula said, that he put it in the court from the stand since he left the White House. Just the fact that it's already this early in, it's making its way on the stand into his testimony.

JEREMY SALAND, FORMER MANHATTAN PROSECUTOR: You know, I would let him go and do that because you know it's going to get him excited. You know it's going to get him riled up and angry and agitated. And it really has nothing to do with the case, if anything at all. So, allow him to do that, get some off course, and it kind of puts him in a place where you want him to be potentially.

And it's not having some benefit to him before Judge Engoron. It's not doing anything for him. It's not adding to any of the elements of what he's being accused of. It's not going to his liability. It's just sort of taking him off course.

And I would just add, too, that we were discussing before, his statement that no one lost money, people made money. One of the themes of all of these offenses that we're looking at, for example, falsifying business records, is the intent to defraud or deceive or injure another person. That doesn't require that that person or that partner, that company lost money at all.

And, in fact, one would argue that just because they didn't lose money, they still could have earned or made more money. So, there is that injury, there is that damage. That's really Donald Trump controlling or dictating the conversation. And if I'm the attorney general, I'm changing that.

BERMAN: All right. Jeremy, everyone stand by for a second. Let's get right back to Paula Reid, who I think has an important update. Paula?

REID: So, we're seeing a little bit of the challenge for former President Trump on the witness stand already. In response to one of the questions, he launches into a pretty lengthy explanation of what has happened in this case, what he's going to testify coming up.

It has to do with certain bankers that they brought in to help them with these valuations, but he went on so long that the judge actually interrupted him and asked him to, quote, not give speeches in response to questions, saying that he wants to keep things moving.

This is also something that actually came up with both of his sons. Sometimes there were yes or no questions that they got and instead of answering yes or no, they would launch into speeches.

So, it is difficult sometimes for former President Trump and certain members of his family to be concise. This is a man who is used to having rallies, people who came to hear him speak at length. So, this is a challenge for him, the judge giving him some instruction to keep it concise, keep it focused and not give speeches.

So, this will be a challenge for him. We just got started. And already the judge is asking him to move things along quickly.

COLLINS: And I think part of that is also, I mean, not a surprise in any way, shape or form. I mean, we both questioned Trump for years at the White House. He doesn't like to just answer yes or no to questions. If he doesn't like the question he's being asked, he wants to kind of provide his own explanation.

Certainly, when it's something like this, Paula, that's obviously at the heart of what is everything that means anything to Trump, his identity, his real estate empire, and what that looks like. And so I think that's another part of this. It's not surprising at all that that's how he's going to respond.

I think the judge knows that going into it. We'll see how patient he is with the former president as he's continuing to answer those questions, maybe not the question that he gets asked. He wants to answer his own question that he prefers that he was asked.

REID: Exactly. It seemed that he wanted to get a lot of points into a very direct question. And the judge just wants to make sure that this is controlled, that this is focused, concise, and that he doesn't try to turn this into a campaign speech.

This -- as you noted, though, this is going to be difficult not only for the judge, but for the former president. Because, again, this is so personal to him, as you noted. This is about his business, his family's livelihood, and, again, this persona that he has established as a billionaire tycoon. Kate and John?

BERMAN: Thank you, Paula, very much, Kaitlan, you too.

And just so everyone understands what's happening here, the reason Paula and Kaitlan are on their phones right there is we have people inside the courtroom -- there are no cameras allowed inside the courtroom, unfortunately, but the people inside the courtroom in real time are relaying the information to Paula and to Kaitlan on the courtroom steps so we can get basically in real time what's happening inside the courtroom. You're going to see a lot of people reading off their phones for the next hour or so. You're going to see us going back to them on the courthouse steps a lot in the next hour. That's just the way it's going to be.

I want to ask about what they just reported, which is the judge jumping in, I don't know, 12 minutes?

BOLDUAN: I mean, minutes in.

BERMAN: Yes, ten minutes in a testimony, jumping in for the first time and saying don't give speeches.

[10:20:01]

But it wasn't an objection from the state, it was the judge.

HONIG: Yes, judges can do that on their own. This is the struggle for discipline that this judge is going to be dealing with throughout the day. On the one hand you want the witness to get a chance to answer the question but you cannot let the witness veer off course or give soliloquies.

It's really important to understand when a person is on the witness stand, in a trial, it is a tightly controlled, narrowly defined exercise. This is certainly not a campaign speech. This is not a social media post. It's not even a debate where it's point- counterpoint. It is question and it's supposed to be responsive answer. And if the answer goes beyond the scope of the question, there can be an objection. The judge can shut him down. If the person the witness goes on a bender, then the judge can say, as we sort of predicted earlier --

BOLDUAN: Role-playing.

HONIG: it wasn't a hard thing to predict but the judge can shut it down and strike the testimony.

So, I think the judge is trying to not escalate the temperature here but he has to keep discipline on this courtroom.

BOLDUAN: But still it is significant because there are different paths that any witness and any legal team can take when the star witness is taking the stand. It's ranged from leading up to this moment, just to remind everyone, Karen, it was get on the stand and plead the Fifth and not say anything no matter if that can be -- you know, a negative inference can be taken.

We're going to go back to Paula. The control room is telling me there's more happening in the courtroom. Let's go back to Paula Reid. Paula, what are you learning?

REID: So, for the first time on the stand, Trump -- for the first time on the stand, so far, Trump has really taken a shot at the judge, suggesting, quote, I'm sure the judge will rule against me because he always rules against me. My law license is pretty dusty but that is not something that witnesses are advised to say on the stand even if that's the way you feel.

We're learning from our colleagues inside the courtroom who are giving us these updates that the judge then asked Trump's lawyer if that comment was necessary to answer the question that Trump had been asked. The judge even said, according to these notes, that, look, you can attack me, do whatever you want, but answer the question.

And that's similar to what we heard from the judge a short time ago, instructing the former president not to filibuster, not to give speeches, but to answer the question that he is being asked by the attorney general's office.

He also noted that the comment Trump made, that he always rules against him, is not true. And, once again, he asked Trump to, quote, please just answer the question.

So, big open question has been, Kaitlan and I have been talking about it, since this started this morning, how will Trump be on the stand? Will he be focused? Will he be concise? Will he stick to the script that his lawyers have given him, which is just to talk about how subjective valuations are? And it does appear that he is creating somewhat of a sideshow, giving little speeches and even attacking the judge.

So, we'll see how this continues.

COLLINS: What's notable here is that the judge is not just speaking to Trump's attorneys. I mean, he's got five attorneys in the room, three who are -- two who are seated up there with him. He's speaking directly to Trump when he's saying this.

And this is actually a refrain that we've heard from the judge here saying, you know, you can go after me all you want, but don't go after my staff. I mean, we have to remember this is a judge that Trump has already off on bad footing with because he's been fined $15,000 by him for violating the gag order not to attack the law clerk who was actually seated to the right of the judge in there today.

And I think that's what's notable here is that the judge is taking that moment to speak directly to him and say, you can attack me all you want, but you do have to actually answer the question that's at play.

So, obviously, he's only been under oath for about 22 minutes, Kate and John, and this is already -- we're seeing the sparring happening back and forth between the judge and Trump. Of course, we do expect it to continue as this testimony goes on.

BOLDUAN: Thanks guys, we're going to get back to you obviously very shortly.

Karen, what do you hear in this? I mean, now he's going at it. Things are beginning to go off the rails. They don't necessarily remain off the rails, but he's already attacking the judge.

AGNIFILO: Look, he that's his tactic. He has been consistent in attacking the judge or the court staff all along. And I think he's trying to bait the judge into creating some kind of a reversible record.

BOLDUAN: A total spectacle, yes.

AGNIFILO: Yes. I mean, that's what he has to worry about is the judge is only human. And if he loses his temper or cuts him off or doesn't do anything that it could potentially create some kind of appellate issue.

I don't think that would happen. I'm sure this judge has been preparing for this the way Trump has been preparing for this. But I wouldn't be surprised if that's a tactic here.

BERMAN: You know, Alan Dershowitz told Rolling Stone in an interview, we read the quote earlier this morning, that one of the things you can do if you don't think it's going your way is antagonize the judge to a point of causing reversible errors. Maybe that's what we're seeing.

HONIG: Yes, I think he's aware of that. And his response, so far, he has a couple of times tried to step in and take the temperature down. But he hasn't taken the bait. He hasn't yelled at Trump as of 10:24 A.M.

Another thing to keep in mind, the fact that there's not a jury in this case really changes the atmosphere.

BOLDUAN: Right, everything.

[10:25:00]

HONIG: Yes, it changes everything here. Because if you had a jury, 12 lay people, regular civilians, you would have to come down much tougher on this as a judge. You cannot allow this kind of spare comment if there's a jury.

BOLDUAN: Okay. That's interesting.

HONIG: Because let's remember, the judge is the jury here, the judge is deciding. And so in the judge's mind, he may well have calculated, look, I can filter out the cheap shots from the stuff that matters, therefore I'm going to give him a little more leeway.

BOLDUAN: I will say, as obviously not a giant legal mind over here, I would -- knowing that it was just a judge, it was a judge trial, not a jury trial, I was inclined to think initially that he would actually crack down harder, but, no, I understand what you're saying, because he's the jury, he can let him spout off if he wants because he can take into account what he needs to take into account.

HONIG: Yes. By far, you have to be really careful with lay jurors. I mean, it's scary being on a jury. You don't want to be intimidated. You don't want to be distracted. But the judge says, look, I'm the one making this decision, so I can filter stuff out myself.

BERMAN: All right. We're getting much more information in from what's going on inside the courtroom. Obviously, there's a legal angle to it, there's a political angle. We're going to talk to some political analysts because I think that's probably necessary at this point based on what we're seeing. Much more straight ahead.

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