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Trump Testifies In The New York Civil Fraud Trial; Judge Instructs Trump To Respond To Inquiries Rather Than Make Speeches; During Testimony, Trump And Judge Argue Frequently; Interview With Former Manhattan Prosecutor Jeremy Saland. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired November 06, 2023 - 10:30:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Happening now, behind those doors, Donald Trump has been testifying in the civil fraud trial against him. He's been on the stand for about 25 minutes or so. He has been admonished. By the judge. He has criticized the judge. The judge has told him to stick to answering the questions in this all within the first minutes of testimony.

Let's get to Kristen Holmes standing by outside Trump Tower. How does what we've heard so far align with what the Trump plans were this weekend?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, this is who Donald Trump is. And one thing to keep in mind here is that Donald Trump actually does believe that he is a victim, which is why it is that he starts answering these questions like this, that he is being unfairly attacked. These aren't things he just says in public. There are also things he says in private.

Now, one of the things I was told that he was prepped to do was to remain calm. Now, whether or not he's going to be able to continue to do that without lashing out or yelling, that's what we're going to be watching very closely because Donald Trump can get riled up, and he often gets riled up. So, lawyers did not want him doing that.

Remember, we keep talking about how much is at stake here. It is not just the fact that it is his brand, his business, his personal identity that is wrapped up in this Trump business here in New York, but it's also the fact that anything that he says under oath on the stand can be used against him in the future, and this is not the only trial that he has. There are a number -- four criminal trials, and we know that Donald Trump is also prepping for those as well. They are trying to figure out how exactly to run a campaign while he is constantly in court.

And one of that they are planning on doing is essentially running that campaign from the courthouse. And that means that even when he is on the stand, he is going to keep with his messaging. And that's not just answering the questions, but it's his messaging that he is a victim, that this is persecution against him because of who he is. And that does line up with what we have heard from Donald Trump and his legal strategy. There are two sides of Donald Trump's legal strategy. One of the most important things they do, delay, delay, delay, when it comes to those trials, trying to push them back. The other thing they do is spin the public narrative. And that is what you are seeing Donald Trump do now, and you'll likely see him go to the cameras during any break because he's going to want to continue pushing his messaging out there as he sits there and gives his testimony.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely. Kristen Holmes is outside Trump Tower for us.

And part of this strategy is not only just going on monologues, it seems, from the stand somewhat, but also not even answering the questions, which is what has brought about this admonishment from the judge. Let me bring in David Chalian, CNN's political director on this. And here's a quote for you, David, just showing, as Kristen was saying, how the legal and the political, in terms of the campaign, they've become the same thing.

Here's the quote from Trump. "I'm sure the judge will rule against me because he always rules against me", says Trump. That sounds very familiar from what we've heard from the campaign trail.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: You hear it all the time in the campaign trail. And the judge, of course, as you guys noted earlier, said that's not factually true to Donald Trump who was on the stand there. You can't separate these two. This is the dominant frontrunner for the Republican nomination, and the currently leading candidate to be elected president next year running against the incumbent Joe Biden, according to recent polls, and yet he finds himself, on this day, in this courtroom, in this historic nature.

And, guys, I don't think it is, despite, his legal challenges that he is still maintaining this lead, I think it is in part because of them. We have seen Donald Trump be able to utilize his legal peril, his legal challenges as a fortifying force for Republicans. And that is what we see.in all the public data out there, which is this fortified world of Republicans around Trump, both in the primary context and how that benefits him in a general election context, whereas Joe Biden does not have that fortified force among Democrats. So, these trials are playing directly into his hands here.

BOLDUAN: OK. David, stand by. Let's get back out to the courthouse. Paula Reid's got some more detail from inside. What's happening?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: This is getting pretty heated. The judge asking Trump's lawyer, "Can you control your client? This is not a political rally." This is coming from our colleagues who are inside the courtroom watching this live. The judge forcing Trump's lawyer, Chris Kise, to talk to the former president.

[10:35:00]

The former president, we're reading here, apparently waved his arms at any suggestion of taking a 10-minute break. He is sitting back in his chair, we're told, just pursing his lips in that, sort of, classic Trump smile. Trump's lawyer is assuring the judge that their client, "Understands the rules." The judge shot back and said, "Well, he doesn't abide by them."

Now, apparently, they're back into questioning. But this is getting pretty heated. If there was any question about whether the former president could remain composed on the stand, refrain from attacking, prosecutors, the judge, well, it's pretty clear. He and the judge sort of getting into it here. The judge is especially frustrated with Trump's inability to focus and his lack of brevity.

I mean, something that we've all seen many times with the former president. But when you're on the witness stand, it's different. This is not social media. This is not a campaign rally. This is the judge's courtroom, and he has repeatedly asked the former president not to engage in, "Speeches or essays." It looks like they're continuing with questioning, they're not taking a break, and the former president's lawyer assuring the judge that his client understands the rules.

BERMAN: All right. Paula, keep us posted because this is, as you said, getting interesting and getting heated and may come to a head soon.

Elie Honig, you know, this is now several times the judge has gone back and asking Trump's attorney, Christopher Kise, can you control your client?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY, AND FORMER FEDERAL AND NEW JERSEY STATE PROSECUTOR: Yes, I think it's interesting, by the way, that the judge is not directly speaking to Donald Trump, the witness, which he can do. Judges give instructions directly to witnesses all the time. He's --

BOLDUAN: What do you think is being done?

HONIG: I think he's trying to create some separation, some distance. I think the judge does not want to make this Judge Engoron versus Donald Trump. And so, that's why the Trump -- the judge is saying to Trump's lawyers, can you all do anything? Can you please control him?

It's really important to understand, the judge has fairly limited enforcement powers here. Usually, the fact that there's somebody sitting up high on the bench in a black robe is more than enough to get a witness to comply, to listen. I mean, the courtroom's set up that way for a reason. But when you have a witness like this who is just dead set on it, you can admonish, you can warn, you can strike testimony, meaning take it off the record, but ultimately, that's really all that the judge can do. And so, this will be an interesting dance here between the judge and Trump that 36 minutes in and it's already at a pretty high temperature.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Well, there are some other statements that are coming out. I mean, there -- we're getting so much so quickly. I'm going to take a couple steps back to go forward because they're -- during questioning as well, it seems Donald Trump has hinted at what the future -- their future defense, I guess, during this line of questioning may be.

This is full screen five or six, just for the control room, where Donald Trump says, when it comes to -- he says, we're going to explain that as this trial goes along. This crazy trial goes along. Because we're bringing in the bankers, very big bankers. They'll explain exactly what their process is. They were not really documents that the banks paid much attention to. They looked at the deal.

This kind of -- Jeremy Saland is with us as well. This speaks to the facts and figures that need to -- that is part of this line of questioning that they're trying to have. And Donald Trump saying that he thinks that he's going to be bringing in big bankers to prove his case.

JEREMY SALAND, FORMER MANHATTAN PROSECUTOR: I don't know what big bankers means, but --

BOLDUAN: Exactly.

SALAND: -- the bottom line here, this is playing all into the attorney general's hands. I mean, this is what they want. They're not here to debate politics and what's going to happen outside the courtroom and in an election. They're looking at the four corners of that courtroom and whether they can prove their case. And going on tirades and talking about big bankers and going after the judge does nothing for his credibility, does nothing to dispute the allegations, does not bring new facts and evidence into play.

So, all of this really hurts Donald Trump. But you don't bring me on to be a mental health professional, but I do wonder whether or not the former president understands the gravity of what he's doing. And I think also at the same time, he is more afraid of this case because he thinks that the other matters, he's never going to see a day in jail and it doesn't really matter. This is his name, this is his future, but he's going off the rails from what we're hearing about inside the courtroom.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: All right. let's get back to the courthouse steps, Kaitlan Collins is there. And I understand, Kaitlan, things have not improved inside the courtroom.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR, THE SOURCE AND CNN CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: No, they haven't, and it's not really that surprising. But so much of it is how this is proceeding with Trump being asked these questions, not giving a direct answer, certainly not in the judge's estimation of what's happening there. And he is getting incredibly frustrated. He just removed some of Trump's comments from the records where Trump was bragging about how much cash he had.

The judge, essentially having, groaning here. Saying that he is not only being filibustered by the witness, the former president who is on the stand right now, but also, he is saying, by Chris Kise, Trump's attorney who is in the room. And the judge is getting incredibly frustrated. He has now admonished Trump in the middle of his statement.

[10:40:00]

Now, that has happened, I believe, five to six times. Trump has only been inside that courtroom for about 39 minutes here. And I think that is what's notable here, is just how quickly this has devolved into a bit of a chaotic situation.

What we do know is that the prosecutors don't seem to be getting into the middle of this and what's happening between the judge and Trump and Trump's attorney, and instead are continuing with the questioning. I think one really interesting aspect of this is obviously, what's at the heart of this is that Trump overvalued and inflated his assets to get more favorable terms on his loans.

Trump is essentially trying to claim that actually these properties were undervalued and that sometimes he questioned the values of what was on these statements, these financial statements, saying that it was actually less than what he thought it should be. That is not what the judge has already found here. They have already found him liable for fraud. The question is how much he has to pay in damages and he seems to be arguing something different.

Of course, the judge is also what matters here. The judge getting frustrated with Trump's questioning. There's a jury inside that room, John and Kate. It is up to the judge here. He's already off on bad terms with the judge, and now it does not seem to be, like, the former president is trying to get on his good side in any shape or form.

BERMAN: Stand by for one minute, Kaitlan, because what Kaitlan is saying there is interesting. He is being sued here by the state because, you know, for fraud, for inflating the value of his properties. He's already been found liable for fraud. The state's attorneys have been basically asking him about his valuations. And he's saying if anything, they were too low at this point. He's saying that under oath on the witness stand when he's already been found liable for fraud for overvaluing them.

HONIG: It is a very risky tact to take here. He's not even saying, the values we submitted were accurate. He's saying they were vastly understated, which is taking a very big swing. I also think the AG's office is setting up a little bit of a trap, perhaps, for Donald Trump, or a tension between two different defenses that we're hearing.

Do you know or do you not know? Because on the one hand, he's saying, well, we're going to bring in the big bankers. They're the ones who do everything. On the other hand, he's saying, but I know what it's all worth. It's worth a billion dollars, Mar-a-Lago, for example. So, those two defenses are, sort of, in tension with one another.

BOLDUAN: I'm just looking more to this point, kind of, what he's saying -- his take on his -- his description of his involvement in these financial statements. And it seems somewhat from the quotes coming out like a word salad on the stand, I'll read just some of them for you, Karen. I thought the apartment was high. We changed it. He said -- earlier he said he thought that the values

were off on his financial statements at times, both high and low. Ultimately, he said Mar-a-Lago was underestimated, as we've discussed, as we heard him say outside of court. And then he goes on, I thought 40 Wall Street was very underestimated for its tremendous value.

The attorney -- one of the-- for the state, Kevin Wallace, one of the attorneys, appeared visibly surprised when Trump said he perceived both high and low valued assets on financial statements. Pausing to review a transcript before asking Trump to evaluate, to elaborate.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, really what he's doing is he's saying, I was familiar. I looked at the documents. I thought some were high, some were low. That's very different than what Don Jr. and Eric said, right? They were basically saying, well, that was somebody else. I'm not really sure. Right? What Trump is saying, no, no, I knew. I thought this was too high. I thought this was too low. He is admitting here that he was intimately involved in the valuation. I think that is as significant as whatever his answers of what the numbers are.

BERMAN: And again, we're going to go back to the courthouse any second to get an update about what's taking place inside there. But if -- John Avlon is with us. I wanted to ask John something about this. Because Trump has clearly gone in with a political strategy here, John, which is to make a scene, one way or the other, and that may have legal implications. And he may think that's smart. And he may think that plays in a primary. But there is this "New York Times" poll that came out today that asked the question, what if Trump is convicted? What if Trump is convicted?

If Trump is convicted, now this is a civil trial. This is about being found liable or not, but convicted in the criminal cases against him, and you can see a continuum there. If he's convicted, then he would lose to Joe Biden, this "New York Times" poll, we have a graphic of this somewhere if we can shoot it, by nine points in six swing states right now. He's actually leading Trump -- Biden by three points in those swing states. But if he's convicted or found, you know, the decisions go against him. Biden, leading by nine, that's a 12-point swing if the law goes against him.

JOHN AVLON, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. And I think it's typical of Trump and Trump's current incarnation of the Republican Party to focus on the primary at the expense of the general election. I think the larger point you're making, of course, is that this is real. This isn't about playing to the court of public opinion. It is about an actual court with a real judge who is the decider.

[10:45:00]

And you know, Kellyanne Conway, his former advisor infamously once said, no one makes you take an oath before you go on television. And Donald Trump has taken that to a lifestyle, to an art form. Everything is deflect. Everything is denial.

And all of a sudden under oath, he's operating within parameters of the truth. These are parameters that most people accept as a matter of course, as a matter of honor, as a matter of character in their daily lives. Donald Trump doesn't. And there's real legal jeopardy behind his instinct, his impulse to lie, to attack, to a divide. It's clear he's hoping to provoke the judge. We'll see if the judge remains cool and keeps his cool because that's essential politically and legally. But he's unfamiliar with these kinds of constraints, these reality- based constraints, and that's part of the drama we're watching play out today.

BOLDUAN: Yes, I'm also really interested in just what information is coming out, be it coaxed, in admissions or denials from the stand about what he knew about what he's already been decided he is liable for, which is repeated and persistent fraud with regard to his business empire. What's coming out amidst the chaos and the political statements, it's all happening as we speak in real time.

We're going to take a quick break. We're going to get back to the court as we got more details coming in from our reporters inside the courtroom. Please stick with us.

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[10:50:00]

BERMAN: All right. Happening now, Donald Trump on the witness stand in the civil fraud case against him. And we understand things might have just come to a head. Extraordinary tension inside that courtroom with Donald Trump really pushing and pushing and pushing the judge.

Let's get to Kaitlan Collins who's outside the courthouse. What just happened, Kaitlan?

COLLINS: Yes, it's not good when the judge, who is the decision maker here, because there is no jury has to tell the attorney that this is not a political rally, and is urging Chris Kise, Trump's lead attorney here, to control his client because he is so fed up that Trump is not answering with yes or no answers to these questions, and instead he is giving a lot of caveats and asking things about the statute of limitations here.

I just want to give you an example of just how fed-up Judge Engoron is with the witness, the former president. He just said to Chris Kise, that was a simple yes or no question. We got another speech. I beseech you to control him if you can. If you can't, I will. And the judge said, I will excuse him and I will draw every negative inference that I can.

That is incredibly notable here because essentially if Trump had pleaded the fifth or he had decided not to answer these questions or appear, it would be potentially damaging because it would be seen by the judge, who is the decision maker here, as an act not in good faith. So, Trump is on the stand today, but it is not going well for him. I mean, they have only been in that court for less than an hour. He has been on the stand for less than an hour now, John and Kate, and already the judge has admonished him several times. And the judge continues to speak directly to Chris Kise, but also to Trump himself. And Paula, I mean, as we are looking at this, it's very important that Trump be on this judge's good side, but he doesn't even appear to be trying to do that. And is instead, looking repeatedly back at his attorney, smirking whenever the judge is admonishing him.

REID: Yes, and I will say from the other side, Trump's lawyers are arguing that, "I would urge the court to take in all the information possible, including what the witness, Trump, has to say about the numbers on the statement. With this witness, I would suggest it's far more efficient to listen to what he has to say and take it in.

Now, Kaitlan, again, it's been a long time since I've been a practicing attorney, but typically defense attorneys are not advised to instruct the judge on how to handle his or her courtroom. But Chris Kise went on to say, "The court needs to hear what he has to say about these statements. He's describing to you about why there was no intent to mislead anyone with his answers." That's what he's doing.

Now, there was a lot of talk earlier this morning about whether the questions would get under Trump's skin. But it appears that Trump's gotten under the judge's skin a little bit. I mean, he is really trying to keep Trump focused. Yes, no answers. Granting him no leeway, even though he is notoriously long winded. That is a choice by the judge. But all of these, this back and forth between the government, the defense lawyers, the judge, it's taking up a lot of time. And that's been the judge's key point.

COLLINS: That is crucial --

REID: Exactly. We have one day to get through this, let's move this along. But so far, I mean, Kaitlan, it's fair to say this has really been a mess. You have the judge, right, going back and forth with the witness and the witness attorney, and the government arguing with the defense attorneys. It's just you haven't really gotten a lot of information. You haven't gotten to the core of this case. So, we'll see how it is going forward but so far it does not appear that the former president is very agitated, and he seems to be, in many ways, in command of this hearing right now.

COLLINS: Yes. And Kate and John, I think it's important that there's a question of when they were attacking the law clerk last week, they were frustrated that she and the judge were passing back notes or communicating. The judge, I -- a judge, I spoke with, a former judge, on Friday night said, maybe it's a strategy that they're going to try to use it on appeal. I mean, here, clearly, they are deflecting from answering the questions yes or no.

[10:55:00]

The question that the prosecutors are posing is quite simple. It's -- was this valued correctly? Was this undervalued? What did you make of this? And Trump is instead -- you know, doing what Trump does and going off script and answering these -- what he's not being asked here necessarily. But I should note, it is important. This is the only day he is scheduled to testify. The court is closed tomorrow because it's election day here in the United States. Whether or not they are going to need more time remains to be seen. But clearly, the judge is not very happy.

BOLDUAN: Yes, and we're just hearing from, another quote from inside the courtroom. Kaitlan and Paula, thank you so much. As Donald Trump just declared this an unfair trial from inside the courtroom? A very --

BOLDUAN: Do you have more information on that?

BERMAN: A very, very unfair. That is what the control room is telling me right now.

Elie, this must be by Donald Trump's design, how he is approaching this. I don't -- I'm not sure how else to read it.

HONIG: It has to be. I mean, this is a crash and burn strategy. First of all, I do wonder, Kaitlan made a good point, this is a one -- this is set for one day of testimony. Ordinarily, in a criminal case, you don't set time limits. The witness testifies as long as necessary. There seems to be an agreement here, it's going to be one day. I wonder if there's almost some sort of filibuster strategy. I'm just going to try to run out the clock with my own self-serving statement.

BOLDUAN: That's interesting.

HONIG: The other thing that I think is really important is the judge is now considering imposing sanctions of real consequence for the first time. No more just admonishments. No more sternly worded finger wagging. But when he's talking about if this continues, the judge said, according to our reporters there, then I will strike the testimony and draw a negative inference. That means I will assume that your testimony, Donald Trump, would have been as harmful as can be to you. And so, that's sort of the real weapon that the judge has here. He's warned of it, but that's his ultimate answer if this gets truly out of hand.

BERMAN: And Karen, again, clearly this was a strategy going in.

BOLDUAN: It has to be.

BERMAN: I mean, for all the talk about remaining calm and doing things. You know, Trump went in there today, it seems, to blow things up to an extent, or to poke the bear as much as he possibly could, the bear being the judge, and that may be what he wants to do. But as Ellie points out, this is going to get very expensive for him, and I'm not talking about, you know, contempt fines. The finding by this judge could be as much as $250 million. And if he takes as much of a negative inference as he wants or can from Trump's testimony, it's expensive testimony.

AGNIFILO: I mean, Trump must have made the calculation already that he's lost this case. And so, this way he can just go out and say, see, it was unfair. I told you it was unfair. And he's making his case in the courtroom and outside the courtroom. But Trump's used to not being -- he's used to being in charge. He's not used to having a judge in charge. And when you're in court, it's about the court. It's about the judicial system. There are rules. There are rules of evidence. And there's the judge in charge and he doesn't like that.

BOLDUAN: Can I -- I just want to read this quote one more time. And if you are in the courtroom, if the -- if a judge is speaking to you and says this, what your reaction would be as an attorney, "I beseech you to control him if you can. If you can't, I will. I will excuse him and draw every negative inference that I can. Do you understand that?" That's -- there's no parsing in that. I mean, what an attorney will do. What does Chris Kise to do here?

AGNIFILO: Right. I mean, as Elie said before, this is not a debate, right? This is not a speech. This is a court of law. There are rules of the road. There are -- there's evidence, there's rules of evidence that can come in. This is a serious business here. And the judge has to make sure that the record isn't cluttered. It's not filled with things that are inadmissible because that can also harm the record. And that's what the judge is trying to do. He's trying to protect the integrity of the record, of the case, even though he can filter out inappropriate things in his mind.

BOLDUAN: Right.

AGNIFILO: There's still a record here. And Trump needs to answer questions when he's asked a question. It's about the answer. It's not about what he wants to say.

BERMAN: All right. At this point, I think it's safe to say we're standing by to learn how much longer this judge will let this go on.

BOLDUAN: Yes, where his level of patience is at this point.

BERMAN: Trump on the stand right now. Very hostile situation inside that courtroom. Our live coverage continues right after this.

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