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Judge Threatens To Excuse Trump From Stand Over Combative Testimony; Now: Trump Back On The Stand After Clashing With Judge. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired November 06, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:40]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: All right, we're back. These are live pictures. They've taken a break in the courtroom. Donald Trump just exited the courtroom. That's what we have right now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Yes, it's interesting. Did he speak to cameras? Can you speak into my --

BOLDUAN: Oh, wait. Here, let's replay this. Hang on. We're going to replay this right now.

BERMAN: OK.

BOLDUAN: So we can all see it together what just happened?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Trump, how is it going in there?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, so Donald Trump there, making that motion, zipping his lips, not speaking, which is interesting in and of itself, given the tension that has been taking place inside that courtroom between Donald Trump saying things that the judge in this case thinks are out of line. He's been on the stand for about an hour now. They have been taking breaks around this time of day.

BOLDUAN: They have, that is true. And they've been really kind of brief breaks, but since we've seen in the past week, they've been taking some length of a break between 11:00 and 11:30. But, you know, we don't know the motivation of this break quite yet.

BERMAN: Let's get to Kaitlan Collins, who is on the courthouse steps. Kaitlan?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: I think this has gone about as poorly as it could potentially go. I mean, no one thought this was going to go well with Donald Trump on the stand, but the fact that they have just taken a break and they are less than an hour into this testimony and the judge has repeatedly admonished Trump and just threatened to remove him from the witness stand and said that he would draw every negative inference that he could. That's not good. That would essentially be Trump not appearing or taking the Fifth, because the judge's discretion here is quite high in making the determination, it's the highest, actually, in making the determination of what these damages are going to look like.

Because at the heart of this case, what's been decided is already known here that Trump is liable for fraud. The question is how liable and how much he is going to have to potentially pay here. And this is threatening everything that he's ever had, his entire real estate empire here. And you just saw Trump walk out of that courtroom. He did not speak. When a reporter asked a question about how it was going in there. Instead, he just made the motion to zip his lips.

Certainly that was not what was happening on the witness stand. That was to the incredible frustration of the judge, who was repeatedly telling Trump's attorney, telling Trump himself, just answer the question yes or no here, and Trump was not doing that. They are now in a 15-minute break. And I think the question is, is how much longer Trump is going to be on that witness stand, because the judge here clearly is fed up with how he's answering or not answering these questions.

And Paula, I think them taking a break here is a sign that the judge is really considering or reconsidering what the rest of this day is going to look like.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: There's a choice here that the former president and the judge had to make. They each had to decide how they were going to handle today's hearing. We knew that this was going to be dicey in parts, but this has been far more of a mess than I even had anticipated. The former president, clearly he does not want to answer these questions concisely, as the judge has directed him to do.

The judge also making a choice to admonish Trump every single time he goes off script. The former president is notoriously long winded. This was also an issue and his two sons were testifying yes or no questions would sometimes result in a rambling speech. But each of these interruptions by the judge sometimes setting off debates with counsel as well, just extends the amount of time that it is taking to get to the heart of this case, to get to questions about valuation, to actually gather evidence to determine the penalties in this case.

So it's really unclear why the former president is taking this particular pursuit. I guess it is clear that he's trying to turn this into a political event, right? His legal interests would be served by being brief, being concise, sticking to the script. But politically, he wants to paint himself as a martyr. And because the judge continues to cut him off, continues to spar with his lawyers, ask his lawyers to get him in line. The headline out of this so far is the Judge v. Trump, which politically, for Trump is advantageous.

Legally, though, particularly if the judge dismisses him and draws negative inferences, legally, that could spell some peril for the former president. COLLINS: But I mean, it would be -- that would -- if he actually does do that. And that is the judge's decision here. I mean, that would be the absolute worst way that this day could have gone for Donald Trump when it comes to how much he could potentially be responsible for, for damages here, right?

[11:05:05]

REID: Exactly. That's where the legal and the political diverge for him. Legally, that is horrible, right? We're looking at penalties. The ability of his business to operate in the state of New York. This is his family's livelihood. This is his identity. But he is also a candidate for the White House. And he appears to believe that the best way to handle this politically is to continue to antagonize, continue to paint himself as a martyr, the victim of political bias.

He has taken on the judge directly, repeatedly, throughout this hearing. That is a choice. And legally may not have great results, but politically, this appears to be the direction he wanted to take. Again, weren't sure at the beginning of the day how this would go. And so far it's been a mess, both for the Attorney General's Office. They're not getting evidence. Trump could be in additional legal peril. And again, the judge does not appear to have control over this witness.

COLLINS: Yes, John and Kate, they're on a 15-minute break. We are waiting to see what happens on the other side of that once Trump is back in that courtroom. We saw he just left there a few moments ago.

BOLDUAN: Exactly. So 10 more minutes and then we'll be back at it. And what we're going to be back at, very unclear considering how this has all unfolded. Jeremy Saland, let me bring you in on this. If you are Chris Kise, this is Donald Trump's lead attorney inside the courtroom. How are you trying to -- what are you trying to do in this break? How are you -- do you think this is going well in this upside down world of Donald Trump making political statements in the courtroom? Maybe something, maybe part of his strategy?

JEREMY SALAND, FORMER MANHATTAN PROSECUTOR: If I'm protecting my client in the courtroom as opposed to the Court of Public Opinion in an election, I am reminding my client that this is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not a criminal trial. This is a much lower standard of preponderance of the evidence. What also reminding my client is either you're going to say, I don't recall, or whatever it may be, but you're not only just alienating the judge, you're not only adversely impacting your credibility, the state, the Attorney General's Office will get much of this evidence in through other means or other people.

So you're only in the end harming yourself. Yes, you may win the battle of Public Opinion. Yes, you may get some great campaign donations. But at the end of the day, that's not what this is about. This is about your civil case and your exposure. So I am trying to rail or bring my client back in, get him on that tight leash, bring him back, not let him hang himself, proverbially. But I'd be very, very concerned because this judge is going to ultimately make a, you know, a determination.

And one other thing I would say if I was Judge Engoron, I would be giving Donald Trump ample leeway. I would be giving him ample space. I would allow him to do what he's going to do, and then at some point I'd pull that. But I think it's a little too early and hopefully it's a little more calm.

BERMAN: Just one point to make here, because Jeremy and Paula were both talking about the schism between the legal and the political. And maybe what Trump's doing is for political gain, and he may think it is for political gain, and maybe it does help in a primary. But there is some indication in new polling just out today that losses in the courtroom could hurt Donald Trump. The numbers you're looking at in the screen are from six battleground states from "The New York Times" poll.

Currently, Donald Trump leads Joe Biden by three points in these six battleground states. But if he's convicted this question was specifically about the election fraud trial, the federal case. But if he's convicted in that, Trump is then Biden leads by nine points in these six states.

So it's a 12-point political swing if these cases start to go against him. So just because Trump thinks it helps politically doesn't make it so. Back to the legal here, negative inference. This judge just threatened to take a negative inference from Trump's testimony today. Does that mean basically that his time on this, you know, Trump lost his time on the stand? Is that a fair way to look at it?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. If it comes to this. And this points up nicely, a difficult decision that the judge is going to have to make. Here we are, one hour in and all heck has already broken loose, and the judge has two options. One, he can continue to admonish and instruct and ask Chris Kise to try to control the witness and just keep up with that. The other is what you just said, which is the actual remedy with teeth. He can say, I will end this and I will draw every inference. I will assume the worst about what every one of your answers would be.

If I'm the judge, I'm thinking, is this really going to get better? Realistically, is Donald Trump really going to say, you know, I thought about it at the break and I'm going to bring it back in, or is this just going to keep going? And it's a very difficult decision for the judge. Is he going to pull the plug? He does have the power to do that.

BOLDUAN: Hold on one second. Let's get back over to Kristen Holmes who's outside Trump Tower. Two things, Kristen, I wanted to know from everything you heard about kind of the preparation leading up to this, is this what they had planned in Trump's team leading up to this? We've also heard from the judge that we have one day with this witness, but you have reporting about if this by chance would extend because of maybe the disaster they're seeing play out in the courtroom, how that really does hit up against the political calendar that Donald Trump has planned.

[11:10:02]

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, because tomorrow court is closed because it's Election Day. And Wednesday, Trump has a big political event. He is hosting his rally outside of Miami to counterprogram the Republican debate. And this is just one version here of what we are seeing is likely to be a juggling act between these multiple trial appearances and actually trying to run campaign.

Now, I do want to go back to the first thing you asked me there, which is, what is Donald Trump doing? And I think when you really watch what he is saying here, he is trying to use the Court of Public Opinion. He knows that people are watching this. Obviously, we're not watching on cameras, but we have reporters in the room. We are getting this information and he is putting his narrative out there on the stand.

He is not answering yes or no. And as both Kaitlan and Paula have noted, that is standard for Donald Trump. But he is also portraying this and painting this through this political light, saying that this judge is unfair, that this trial is unfair, that they are going to rule against him anyway because they always do. Those are things he says in private and public and that is the way he tries to spin all of this.

Now, we were not anticipating that this is exactly how it would go. I don't think anyone was anticipating that. However, we did believe he was going to at least try to do this in front of the cameras and now turns out that he's also doing it in the courtroom. Now back to again, this is a big balancing act for Donald Trump and for his campaign team.

They are all looking at how exactly it's going to look as he runs for President in 2024. And he is bouncing back and forth between these different trial dates. And I am told that this essentially means that the legal team and the campaign team are working hand in hand. It starts with the legal team. They are giving out dates of when they think potentially Donald Trump is going to have to sit in on various trials and then they are trying to work campaign events around that.

But if this does spill over, as you mentioned, onto Wednesday, this will be an opportunity that I can assure you, that Donald Trump's team will take to say that this is going to interfere with his campaigning in 2024, and then they will use that to perpetuate the argument that they continue to make that this is election interference.

But it really will be, Kate, the first time that we see this lining up of him having to appear in court and then have a campaign event, that is the first time if this does spill over into Wednesday. But it just gives you such an idea of how the lines have really blurred between what is his legal strategy and what is his political strategy.

BERMAN: And again, what we've seen from the courtroom is a lot of tension between the judge and Donald Trump, who has been testifying under oath on the witness stand. Karen, to you, one of the things that you told us we should watch for here is that maybe Trump as a witness, was trying to goad this judge into what is called reversible errors. Now, we only have a limited window into it because we don't have cameras in the courtroom.

We're getting kind of transcripts read back out loud to us, and we expect to see Donald Trump by any second now. Anything you see that the judge has done that could be problematic for this judge going forward, anything that gets close to a reversible error today?

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, it's hard without reading the record, and hopefully this judge has made a very strong record. I think the judge, because it's a bench trial, has to give Trump a little bit of leeway to say what he wants to say and really make him just hang himself, if you will. But he has to let him speak on some level, and he's going to have to make a very strong record if he does not to preserve it. So we'll see when we can actually read the transcripts of what was said.

BOLDUAN: We're seeing some security going back in, we could be looking at Donald Trump walking in any second. The negative inference, I will talk about the negative. Do you see something here?

BERMAN: No, it's just it gets to the point that Karen was making, and you're making, I don't want to interrupt you.

BOLDUAN: No. It's OK. Here is Trump right now. Thumbs up. And in he goes. All right, we're going to be getting more word from inside the court very shortly. I actually saw, as the doors open, I saw Letitia James sitting right there. Keep going, John. I'm sorry.

BERMAN: So Judge Engoron said, I'm not here to hear what he has to say, the judge said, raising his voice and telling Trump's attorneys to sit down. We are here to hear him answer questions, and most of the time, he is not.

AGNIFILO: Yes, I mean, this is -- don't forget, this is the Attorney General's case, right? They are putting on a case. They are establishing facts, and they need evidence from witnesses. And they've called Donald Trump to the stand as a witness, as a fact witness. And so if I were the Assistant Attorney General, I'd be very frustrated that he's not answering questions and he's answering what he wants to say.

BERMAN: Because one thing we're missing is what he -- I mean we got a little bit about maybe what he knows and didn't know in terms of his familiarity with the financial statements. But since that last time we talked about that, it has just been Donald Trump essentially going off about how unfair he thinks the trial is. They're not even getting that opportunity to get him on the record on these things.

[11:15:10]

AGNIFILO: I mean, another possibility is let him speak. And then if I'm, again, if I'm the assistant attorney general, just ask him pointed questions. Let him say what he wants to say, but then say, did you sign this? Is this your name? Are these your numbers? Get it out and let him -- just -- you need to control him a little.

BOLDUAN: Yes. AGNIFILO: And --

BOLDUAN: Sometimes it's in the question and not even in the answer, I guess, is how it's setting up, maybe.

AGNIFILO: Well --

BOLDUAN: I mean, you do need the answers but.

AGNIFILO: You do need the answer to make it for the record to be clear. But let's just hope the judge is making the appropriate record if he does decide to sanction him this way.

BERMAN: All right, Donald Trump back in the courtroom. Testimony could resume any second. Our live coverage continues right after this.

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[11:20:28]

BERMAN: The break is over. Donald Trump is back on the witness stand, testifying in the civil fraud trial against him. Let's get right to the courthouse steps. Paula Reid is there. They came off a 15-minute break. He's back answering questions. Paula, what difference did the 15 minutes make? Where do things stand now?

REID: It doesn't look like this break made much of a difference at all. We are getting live updates from inside the courtroom from our colleagues Kara Scannell and Lauren del Valle. And it looks like after the first question, Trump got on the stand, he once again launched into what is described as a speech. And this has been, a pointed contention with a judge who has repeatedly asked him to answer yes, no questions concisely, and not launch into what the judge described as essays or speeches.

Now, this break gave everyone a chance to take a moment and reflect on how they have proceeded so far during today's court proceedings. The judge has the opportunity to give Trump a little more leeway here. That's what Trump's lawyers have asked him to do. Just let the man be heard.

The lawyers for the government, for the Attorney General's Office, they also have an option here to change up a little bit of the way they've been questioning this witness. And, of course, Trump has the option to be more deferential to the judge. So far, he certainly does not seem to be changing the way he has approached this. The judge, it does not appear so far, has admonished him. But we're watching and waiting to see if anyone in this courtroom used that break as a chance to change up the strategy or if this will just continue to devolve into what it has been so far, which is chaos.

I mean, Kaitlan, there are no winners here, right? I mean, the government's not getting any answers, really, any evidence. The judge appeared to have lost control of his courtroom. And while, yes, politically, some of this could play to Trump's base, legally, he's really expanding potential peril. COLLINS: I think what I'm watching is to see if Trump changes the way he's been answering these questions or his attorneys change the way that they've been handling running interference between the judge and Trump after that 15-minute break, I don't even know if it went the full 15 minutes. Trump did not speak notably outside of the court, as he did when he entered the courthouse. The courtroom this morning and of course, was attacking the Attorney General.

He said nothing on the way out. He said nothing on the way in except giving a thumbs up as he returned in there. And so I think that's the question here, because Trump has not ever been someone who listens to his attorneys and takes their advice that, well, I mean, you can speak his own former attorneys would admit that, I think. And so that's kind of the question here.

I also think that they may see a strategy in this in the sense of it's very clear they're going to appeal this decision. I mean, they have basically telegraphed that and the other testimonies that have happened. And so the question is, if they are goading the judge essentially into revealing his frustrations, which he has multiple times, which will be on the record, and how does an appellate court hear that? How do they respond to that? Is that something they think has influenced the decision making here? That could be a strategy that you're seeing Chris Kise and others take here potentially.

REID: Yes. That's why it's so key. We're watching here. We have live updates again from our colleagues inside the courtroom, on our phones here, to see if there is any change. And I think if we don't see any change in strategy from the former president, then that's pretty clear. It's likely that they're all on the same page. His attorney is likely endorsing this approach for either a future appeal or just to try to prevent really, this from being in any way constructive for the Attorney General's Office.

But for the judge to suggest that he could draw every possible negative inference, I mean, that is just about the worst thing that could happen to Trump. It's effectively saying that the testimony went as poorly for him as it possibly could. So we'll see, so far, no real updates, no significant change, but we'll be watching to see how Trump proceeds going forward.

COLLINS: Yes, John and Kate, I mean, it's a major question of if this -- the temperature is taken down going forward. Certainly it has not been that way so far. Obviously, we're watching closely.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. All right, guys, we're going to get back to you shortly. Karen, it's one question of after this break, what Donald Trump and his team would be, how they would approach it. But also, if you're the Assistant Attorney General, how do you change your approach if you're really trying to get some questions answered here?

AGNIFILO: I think I would try to figure out what are the essential facts that I really need and want his answer for, and then just ask them very directly, very pointedly and very clearly, yes or no answers. And just try to keep a really tight reign on him. Because otherwise, if you ask him an open ended question, that's his opportunity to make a speech about whatever he wants. So were you the president of the Trump Organization? Yes or no? Or questions like that?

[11:25:14]

BOLDUAN: Right. Interesting.

BERMAN: Again, you know, let's just read some of the quotes here as we're waiting for more. I'm just going to go through them in the order I have. This is full screen eleven. This gets to the idea the judge trying to control the courtroom. The judge says to Trump's lawyers, no, this is different. This is Trump's attorneys saying to the judge, well, OK, I'll read what was just up on the screen. This is Trump's attorney saying to the judge, I would urge the court to take in all the information possible, including what the witness has to say about the numbers on the statement. With this witness, I would suggest it's far more efficient to listen what he has to say and take it in. And the issue there happens to be that Trump isn't being responsive to the questions, but he's making statements about other things. That was Trump's attorneys there.

Now the judge and this is the quote that I think that people are focused on, I beseech you to control him if you can. If you can't, I will excuse him and draw every negative inference that I can. Do you understand that?

HONIG: There's an interesting conversation happening about Donald Trump between his lawyer and the judge, with Donald Trump sitting right there. Trump's lawyer, Chris Kise is saying, judge, it's better if you just let him talk. Just let him go. He'll talk himself out. I hate to say it's the way you would sometimes deal with a temper tantrum from a toddler, just let him go. You're making it worse if you try to intercede. But the judge is saying, I'm not going to sit here just sort of silent and asking him politely.

And the judge has now explicitly said, this is what I can do. This is what I might do if you keep this up. I'm going to essentially put an end to this. I'm going to assume the absolute worst about everything that you would have testified to. I do want to say, though, if I'm one of the assistant AG's on this case, I actually do not want the judge to do that. Even though you --

BOLDUAN: You don't want the judge to shut him down.

HONIG: No. Right.

BOLDUAN: OK.

HONIG: Because that will be an appeal issue. I'm not saying Trump will win, but if the judge says, I'm taking the drastic step of cutting you off, saying --

BOLDUAN: But what if he's not answering any of your questions that you're posting?

HONIG: I would just let the day run out. I would lay low as the AAG, assistant AG. I would let the judge and Trump's lawyers have it out, and I would just sort of sit back and let them go at it. Because other than -- everything that I've seen today, I don't see any appeal issue at all. Based on what we're hearing, there's no way an appeals court is going to say anything that's happened thus far is reversible error.

If the judge takes the drastic step of saying, day over, testimony stricken, I'm assuming the worst about all of it. I'm not saying it would get reversed on appeal, but that would be an appeal issue. If I'm the AG, I'll sit back, let him go at it, and I'll get out of this safely.

AGNIFILO: I think another reason to let him go at it, though, is if he were called as a defense witness, right. He could say a lot of what he's trying to say. The reason that he's being shut down is he's not answering the assistant AG's questions. But this is a bench trial. And so if he were called by the other side, if Chris Kise said, once the plaintiff rests, the AG rests, and it's time for the defense to present their case, I call to the stand Donald Trump.

They could say, what did you want to say about this? And he could go on and on and on. So it's a little futile to try and shut him down now. I think they should give him a little leeway.

BERMAN: Just very finally, some of the things he's saying on the margins are responsive to the questions he was asked about.

BOLDUAN: Yes, it's like in between the speeches. It does, yes.

BERMAN: Working with Allen Weisselberg on financial statements, he says, I did look it over. I may have a suggestion or something but very little. It just wasn't very important. You made it important. It wasn't important financially, but I did look it over. That's full screen eight there, if you want to put up on the screen. That's admitting.

AGNIFILO: Exactly.

BERMAN: That he had some contact with some of these statements or what this case is about.

AGNIFILO: Yes. You know, this is very -- he is making some very important admissions here. Again, very distinct from what his two sons have testified to, which is, no, we just relied on the experts. They did the valuations. Donald Trump has admitted here. No, that's undervalued. I saw that, and I think that was undervalued or I saw that and I gave them this information. He is making some admissions here that I think are going to be valuable to the Attorney General.

BOLDUAN: Two examples of the state of where we are right now right before we go to break, full screen three, I would look at them, meaning the financial statements. I would see them and I would maybe, on occasion, have some suggestions. But then getting back to full screen 10, this is a very unfair trial. Very, very and I hope the public is watching. This is kind of like the two ends of bookends of what we're seeing play out in real time.

AGNIFILO: Yes. And the more the judge doesn't let him talk, the more he can say that.

[11:29:51]

BOLDUAN: We're going to take a quick break, have much more coming from inside the courtroom, Donald Trump on the stand as we speak. We'll be right back.

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