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Now: Trump Back On The Stand After Clashing With Judge; Trump Questioned About Value Of Mar-A-Lago. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired November 06, 2023 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We'll now -- we're now back. Let's get back to outside the courtroom of new details coming in from inside as Donald Trump is still on the stand. Kaitlan Collins is standing by. Kaitlan, what's the latest?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Trump is back on the witness stand. Things are moving along. We're not seeing the judge stop trying -- the former president as much as he was in that previous hour before they took this break.

[11:35:00]

But what they're talking about right now is really at the heart of why he is on that witness stand and whether or not he -- how much he inflated his assets, inflated his net worth in order to secure those more favorable loan terms. So, right now, what they're talking about are the 2021 financial statements from the former president. One thing that he did say while -- it's kind of an aside. While he was on the stand, he was saying that he was busy protecting the country from China and Russia. Obviously, referencing his time as the former president.

I think that may lead to more questioning about when those statements were prepared when they were issued because obviously, Donald Trump was not in the White House in 2021. But that is something that he referenced there, talking generally about this time when he was in the White House and how he had put his finances, essentially, in a trust. Obviously, Donald Trump Jr., and Eric Trump, that's why they were testifying earlier this week as being in charge of that. He also referenced Allen Weisselberg.

But I think also what's at the heart of what they're talking about now and I think what most people and Elie and Karen would likely agree with this, has been one of the most egregious overinflations here of something that he owns is his apartment in Trump Tower, and how big that is, how much the square footage was. I believe it was put somewhere around 30,000 square feet when in reality, it was only about 11,000 square feet. And that is something that they are talking about right now, which is the valuation on that, when those numbers were changed, and who was involved in that. Trump said he did acknowledge that he was involved in that, at least to some degree. So, we are seeing some progress made on the actual questions that are being asked here at the heart of this matter, which, of course, is how much this was inflated, who was in charge of those numbers, and whether or not it was done at the direction of Donald Trump.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I think Paula Reid is there with you, Kaitlan, and may have some of the exact lines that were used. Because I do think there's an enormous amount of interest in the valuation in the -- in the square footage and whatnot of the apartment in Trump Tower. Specifically, what is he saying and how was he explaining that, Paula?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So, we're looking for a few different quotes here. We're getting these live updates from our colleagues inside the courtroom. And in one place, Trump says that the difference in cost could be explained by roof access and that the original estimate is not that far off.

Now, he also says they could have made a mistake. And that is why they have this disclaimer in these valuations. This is something that his lawyers tried to get him to focus on because this declaim -- this disclaimer said that banks, insurance companies, they should do their own due diligence and not just rely on these valuations. That is part of the legal strategy and legal defense here. Now, he also made though a little bit of a snarky aside, saying, "there is a disclaimer clause where you don't have to get sued by the Attorney General of New York."

I will note the judge, though, is not interrupting Trump, as often as he did. Even though he veered off just a little in his answer there, the judge did not pounce. And that changes up a little bit in the strategy.

What appears to be a change in the judge's strategy is helping these questions to move along. Trump is not being particularly concise, but it is helping the line of questioning and the attorney general get through more questions. So, I think that's the biggest change we've seen since everyone took their break because the judge appears to be letting Trump speak just a little bit longer.

BOLDUAN: So interesting. Let's talk about this because it's been called the worthless clause, which I've been kind of fascinated in learning more about in what this disclaimer -- how much weight they can put in it, is it an actual defense? It seems they're trying to have in the past tried to make this as kind of like a catch-all inoculation from any kind of responsibility.

Did -- what is it -- what is the role of it could it play here? It's essentially a disclaimer on their financial forms that says you can't trust any of this to any bank, any lender. You need to do your own -- your own homework on our math.

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: "This judge in his pre-trial rule," he wrote, "the worthless clause is worthless." He was not moved by that argument at all. He said you can't simply put some clause in here saying you have to do your own homework, and therefore you are immune from any legal consequences. This example that Kaitlan and Paula just talked about with the testimony about the valuation and size of the Trump Tower apartment.

BOLDUAN: Rent?

HONIG: To me, is the cleanest and strongest piece of evidence in the A.G.'s case here because if you're talking about what's the value of Mar-a-Lago, reasonable minds can differ. There's some subjectivity to it. If you're talking about how large was your apartment --

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: That's a math problem. And the question I had was is Donald Trump going to defend that overinflation saying it was 30,000 feet when was actually 10,000, or is he going to deny responsibility? It sounds like he's trying to do both when he says, well, that might count the rooftop. Not super compelling, but that's a defense of it. But when he says they, the appraisers, the accounts, they could have made a mistake, to relay Paula's account of what was said inside, he's trying to sort of deny knowledge. So, he's trying to have it both ways here on this one.

BERMAN: All right, we understand now he's also being asked about Mar- a-Lago. And this is important -- this may be important in the public sphere right now than the exact case itself because he's got a wildly different view of the value of Mar-a-Lago --

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: -- than what has been mentioned over the course of this case. Paula Reid, what are you hearing?

[11:40:17]

REID: Well, we knew this was going to be a sensitive subject for Trump. He spoke about it before today's hearing even got underway, that he has highlighted the fact that the judge has relied on an $18 million valuation for Mar-a-Lago. Now, that was evaluation based on a tax assessor's appraisal. But Trump and his attorneys have attacked that.

One of his attorneys, Alina Habba, has suggested that that property would be worth "a billion dollars," suggesting that these are very subjective judgments. And this is a "Mona Lisa Property." Questioned about this on the stand just a short time ago, Trump was asked. "You believe that as of today, Mar-a-Lago is worth $1.5 billion," Trump said I think between a billion and a billion five.

So, we're waiting to see if this prompts Trump to go on with a judge is described as a speech or an essay. But we know this is a sensitive subject for him and he has taken issue with this appraisal. So, we're just waiting for more updates from our colleagues in the courtroom to see how this line of questioning goes.

COLLINS: But can I also have a question? Because one of the lines of questioning here has been on the valuation of the Trump Tower apartment and how wildly over the square footage of that apartment was on the financial documents compared to what it was in real life. I think on the document, it's about 30,000 square feet. In reality, it's about 11,000 -- or 30,000, in reality, it's about 11.

But Trump himself is saying that he wasn't involved in those figures. But he was the one himself who told Forbes, which of course, is why all of this matters, why part of that was on the record, he was the one telling them himself in his own words, that it was about 33,000 square feet. So, actually, higher than what was even on these documents. And so, he's essentially trying to put it off to people who are preparing these documents. But Trump is on the record telling Forbes that that apartment was 33,000 square feet when clearly it was not that high.

BOLDUAN: What he knew? Who was involved? How much he sign off on? This is all now getting to the core of what this judge has been wanting to get to, and the assistant attorney generals have been wanting to get to in order to get down to the crux of it is how much the punishment should be for what the judge has already decided is repeated and persistent fraud with regard to the financial with regard to his net worth over a course of years. We've more coming from the -- from the inside the courtroom. We'll be right back after this.

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[11:47:11]

BOLDUAN: All right. Welcome back, everyone. We're watching -- getting more updates from inside the courtroom. We're also trying to analyze what is actually going on.

Donald Trump back on the stand. It seems that the Donald Trump's demeanor from what we hear inside the courtroom not changing. What has changed is maybe the judge's approach to this line of questioning.

And we are learning a little bit more they're getting to -- as we were just hearing from Kaitlan and Paula before the break, getting a little bit more into the actual -- I'm going to call it the nitty-gritty about the value -- the way they valued the Trump Tower property, the apartment, as well as Mar-a-Lago. Trump is saying with regard to the 2021 financial statements. Let me just read this and then I want to hear your guys' take on it.

Not only did he say I was so busy in the White House with my threshold was -- and my threshold was China, Russia, and keeping our country safe. But he said he was not involved in the 2021 financial statements. I don't know. That's what it was in the trust.

So, I assume Allen Weisselberg and Jeff McConney, perhaps they dealt with Don and Eric a little bit, but they were not involved very much at all with these statements as I understand. That sounds more in line with what we heard from Eric and Donald Trump Jr. on the stand all last week but is this -- was not on us.

HONIG: I think this would be going quite poorly in front of a jury. A normal jury. There is no jury here. It's judge.

Because Trump is just oscillating back and forth between, I don't know, other people were handling, it was the trust. But then in other instances, like we just heard from Paula and Kaitlan when it comes to the apartment, when it comes to Mar-a-Lago, getting into detail about well, these numbers were actually correct to these numbers were actually underinflated. And those two things -- those two lines of defense are really difficult to reconcile. So, it wouldn't surprise me if at the end of all of this when the judge issues his rolling weeks from now --

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: Says I found those two things inconsistent and compatible, and I find against it.

BERMAN: If you'll all bear with me, I can read out loud to you a section of this that had to do with the valuation of the apartment. Remember the issue here is it turns out to be 11,000 square feet. But at one point, the Trump people listed it as 30,000 square feet until they were outed in the Forbes article.

So, supporting data for the 2017 financial statement shows the property value in the triplex department dropped from $300 million in 2016 to $116 million in 2017. Around the time that Forbes basically outed everything for you know, the fact that it wasn't 30,000 square feet. It's 11,000 square feet.

Under direct questioning, Trump was asked by the assistant attorney general, if this change in valuation came at your direction. Trump's response, probably. I said, I thought it was too high, Trump says. I don't know what's too high anymore because I'm seeing things sold at numbers that are very high, Trump says. I didn't pick it up sooner, he said, because it's not broken down in their financial statement report. Trump says the difference in cost could also be explained by roof access. And then it's not too far off. But what about that, that he says, probably --

BOLDUAN: Probably.

BERMAN: I thought it was too high. In other words, he was involved in the change in valuation once Forbes called him out on it.

[11:50:12]

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Exactly. I mean, he -- you can't have it both ways. You can't, on the one hand, say, oh, I just relied on the experts. I had no idea what was happening. And on the other hand, say, oh, I thought it was too high.

I mean, he's really making an admission there that he saw the numbers. And then he's justifying it, right? He's not saying, oh, it's not 30,000 square feet. He's saying, oh, yes. If you take into consideration, the fact that you can go to the roof, then it counts too. So, he's really trying to be too cute by half as they say, right, and admit certain things but not admit other things.

BOLDUAN: Jeremy Saland, do -- get -- what do you hear in that as well, that "probably, I said it was -- I thought -- I said I thought it was too high. I don't know what's too high anymore because I'm seeing things sold at numbers that are very high." What do you hear in that?

JEREMY SALAND, FORMER MANHATTAN PROSECUTOR: You know, I -- well, I hear that -- I think that this is -- the court allowing Donald Trump to share what he wants to share. And it's a long game here. And that long game is about what justice is and what -- whether wherever we may fall on that but allow him to make his statements.

And unfortunately for him, meaning Donald Trump, he's been kind of inconsistent. He's in many a little things. He's acknowledging some things and at the same time, he's playing you know coy, oh, I didn't know. None of this seems to me to be very helpful for Donald Trump. The more he says, the more combative he is, the more inconsistent he is, and somewhat, which is inconsistent with his sons.

And, you know, you don't want to allow Donald Trump to use that witness box or witness stand as a soapbox for something that's, you know, far beyond what the court needs to hear. But allowing him to continue to make these statements if I'm in the attorney general's office, let him do it, have at it, because it's not going to help him. And this is just another way that there are some inconsistencies that are going to impact his credibility and go directly to his knowledge and intent.

BERMAN: Elie, do you want to jump in?

HONIG: Yes. This is a concession by Donald Trump. It's not necessarily game over, but it's a concession. OK, that was probably too high.

And in the real world of trials, cases are not won and lost -- in contrast to the movies, cases are not won or lost with shocking oh my god confessions on the stand. Cases are built criminally or in this case civilly, with small pieces with building blocks. And so, what's going to happen when this is all over if the A.G.'s office is going to go through every word of this testimony and they're going to highlight out little concessions like that, probably too high? And this will be in their closing argument to the judge. So, it's not always as cinematic as we may be used to, but this is the way real trials work.

BOLDUAN: John Avlon, you've been watching all of this play out from the outbursts in court to now getting into the line of questioning and the inconsistencies that Donald Trump is presenting from the -- from the stand. What do you see here?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST & ANCHOR: I think the most important thing is getting to the fact pattern, is getting to these questions about specifics. There's a natural tendency to get drawn into the bluster and the fight. But we get Donald Trump. We as a civil society, get Donald Trump under oath so rarely, that the real opportunity and obligation for the prosecution is to get direct answers on yes or no questions. That shows this sort of lifestyle of lying that Donald Trump is employed in public life in business life, and apparently in private life. So, those -- that's the -- really, thing to listen for. What are the direct questions, what evidence do they actually get, and can they pry it out, or will there be an avalanche of Fifth Amendments going forward? So, that's what to listen for. That's really, I think the opportunity not to get lost in all these theatrics.

BERMAN: And again, I'll just ask this head on, he may think that what's going on inside this courtroom helps him politically, John. But is that definitionally true?

AVLON: No, it's not definitionally true. And again, there's this fundamental divide between what might play well in a primary, and what might play well in a general election. And the reason this is getting -- this trial of all of them is getting under his skin is it goes to the heart of his personal and public identity. He rose to the presidency on a reputation for being a successful business executive, despite the fact that most New York banks wouldn't lend to him. And this goes to the heart of what is -- what their -- the prosecution is alleging is a pattern of fraud -- of financial fraud.

It affects his businesses, that affects his ego, that affects his self-image, and it might impact his reputation if the edifice starts crumbling. It won't probably affect that 30 percent of Republicans who polls show will support him no matter what. But it begins to chip away fundamentally because he's being held accountable legally, for perhaps the first time.

BOLDUAN: Really quick, Karen. How do -- if you're the assistant attorney general, how do you bring this home if you have one day with him and now, you're getting into -- now you see the direction it's headed? How do you bring this home in front of the judge?

AGNIFILO: I think you look at the elements of each of the things that they're trying to prove. And you ask him questions -- direct questions about each of those items and just get his answer. Try to keep it clean, try to keep it focused, and really just get what you need out of there.

[11:55:08]

I'd be looking at the record. I'd also want to be able to try -- and don't forget, part of this is the damages and how much money this is going to cost. So, I'd be trying to tease that out as well in detail about how much of this were we -- did he -- did he -- was able to enrich himself unjustifiably.

BERMAN: 15 seconds or less. Has Donald Trump made his case better or worse over the last two hours?

HONIG: Worse. I think my summary here is if I was the attorney general. He knew he was in charge. He can't hide now.

BERMAN: All right. Everyone, thank you very much. Obviously, Donald Trump is still on the stand. A lot more to cover. CNN's special live coverage of this continues right after this.

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