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Trump Testifies Under Oath In Civil Fraud Trial, Sparks Tension With Judge; Trump And Sons Accused Of 'Persistent And Repeated Fraud' For Inflating Property Values In Loan And Insurance Scheme. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired November 06, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:47]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer alongside Dana Bash. We're here in Washington in moments, in moments from now, Donald Trump will be back under oath after a truly historic and heated day in the New York civil fraud trial against him. After two impeachments and multiple lawsuits and depositions, the former president is defending himself on the stand for the first time. Within minutes, Trump was accused of making speeches and later he insulted the New York Attorney General and he publicly criticized the judge in this case. The judge has already found that Trump and his eldest sons committed what were described as quote persistent and repeated fraud by inflating certain property values to acquire loans and insurance benefits.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Now Judge Arthur Engoron is trying to figure out what damages the Trumps should pay. He spent much of the morning admonishing, admonishing Trump for quote long-winded answers and not answering the questions being asked to him. Even telling Trump's attorney at one point to quote, he said, quote, I beseech you to control him if you can. If you can't, I will. I will excuse him and draw every negative inference that I can. Do you understand that?

CNN's Kaitlan Collins and Paula Reid are outside the courthouse. Caitlin, the judge seemed to take a new approach to the Trump testimony after making that threat, but it didn't change the tension in the courtroom, tension that Trump seems to be, it seems to be part of the Trump strategy.

KAITLAN COLLINS. CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, it certainly does. I mean, I guess that's the question of it's a, if it's a strategy that works because we already know what the judge is determining here is how much, if anything, Trump is going to have to pay in penalties given he's already been found liable of the fraud that the attorney general's office accused him of. And I think what's important to remember here is that this is incredibly personal for Trump. I mean, this case has made him angrier than almost any other case that he has been facing because it goes to the heart of his entire identity, which is of course his real estate empire that he has built his name off of, which he used to get himself into office when he ran for president in 2016 and something he has continued to talk about. And now this case is threatening that. And so, what the judge was so

frustrated by earlier were Trump's long meandering answers that the judge did not feel were sufficient yes or no answers to pretty a yes or no questions in the judge's mind. And that was frustrating because I'll remind people, this is the only day Trump is expected to be on the witness stand. He is, -- the court is closed tomorrow. It's election day. He's not expected to return.

So, the big question, Paula Reed, of what this is going to look like in just a few minutes when Trump is back in the room, because he hasn't seemed to mind frustrating this judge, even though it's the judge who is ultimately the decision maker here.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right. This was our second break today. And what we saw after the first break in court today is that the judge changed up his strategy, but Trump kept right on with his. The judge initially was stopping Trump. Every time he felt like he went off script or he talked too long, he was interrupting him. That set off disputes with Trump's lawyers, discussions with the attorney general's office. It took up a lot of time. It made the whole situation quite chaotic between Trump's, what were described as speeches, the judge interrupting, the lawyers interjecting. It was a chaotic first hour there.

We took a break and when we came back, it was notable that the judge stopped interrupting Trump and in fact, just let him talk instead deferring to the attorney general's office to decide how to police the questioning and stop if they didn't feel like they were getting the right answer. Now that everybody's had a lunch break, had a little food, stabilized their blood sugar, it'll be interesting to see if Trump changes his strategy. I wouldn't expect that. His lawyer Alina Habba came out here a short time ago. It appeared that they were quite pleased with how things were going, and she also seemed to indicate that they won't make any changes even though the judge has threatened Trump with kicking him out of court and making the most negative inference possible, which means concluding that this testimony went as bad as it could possibly go.

So, we'll all watch, see how folks are doing. But the first break prompted some charges. Let's see the second one does too.

COLLINS: Despite all the tension and craziness, I mean, there were points where Trump acknowledged that he did have a role in putting an assembling together some of these financial documents.

[14:05:09]

So, the attorney general's office has gotten some of what they were looking for. The question is, with about two hours left of testimony, how much more do they need to establish the extent to which he was or was not involved?

REID: It seemed once they were able to get some questions in, in that second part of the morning, they got through some of the properties, but not all of them. They still haven't talked about, for example, the Doral golf course down in Florida. They also haven't talked about the D.C. Postal Office project. So, we can expect that if they're able to ask questions, they'll go back to the backbone of this case, the valuation of a specific list of properties. They're not all the way through that list.

COLLINS: Yeah, and of course, Wolf and Dana, speaking of that, the Mar-a-Lago apartment is one of the biggest, or excuse me, the Trump Tower apartment is one of the biggest points at the center of all of these allegations. And they were, the prosecutors were trying to use Trump's own words against him, what he said to Forbes magazine once bragging about the size of that apartment, which was actually about three times smaller than what he was saying there. So certainly, they are trying to use what he has said previously against him in this back and forth as he's being examined.

BLITZER: Yeah, Trump had said repeatedly that that apartment was some 30,000 square feet, when in fact, after they accounted it precisely, it was a little bit more than 10,000 square feet. You make an important point. Kaitlan, Paula, we'll get back to you guys. Thanks very much for doing what you're doing.

We're gonna talk about all of this further with our experts right now. Laura, let me start with you. You're a real expert. You're our chief legal affairs analyst. You're an anchor at CNN now. Talk a little bit about what we're learning today and where this whole case is moving.

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: What we're learning really is that the President of the United States, the former President of the United States, Donald Trump, is really hoping to capitalize this opportunity without cameras in the courtroom by hoping, I think in the long run, to suggest that he is being politically persecuted by a prosecutor who used her campaign to suggest that she would target him. The judge is somebody that's also in his virtual crosshairs here as somebody who's hoping to convince the public that he is biased against him.

None of this changes the facts that have been presented at trial. There's been 23 witnesses who have testified to this effect that, and there's a summary judgment motion that says that fraudulent documents were already in place. He's already been found liable. All this now is how expensive is it going to be now for Donald Trump and company?

He's in a real catch-22, though, Wolf. On the one hand, he wants to say, I'm in control, I am the head honcho, nobody makes decisions without me, Donald Trump. On the other hand, if he says that in the court of public opinion in a courtroom, it's suggesting that he actually should be liable to some of this as well. How does he get around it?

BASH: And, Jamie, I should say what we're watching on the screen here is outside the courthouse. You see it says it there. It's 2.07 p.m. Eastern. Court is supposed to resume at 2.15 Eastern, so we'll watch for them walking back in to see if the former president says anything. But, Jamie, I know one thing that Laura mentioned is something that you've been eager to talk about, which is not just the catch-22, but the potential contradiction in the notion of Trump saying, well, I wasn't really the decider here on how we file, and yet him also trying to portray himself as the biggest, best businessperson on the planet. JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, I think the word he used was everyone was involved in these decisions. Anybody who knows about Donald Trump's business knows one thing, the buck stops, it begins, it ends with Donald Trump. His own children who've been involved with the business for years, I am told, would not make a move without checking in on him. And I think sometimes people think the Trump Organization is much bigger than it is. You had said, what is it, about 6 people?

I actually texted with Michael Cohen. He said there are about 20 executives, but at the end, Donald Trump makes all the decisions. I just want to add 1 other thing, big picture, when we're talking about strategy, the legal strategy, the political strategy. Donald Trump not only has this case, he has 4 criminal cases he is facing elsewhere. But he has his eye on one thing, and that's next November, and winning and being the next president, even though there are state cases where he cannot theoretically pardon himself, we have seen him over and over try to discredit the Justice Department, the rule of law, the judicial system.

So, at the end of the day, is this painful for him? Absolutely. Does he want to pay $250 million? Absolutely not. Does he want his business in New York dismantled? Of course not. But the big prize is next November in his mind.

[14:10:09]

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it's all about power. And, you know, there's more power in the presidency than even there is being a real estate mogul in New York. But again, I keep coming back to the thought that this is so definitional for him as to who he is as a human being. You know, he was born and bred as the real estate mogul and used that to run for the presidency. And now we'll use the fact that he says he's been victimized to run for the presidency. But in his heart of hearts, you know, as he said today, I know more about real estate than anybody else in this room. You know, that's who he is. And so, I think he's a

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BASH(?): That's Letitia James, the New York Attorney General who just walked in. Sorry to interrupt you.

BORGER: Right. No, yeah. I think he's conflicted. I think he's conflicted. I mean, he said, for example, I made suggestions to the people who worked for him because he didn't want to appear to be somebody who ran a company and knew nothing about it. Right? That's not part of the image. The image is, I made this company into something great. But by saying he made suggestions, he hurts himself, you know, legally in the trial. So, it's, you know, it's very difficult. And clearly, they're all coming down on the side of, what have you got to lose?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And you know, this whole idea of this all being just part of businesses and how we do things is sort of the arguments that certainly a former president, but more to the point his sons have made, which is that number one, look, we're experts here's

BASH: Here comes the former president. Let's --

BLITZER: That's what he did the last time. Just had a thumbs up. Didn't say anything.

WILLIAMS: But the point was, we're all experts here and look, valuing buildings is itself subjective. And so, it's a little bit fuzzy. Now that's debunked by a lot of the evidence that's presented in the court filings there, which is that they're -- valuing, -- devaluing or overvaluing buildings by a factor of 2 or 3. The other thing that they're saying is that, well, we just, we have accountants to do these kinds of things and we're relying on information, just like any good businessman would do. --

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BORGER: Right.

WILLIAMS: We're relying on what's coming from our accountants. And if you don't believe those 2 things, ladies and gentlemen, you have to understand that this is just a witch hunt being carried out by Democratic politicians. Now, each of those three arguments, that it's subjective, that it's accountants, and that it's a witch hunt, are all kind of weak and are going to fail in different ways, but it seems like they're not going to get much traction.

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BORGER: When your signature is on paper

COATES: That's why he wanted a jury though, right?

WILLIAMS: Right. Right.

COATES: And that's why having a judge who's accustomed to civil fraud trials, who's had other very rich people come in

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

COATES: and had to prove their cases, the average person is not wealthy. The average person looks at someone like a Donald Trump and says, I guess this is how rich people live their lives. I guess this is what they have. I guess they're not using TurboTax as an accountant. All these are luxurious positions for the majority of Americans in this country. And so, for, -- one of the things he's hoping to use is suggest, this is how we do things. And everybody else is naive. His tax statements early on, this is how the wealthy get away with different things.

Having a judge who's accustomed to the way things actually work according to the law, the charges including conspiracy to falsify documents, conspiracy to make the false statements and beyond, reckless disregard for the truth, that's the real tragedy of Trump, of having a judge.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, and the one thing we haven't really talked about here, when the judge is the one guy assessing what -- everybody's credibility and the quality of the evidence, the one thing he did to inflame the judge more than anything else was attack the judge's law clerk. And you might think that's a separate sort of ancillary thing that didn't really matter. But no, these defendants have gone after court personnel, career court personnel, that I think angered the judge. It was clear from his order that he was quite upset by it.

Those are the kinds of things, look, you and I both appeared in front of judges, Laura, those are the kinds of things that we know well, once you get under the judge's skin, you're not going to get out from there. And that can actually have an impact on how the judge rules on you rules against you and can't be overturned on appeal sometimes if the judges can justify why he's ruling the way he does.

BASH: Okay, everybody stand by. We're going to sneak in another quick break. Donald Trump is about to take the stand again, testifying under oath in this New York civil fraud trial against him. More of our special live coverage after a quick break.

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[14:15:09]

BASH: Welcome back to our special coverage. Donald Trump is returning to the stand in the civil fraud trial against him. The former president delivered fiery and combative testimony for about 3 hours before court broke for lunch. Sources tell us that the former president's team is happy with his performance so far.

BLITZER: Interesting. CNN's Kristen Holmes is live for us outside of Trump Tower in New York City. Kristen, this is all happening just almost exactly 1 year from the 2024 presidential election. How are Trump's lawyers and Trump's campaign staff managing all of this?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, they are working together hand in hand. I am told by campaign advisors that this is really a team effort. You know, 1 of the things that we talk about with Trump's messaging over and over again is that the campaign and the legal have blended together, that he's using the legal to help with his political campaign. But that also applies behind the scenes, that these two lines have really blurred. And the campaign advisors tell us that they are working in a symbiotic relationship with the lawyers to figure out how exactly to manage the schedule of Donald Trump bouncing back and forth between being on the campaign trail and being in a courtroom.

Remember, this is just the first of many potential appearances for Donald Trump. His team believes that there will be at least 1 more trial, probably more, before the 2024 election. They are trying to figure out how exactly to campaign around it. Now, one of the things is what we're seeing today, which is this idea that you can turn these court appearances into a spectacle or a campaign event in itself.

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The other part of this is trying to manage a schedule. To have the lawyers blocking out some potential dates for when Donald Trump might actually be in court, when they can schedule campaign events around that. But this is very complicated because you can't plan far in advance because they don't want to be cancelling and postponing these campaign events on a regular basis. Now, I did speak to one campaign advisor who said that they are putting the infrastructure on the ground, particularly in those early states, so that if potentially Donald Trump can't be there, that he's forced to be in a trial during the days before an election or a primary, that they believe they can still succeed or win there, even without him on the ground.

But this is a lot of guesswork here. We have never been in this kind of a situation. They don't actually know what this is going to look like in the same way that, yes, they do believe that right now this is helping them politically, but when they look down the line, they just have no idea that -- if Donald Trump ends up being the nominee, how this would play out in a general. It is very uncharted waters that we're in right now.

BLITZER: Kris, that Trump is calling the trial, and I'm quoting him now, unfair and a political witch hunt. It seems like he's using this to make some sort of political statement. I know you've spoken to a number of his advisors. Is this all part of his campaign strategy?

HOLMES: Absolutely. When we talk about the messaging, this is all part of it. They want the legal and political to be one in the same. They are going to make the argument that he is unfairly being persecuted because he is running for president, that this is all about Democrats or various leaders or opponents to him, that they are all trying to silence him because he is running for president and doing well. They believe that that helps them.

The key message here is what we've always known about Donald Trump. He does not want to face these trials in a court of law. He wants to fight them in the court of public opinion. And what we're actually seeing him do today is using that messaging. That messaging he puts out on social media, that messaging he says at the rallies in a courtroom. He's taken it a step further. We knew he'd probably do that in front of the cameras, which he has, but he's also doing it inside of the courtroom.

They are trying to create a narrative around this that plays into what they want their political campaign to look like, which is that he is a political martyr. And that is part of a very calculated strategy on their part.

BLITZER: Kristen Holmes reporting for us from New York, thanks very much. A very contentious day inside the courtroom, at least so far. Our live coverage continues after a quick break.

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[14:25:01] BLITZER: Donald Trump is back on the stand in a civil fraud trial where he's been sparring with the presiding judge. But they've been on a collision course for months. After he found Trump liable for fraud, the former president began smearing the judge and his staff. And this resulted in a gag order for Trump and thousands in fees for violating that gag order.

Under oath today, Trump lodged more attacks. The judge's response at one point was, quote, you can attack me, you can do whatever you want, but answer the question. CNN's Kaitlan Collins and Paula Reid are outside the courthouse for us in New York. Kaitlin, the questioning just picked up, I take it, after the lunch break. So, what are we learning?

COLLINS: Yeah, they're focusing on that Doral property of the former president's. That's the one down in Miami that he often wanted to host world leaders at. He wanted to host a summit there at one point. And Trump has just said that he was personally involved in guaranteeing the loan that he got for National Doral.

And that just goes to the heart of what he's being questioned about, which is what he knew about these valuations, which of course the attorney general is saying were over it, that they were inflated, and that he used those inflations of his net worth and the valuations of these properties, ranging from the one in Miami to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach to his apartment here in New York to secure more favorable loans. And that is what the judge has already ruled on, that he is liable for fraud there.

But the reason they're asking these questions from the attorney general's office is because they're trying to determine what the penalties here could be, what the damages could be that Trump has to actually pay here. And Paula, I think what's notable is as we've been talking about the heart of this questioning, there's still that tension in the courtroom that's happening. Trump's attorney, Chris Kise, has been trying to object to some of the questioning and the lines of it, saying that it was above the statute of limitations. That's being overruled by the judge, which I believe is pretty normal. But Trump is kind of smirking, like it's the judge he believes being biased against him, even though it's something that's pretty typical for the judge to do.

REID: Exactly, and our colleagues who were in the courtroom giving us these live updates, they report right now it's been one of the calmest, most quote, low-impact moments. So, it's unusual that Kise would try to interrupt this line of questioning and not just let everybody sort of move on with it. Perhaps he thought his client was about to get himself in trouble. One of the things that I've really noticed today that has been notable is before all of this got started, the attorney general, Letitia James, came out and gave a little impromptu press conference sort of predicting correctly, she was correct, what Trump would say on the stand and rebutting it.

That's unusual, Kaitlan, and we don't typically see that in courtrooms where the prosecutor comes out and tries to rebut a witness before the proceedings. You know, Trump has of course tried to frame this as a political pursuit, that he is the victim of political bias. And we've seen a few times today where the judge even was, was a little snarky with him, right? Suggesting that he read his opinion, perhaps for the first time. Letitia James, the attorney general, as she was going into the courtroom, joked with cameras that they were trained, waiting for Trump, on the wrong person, not looking at her.