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Now: Trump On The Stand In N.Y. Civil Fraud Trial; Now: Trump Back On The Stand After Clash With Judge; Judge Threatens To Excuse Trump From Stand; Trump Attacks AG & Judge, Calls Investigation "Disgraceful". Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired November 06, 2023 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Hello, I'm Dana Bash with Wolf Blitzer in Washington, a historic courtroom clash. Right now, former President Donald Trump is testifying in his own defense in his New York civil fraud trial. And within minutes of Trump taking the stand, a battle with a judge quickly unfolded. Judge Arthur Engoron accused Trump of making long winded speeches, not answered questions and even threatened to excuse the former president. The judge told defense attorneys, "I beseech you to control him if you can, if you can't, I will.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The former president of United States is accused of inflating the value of his various properties by billions of dollars to acquire loan and insurance benefits. And the stakes for Trump are high right now. He potentially could lose his certificate to do business in New York and pay very hefty fines in the millions and millions of dollars.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins is just outside the courthouse in New York, along with CNN's chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid. Paula, let me start with you. Well, what are you hearing? First of all, what are we hearing from Trump's testimony so far today has it been smoother this hour.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: A much smoother. Well, after a chaotic start, everyone took a break. And it's clear that that gave everyone an opportunity to reassess their approach to today's proceedings. And what we've seen is that the judge has been one who has most notably changed his approach.

For that first hour, every time Trump got off track, started pontificating. He would cut him off, which would then set off interactions between Trump's lawyers, the attorney general's attorneys, it didn't allow for much progress in the hearing itself.

So, what we've seen since the break is that the judge is back in command of his courtroom. He is deferring instead to the attorney general's office with this questioning, saying that he is deferring to the questioner to allow Trump to either ramble off script or give more precise answers. Only one or two times have we seen the judge in the last hour, instruct Trump to be more focused and not to ramble and just answer the question.

So, it has been a lot more productive for all the parties involved, does not appear, though, that Trump has really changed his approach. He has taken shots at this case at the judge. But overall, this has been more productive for more orderly than that chaotic first hour.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: But I think the only reason it's been like that is not because of Trump himself. It's because the judge is taking a very different approach here. And that's what's important here, that 15-minute break, nothing changed with how Trump was treating this and how he was responding to this. And instead, what we're seeing that's different is the judge himself, not speaking up as much.

And as you noted, referring to the lawyer for the attorney general's office, who is conducting this line of questioning who has been pretty composed throughout this and he has not gotten as frustrated with the rambling. I think part of that is because that potentially helps the attorney general's office here. It may help them make their case if Trump is just talking, if he slips up, if he says something that instead of he's just answering short yes or no questions.

I mean, he was at one point earlier, saying, you know, I wasn't involved in the 2021 financial statements, referencing what he was doing in the White House, even though as the lawyer pointed out very quickly, he was not president in 2021 and making that point as well.

REID: Exactly. This has been much more focused on the substance of the case, on the backbone questions that we anticipated, which are about valuations. And I'm just checking my phone, because of course, we're getting these live updates from our colleagues inside of the courtroom.

It's interesting, though, I mean, Trump was just asked a few moments ago about the valuations. And one of the upsides of letting him just talk is, as you noted, the attorney general could get some answers that really helped him. For example, he was asked about the valuation of one property, and Trump said, "you can pretty much do whatever you want to do and described it as being like a painting.

Now that could be a problem, because, as you know, when you are talking about your financial statements with an insurance company or a bank, you do have a legal obligation to be accurate, and that's what's at the heart of this case. So, it has been interesting to see this change in strategy the second half of the morning, potentially, allowing Trump to talk could really help the attorney general's case here.

[12:05:00]

COLLINS: But were they -- the judge just interrupted, where I mean, finally, he did finally speak up and say, what you're saying is irrelevant because he was being asked about the attorney general hear and essentially or it was being asked about one of the allegations about a golf course in Scotland. And Trump's answer was about how it's an oil capital as he was framing it in Scotland saying that that's why he believes the property value would be much higher.

And at that point, the judge did interrupt and said that's irrelevant to the question just answered the question. So, there is still a hint of what we saw in that remarkable first hour of the testimony here where there was clearly such frustration between the judge, at least attorneys.

REID: Yes. That's the only time, maybe one or two times we've seen the judge interrupt Trump caught him off. But such a turnabout from what we saw this morning. It's clear the judge took that break, went reassessed his strategy, how it could potentially help the witness maybe even hurt the overall case or hurts or especially on appeal. And it's just taken a completely different tact in this last hour or so.

COLLINS: Yes. Wolf, Dana, obviously something that we're watching very closely continuing this line of questioning to see, as we should know, this is the only day we do expect Trump to testify. The court is closed tomorrow for election day, several more hours to go, potentially, but it wasn't.

The judge has certainly taken a different approach than earlier when he was repeatedly so fed up with how Trump was answering these questions. Now he's saying, I'm going to defer to the lawyer for the attorney general's office and how they're conducting this line of questioning.

BLITZER: Interesting, indeed. No cameras are allowed in this court today. So, we can't be watching it live. But we do have reporters inside briefing us repeatedly, very quickly on what's going on inside. Dana and Kaitlan, guys, we'll get back to you very soon.

I want to discuss what's going on further with Laura Coates right now CNN's chief legal analyst. Have you ever seen anything like this before?

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: You know, the idea that a former president is taking the stand in this way is very historic, but the idea of a bench trial where a judge is accustomed to the antics of defendant, not so abnormal, but here's a different issue here. This is not a legal defense that Trump is trying to put on. It is a political ones.

He would like to have the cameras in the courtroom because he wants to send a message of defiance. Hopefully it will bear it and benefit him politically speaking in the long run. But this judge is very strategic. He knows full well that there is bait that is being put out in the line for him to take, hoping that maybe if I'm an appeal, they will say that he was bias and say against him.

But in reality, what he's saying is, I'd like you to answer the questions. Why because I'm the fact finder. I have to actually hear your response, judge it against the way the Evan (Ph) is supposed to identify the prosecution and decide something from that. The more he attempts to meander and grandstand and make political speeches, the less inclined to judges to have an actual factual predicate to find in his favor. BASH: But you know, what, Laura, what's interesting about the point you just made is your sort of describing a scenario in which this is a normal trial. And I know normal is not the word we should use for any of this. But by that what I mean is that we have a couple of quotes, from Donald Trump this morning to the judge the first two that we have.

One is, he said, I'm sure the judge will rule against me because he always rules against me. And the second one, this is a very unfair trial. Here's the first one. This is a very unfair trial. Very, very, and I hope the public is watching Elliot.

I spoke to somebody in Trump's world about this going into today, who made very clear that what we might see is a aggressive request for a mistrial. Is it possible that, I don't know if we'll get it, but is it possible that the tact that the former president took this morning, these are two quotes that are examples is going for just that.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes. I rolled my eyes, he's not going to get a mistrial here. In order to get a mistrial trial, you have to have some egregious error from the court or a jury. We didn't have that here that deprives the defendant of his ability to have a trail.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Couldn't he be baiting the judge?

WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely. He's baiting the judge into overstepping or doing something impermissible look, and this is cosine, everything the esteemed Laura Coates has said. There's a political strategy and a legal strategy. This is a political strategy playing to the folks in South Carolina and Nevada or wherever else, but not the judge. He could lose this trial on the basis of his conduct.

There was a statement that the judges made, I'm prepared to draw every negative inference against your testimony, if you continue doing this. I can kick you out of this courtroom in a civil trial. And that may well happen, he could lose the trial and lose $250 million. Now, whether voters still vote for him is not the judge's concern. But you know, it's important to separate out these two things that are happening.

COATES: Remember, by the way, taking a step back. He is arguing, I understand that he was not committing fraud. We're past that. The judge has already said it's every judgment motion. You have fraudulent statements that were made in these financial statements.

[12:10:00]

Now the question is, how expensive is it going to be for you to try to pay for that, whether you had your business license and beyond. And so, they do have these six other counts. They're not going to put all their eggs in one basket as a prosecution. They're going to want to try to prove every single account in this case. But you're talking oranges and apples here when the judge is saying, I've already found against you there, now convinced me why you're not paying the quarter of a billion dollars.

BORGER: You know, this is definitional for Trump in so many ways. It's definitional for him in the political sense, which is that he's strong, he fights back. You know, this is what people like about him. He's a fighter, and he's also a victim who's been treated, you know, unfairly.

In a legal sense and in a personal sense, this is what's at stake here is something he has sold to the public and to himself about his own personal success as a businessman, and who he is and the way he identifies himself. I mean, it goes to his very core of who he is. And you know, even back in 2016, he went out on the campaign trail and said, you know, I'm very rich, and I'm a good businessman, and I knew how to take advantage of the tax laws, because I'm smart.

And so, he doesn't want anybody to show that he wasn't in total control of things. Yet, in order to prove his case, he maybe should be doing what his sons did, which is to say, you know what, we didn't really pay attention to this, but he can't -- he can't do that. He's having this internal struggle that we're watching.

BLITZER: Everybody standby for a moment. I want to go back to Kaitlan Collins. She's in New York outside the courthouse. I understand there's some major developments unfolding. What are you learning?

COLLINS: Yes. Well, just as soon as we were talking about how things had kind of tamp down a bit when it comes to the temperature in the courtroom, that appears to have changed because now the Trump -- before the former president is on the witness stand. He is attacking the Attorney General Letitia James, of course, brought this case and is seated in that very courtroom. He is calling the investigation disgraceful. He is attacking her as a political hack.

And at one point, the judge was letting Trump essentially continue with these answers, because the lawyer for the AG's office was saying, I'm not going to strike that from the record, I'm going to let that stay in there because essentially, they believe it could potentially be helpful to them. The judge laughed at that, and said, OK, and then he continued, going on launching this attack on the attorney general for even prosecuting him in the first place.

And so essentially, it was just a few moments where there had been no attacks per se directly from the former president. He was just exaggerating about his properties, talking about why the values were what they work. Now it has gotten back to where he is going after the judge, and he is going after the attorney general. And I think the question here is how the judge is going to respond to that, because he was quite frustrated with it earlier today.

BLITZER: Kaitlan, doesn't Trump understand this isn't a jury trial? It's up to the judge to decide how many millions and millions of dollars he winds up paying, and what happens to his business opportunities in New York, what happens to all those properties. Why is he going after this judge so publicly, so angrily?

COLLINS: It's certainly not what an attorney would typically suggest, because it is the judge who is the decision maker here of how much in damages Trump has to pay. But his attorneys have been sparring with the judge here in this case. Last week, they were going after the judges' law clerk criticizing the communications between the two of them. Trump himself has been fined by this judge $15,000 himself for going after that clerk.

And when he took the stand today, he was certainly not trying to gain good favor with the judge. I mean, it was very quickly combative, with the judge being frustrated with how Trump was answering these questions. And the judge himself has noted that well, that he is the decision maker here. And yet, this is not something that Trump seems to be arguing that point.

I think part of that could be a strategy that Trump already knows that he has lost his case, basically, because the judge decided beforehand that yes, he was liable for fraud. And what we saw is them laying the ground for an appeal. I mean, the Trump is clearly potentially trying to provoke the judge here. The judges' frustrations have been made quite clear in court.

I think that's a question of how that would look upon appeal. And if the Trump legal team would try to use that to their advantage, but certainly, Wolf, he's not trying to win the judge over by any means and is instead continuing with this behavior that the judge is so clearly frustrated by.

BASH: Thank you so much, Kaitlan. Let us know when you hear more. And, Jamie, that last point. And that's something we have to keep underscoring. Laura, you said this before that this is a civil trial, and he's already effectively been found liable, not guilty because it's not criminal, but libel. And so, he knows that's the case. And he's playing for a potential mistrial and potential appeal and overarching political for the for the public.

[12:15:00]

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Donald Trump knows how to behave in court. He has spent a lot of I'm in court he knows better than this and I think that's why the point of if he's already been found libel is so important. So, what I think is going on in there is very much a political strategy going back, Dana, to the "you had where he said it was so unfair." And then he said, I hope the public is watching."

There is no question that that's the court that he is playing to right now. He knows that his base, and by the way, voters in general talk to political strategist. They like politicians who attack, attack, attack. And now that a couple of days ago, he had this poll where he's looking very good. I think this is Donald Trump emboldened and that this is about politics today.

COATES: Well, you know, you're right. And I agree with you, I mean, and why he's doing it strategically. But as my mom always says, you can't have your cake and eat it too much to my chagrin, which is, you can on the one hand tell me your control and run everything. And you know, every T that's crossed and every eye that dotted. The other hand tell me that, but you did not know that what was on those forums was false and fraudulent, and wanted someone to rely on those things. That's what Eric and Don Jr. had tried to do, which of course, no one is perceiving them as the head honcho in the Trump organization was already been testimony from the former CFO, from Allen Weisselberg, who has already said, not only did I have this representations, but they showed were Donald Trump before they handed him over. So, he cannot win on both of course.

GANGEL: This is also so personal for him. I mean, this business has been his identity, even as much as being president -- -

BASH: His identity has been on his business.

BORGER: Yes, exactly. And, you know, he said, on the witness stand today, people don't know how good a company I built, and then he accused the state of trying to demean him. So, this gives you a sense of, you know, I'm king of this hill. I was president of the United States, and I should have it again.

And by the way, this company was all about me, and I built it. You know, nevermind what his father gave him to start out, et cetera, et cetera. And so, this is so personal for him in a way that I don't think he can. It may be a strategy, but he's also not controllable. When you talk about something that is so personal to him, he acts out.

WILLIAMS: So look, the facts are there. And there's plenty of data in the court and the pleadings from the state attorney general about the valuations and the fraud, and the lies and so on. It's all there, if you live in a world of facts, where facts actually matter.

But I think the winning argument is because back to Jamie's point that not the winning argument, the argument that the Trump team is hoping to capitalize on as the public doesn't know the difference between the New York State attorney general, the New York D.A., the special counsel operating out of Washington and prosecuting in Georgia. I think they're just seeing it and they're making the argument that it's one big witch hunt coming out to the president and that's going to work with some people.

BASH: And they're not just seeing it. It's a strategy by the former president and his political team to conflate all of them together. And again, what we're watching is a civil fraud trial. In New York, the New York attorney general is seeking $250 million in damages, and to bar Donald Trump from doing business in New York.

Everybody standby. We're going to talk more about the strategy from the Trump camp. And also speak to one of his 2024 rivals, his former friend, former advisor -- the former governor of New Jersey. Chris Christie, he's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: We have new details coming in from Trump's civil fraud trial in New York. I want to go back to CNN's Kaitlan Collins. She's just outside the courthouse. It seems that Trump, I take it, Kaitlan is not letting up at all.

COLLINS: No. Things have gone downhill. And just the last few moments inside that courtroom where Trump has stopped answering the questions from the attorney general's office and is instead launching attacks on that attorney general who I should note Letitia James is sitting in the front row. And he was also attacking the judge here. Judge Arthur Engoron, who of course, is really the decision maker here and the damages that Trump is going to have to pay him.

And Paula Reid, as we're looking at these updates of where we had that chaotic first hour, they took a 15-minute break, they came back in the room just to remind people who haven't been watching this as closely as we have. And then things seem to be going pretty steady. The judge was not interrupting. But now the judge is once again getting involved and telling Trump that he's asking irrelevant or answering in relevant ways when he's answering.

But what's notable here is how the AG's office is continuing on with their line of questioning? And what I was reading is that after one kind of soliloquy from Trump, that the attorney general's lawyer just said, are you done and Trump said, I've done.

REID: They clearly believe there is a benefit to letting him talk. But it was remarkable to hear Trump from the witness stand directly attack the attorney general. We have these quotes from our colleagues inside the courtroom. I'll read some of them.

Trump looked at the attorney general and said, this is a political witch hunt. And I think she, the attorney general should be ashamed of herself. He called her a political hack, more than once. He said, "I think she used this case to try to become governor, when she successfully use this case to become attorney general."

I mean, he has accused her of political bias. She did on the campaign trail when she was running for this job, mentioned a desire to bring him to justice. He said, "on the stand, this is a political witch hunt and I think she shouldn't be ashamed of herself." But he wasn't done. Then he turned to the judge and noted that he had called him a fraud and didn't know anything about me.

[12:25:00]

Now of course, I believe he is referring to the fact that the judge has concluded that Trump and his co-defendants have committed fraud. And now they're just focused on penalties. And the judge shot back. He said, "read my opinion, perhaps for the first time." It's a little snarky for the judge. But so far, the judge has been giving Trump more leeway than he did the first half of the day, but Trump went on.

He said to the judge, it's a terrible thing you've done. You believe this political hack the attorney general and that's unfortunate. Kaitlan, this is remarkable for Trump to attack not only the attorney general, but also the judge who he's here today to convince not to impose maximum penalties.

Again, they'd gotten more on track, they're moving along, answering questions, but here Trump using the opportunity to sort of make a political statement attacking the attorney general and the judge. This is not something that defendants to in any ordinary courtroom. But of course, there's nothing ordinary about this.

KAITLAN: Yes. And I think Wolf and Dana, what's notable here is the line of questioning that appears to have set Trump off, which was when the IG's office asked him if he agreed with the case that she is bringing that he is liable for this. And also, the summary judgment that Judge Engoron has already found here, which is that Trump is liable for fraud. It's a question of how much he owes in damages. And that is, when Trump stopped answering those questions. He did not say yes or no, that's when these attacks on the judge and on the AG started.

BLITZER: Interesting because the questions that Trump is being asked very often, can you give us a yes or no answer. And Trump then go delivers a speech and the judge says that is totally inappropriate. All right guys, standby. We're going to get back to you soon. I know, you're constantly getting updates on what's going on inside that civil fraud trial. Dana?

BASH: We're joined now by former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, one of the candidates, of course, challenging Donald Trump for the Republican nomination. Thank you so much for being here, Governor. You're also a former prosecutor, and a former friend, very good friend of Donald Trump, knowing him and knowing the way a courtroom works the way you do. What do you think his play is here?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He knows that he's committed fraud, he knows that this is over. And this is just about playing to the grandstand, Dana? He knows that he's going to have very little impact upon the damages in this case. No matter what he says, because he knows that at core, he did exactly what they're accusing him of doing, which was to inflate his net worth in an attempt to be able to borrow more money and to get more favorable terms from the bankers and financers that he was working with.

And so, this is not the least bit surprising to me. Donald Trump, under normal circumstances, can ask answer and direct question. And a number of U.N. on that panel right now have interviewed him. So, you know, that's the case. And that's when he's under very little stress. Imagine the stress he's under now, knowing he may never be able to do business again, in the state where he was born and raised and built the company that his father left to him into the even bigger company than it became.

BASH: And, you know, you mentioned how sort of personal this is for him. And the fact that this, this has already been decided. He already has been found liable. And the question is, how much is he going to pay when it comes to damages?

One of the things that I've been hearing from his political team is that they wanted to use today as kind of a political and legal Super Bowl to try to take the support that he has. And as one of his opponents, I know that you're painfully aware that he has a lot of support within the Republican electorate and make it even more hardened. Do you think that is a real possibility in the upside-down world that we're living in?

CHRISTIE: I don't think so for this reason, Dana, they're not seeing it. They're hearing it being characterized by reporters in the courtroom. This would be much more of an effective strategy for Donald Trump if you were on camera. If you were on camera, and there were cameras in that courtroom, I think that would be a much more effective strategy for him, given that he's going to lose on the legal case anyway, so he could do it.

This really, I don't think will translate much with people. I think this will be a lot of noise. And those who believe that he's being persecuted will continue to believe that, and those who don't, don't. But this is why I've said all along that he will eventually show up on the debate stage because he knows that his most effective moments are when he's on television, when he's on camera, looking into the camera being able to make his case.

What he doesn't want, is he doesn't want me to be on the stage when that happens.