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Trump Attacks AG & Judge, Calls Investigation "Disgraceful"; Trump Takes The Stand In NY Civil Fraud Trial. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired November 06, 2023 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What he doesn't want is he doesn't want me to be on the stage when that happens, and that's why the RNC is raising these requirements and all the rest. That's why anyone out there who wants to make sure I'm on that stage should go to chrischristie.com, donate $1 and make sure that I am and that the RNC doesn't get to take you take me out.

But he knows that him being on TV is what makes his arguments more powerful to the people who watch him. He knows that when people read those arguments, they sound a little crazy.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: OK. So just to push back on that that idea that the more he's on TV, the more he thinks he does well. I mean, that might be true when -- from his perspective in his head. And I guess that's what you're getting at there.

But when it comes to the perspective of voters, we saw a poll out yesterday from the New York Times, not a national poll, a poll in the determinative swing states, Nevada, Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, all of which show Donald Trump beating Joe Biden, and then in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, too close to call. If that is the case -- and I'm an undecided Republican voter, why would I vote for anybody other than him if my goal is to beat Joe Biden?

CHRISTIE: Well, first of all, because it's a year away and a year away from, you know, last, last year or eight years ago rather at this time, Ben Carson was 10 points ahead in the Republican primary in Iowa. We know how that went. There's a ways to go here.

But getting back to the point of TV, Dana, I mean, look, he absolutely believes that that's where he's most effective. And, by the way, on the polls that you saw yesterday, if he can't beat Joe Biden right now, when inflation is where it is, when there are two wars going on at the same time and Joe Biden is in the midst of this storm, if he can't be ahead of him now, when would he ever be ahead of him?

So, you know, I don't -- I think he should take, you know, comfort from those polls, but very, very temporary comfort, because the same way the world was much different on October 6th than it was on October 7th, given the Hamas attack on Israel, who knows what is going to happen next that might help Donald Trump or hurt him. But I suspect that the biggest thing that's going to hurt him is he's going to wind up paying a big number in this case, and we'll see if he even has the money to be able to do that, the cash to be able to do it. And secondly, he is getting ready to go to trial on March 4th in Washington, D.C. on a criminal trial where he won't be able to come in and out of the courtroom like he's doing now, Dana.

He has to be there every minute of every day that the court --

BASH: Yes.

CHRISTIE: -- is in session and he's going to see Mark Meadows 20 feet from him testifying that the former Freedom Caucus guy in the House, his former chief of staff, is going to say he lied on election night, he committed crimes to try to stop the election results from being validated and confirmed. And that's not going to be some rogue Democratic prosecutor, Dana. That's going to be his former chief of staff, who he called the next James Baker. Times are getting worse and the walls are closing in.

BASH: Governor, because there has been a lot of news that's off the campaign trail, people might not have seen what you experienced in Florida on Saturday at a Republican summit. You got a pretty rough reception from a very pro-Trump crowd. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIE: Well now it feels like home. Thank you all very much. Your anger against the truth is reprehensible. The problem is you want to shout down any voice that says anything different than what you want to hear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: I don't think I've ever seen a politician appear to have so much fun at a crowd that was so hostile. Talk about what that means in all candor about the reality of this race that you're running and the people you are trying to appeal to who, so far, are very difficult for you to reach.

CHRISTIE: Well, I wasn't trying to appeal to the people who were yelling and screaming, Dana.

BASH: Well, I just mean the broader electorate (ph), of course.

CHRISTIE: They're already committed to Donald Trump. And that's the fallacy of this race. Well, but, look, if you listen to the rest of the speech, you know, there were a number of times where I got some really good applause in that speech because there are people in that room who are not for Donald Trump. But the ones who are for Donald Trump, you know, were yelling and screaming.

OK. You know, the reason why I was having fun with it is because I knew that's exactly what was going to happen if I went to this Republican Party of Florida summit. And what I wanted to show the rest of the voters in this country is there is one candidate who's willing to stand up to Donald Trump.

[12:35:08]

There is one candidate who's willing to stand up to the bullying and the yelling and the screaming and the lying. And I'm the candidate. Every one of the other ones who you'll see on the stage on Wednesday night all raised their hand and said they would support a convicted felon to be the Republican nominee for president. I'm the only one on the stage who kept my hand down.

This is a determining issue in this race. Donald Trump is the issue in this race. More than any other topic, he's it. And they've said, Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Vivek Ramaswamy, they've said, we're with him.

Ramaswamy says he's the greatest president of the 21st century. You know, Nikki Haley has said after January 6th that we should all give him a break. I mean, you know, look, this is the determining issue. And if you want that to be what you are absolutely aiming for, and that is what I'm aiming for, is to be the Republican nominee, you have to take on those hecklers head on and direct.

And, by the way, if Republicans think that Democrats are going to be any easier in the fall, they're kidding themselves. They're not going to give up power without a fight. And the fact is that I'm the one who's willing to take on the fight. Donald Trump stays away from the stage because he's a coward and he doesn't want to make the fight and the rest of them are too afraid of Donald Trump to say his name out loud.

BASH: Chris Christie, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.

CHRISTIE: Thank you, Dana. Thanks for having me.

BASH: And much more of our live special coverage after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:41:23]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to our special coverage. Former President Donald Trump on the witness stand for the third hour in his new New York civil fraud trial.

BASH: CNN's Kaitlan Collins is in Manhattan outside the courthouse with new details. You're getting them by the minute from our team inside. What's the latest, Kaitlan?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Yes, Dana. It's quite tense inside that courtroom right now. What is going on is they're talking about something that is kind of at the heart of this, which is Trump exaggerating and not only his net worth, but also the size of his properties. And what has really been at the center of this is his apartment inside Trump Tower. That is something where publicly Trump bragged even beyond what his financial statements said was the size of that apartment. I believe the financial statement said it was about 30,000 square feet. Trump brags in an interview with Forbes when they were talking about his net worth that it was actually 30,000 -- 33,000 square feet. But in reality, we have since learned that it is much closer to 11,000 square feet, and that is just an example of why Donald Trump is testifying in this courtroom behind me.

He, obviously, stands accused by the Attorney General of inflating his net worth, inflating the size and value of his assets in order to get more favorable terms for his loans that he secured. He's arguing that there was no real victim in that.

But what he was just asked by the AG's office while he is on the witness stand is who in the Trump organization was responsible for identifying something like this, where a number was significantly off. Because Trump in his own words was telling Forbes that it was even higher than what his financial statement said.

He just told the attorney general office, the lawyer for the attorney general's office that everybody at the Trump organization he claimed was responsible for that. He also flagged the outside accounting firm that they had hired, saying that they are someone that he believed would have flagged that.

The question, though, is whether or not that is a defense that goes over well with the judge. Trump has not really been answering these questions and yes or no -- in a yes or no fashion. That has been very frustrating to the judge here, and so that has been a big part of this.

CNN's Kristen Holmes is over at Trump Tower, where, of course, is the source of part of all of this dispute over how big exactly this apartment was. Kristen, obviously, I mean, the question over the size of these apartments is something that is playing into just what is at the heart of this, which is Trump exaggerating the size of these properties, the value of these properties, and now trying to kind of say, well, everyone was responsible for this. Not saying he himself was responsible for those numbers that they were giving to these financial institutions.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right Kaitlan, and we know of course that this goes to the core identity of who Donald Trump is. It's this over inflation, this exaggeration, and that is something that he has built his entire really personal brand and political brand on.

He is somebody who has routinely said that he was a successful businessman. He built his entire identity around being a successful businessman in New York, so it really does cut at the core of who he is as a person if he has to admit that he was inflating some of those numbers.

I mean, you remember back in 2016 when he was running for president, one of his big arguments to Americans across the country was if -- look how wealthy and successful that I am. I could do that for you too. I could run this country like a business. And I will tell, you just moments ago, I spoke to a Trump adviser who said they believe that his testimony is going well, that they are very happy with the way that this is unfolding. And the reason why is because they say that he is turning this into the Trump show, which means that he is winning.

[12:45:01]

And when you look at that and think about what exactly they are saying, they're saying but we have heard time and time again, which is there is no line between his legal strategy and his political strategy. That they are going to use each of these trials, each of these testimonies as a way to further his political careers, a way for him to get on camera.

Now, of course, he's not on camera in the courtroom, but he does know that there are eyes on this. That is why every single time he comes out of the courtroom, he is walking by the cameras. He's walking to the cameras. He wants to interact with the media. He wants to interact with those cameras to essentially further what he's doing, messaging wise on the political side.

They believe that there is a strategy here that he can continue to paint himself like a victim, like a political martyr, say this is election interference. And that that will work for him in 2024. Of course, we aren't sure what that actually looks like in 2024.

But as you did mention, we've seen those recent polls in the New York Times that show that he is leading in so many of these hypothetical head to heads in crucial battleground states. And so something to really keep an eye on here. They believe this is a winning strategy for them.

COLLINS: Yes, really interesting that they think this is a winning strategy. His attorney's been calling his answers brilliant. The judge clearly does not agree and he is the decision maker here.

Kristen Holmes, thank you for that. We'll check back in with you. We'll also continue to check in with what is being said inside that courtroom where Donald Trump is still on the witness stand. We'll be back with our live special coverage right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:50:16]

BLITZER: You're looking at live pictures from the civil fraud trial in New York involving, of course, Donald Trump. The former president has been testifying for the past few hours in this civil fraud trial. The former federal prosecutor and CNN Legal Analyst, Elliot Williams, is here with us to walk us through what's going on and to show some points.

There you see Trump leaving. They're just taking a lunch break right now. Trump was expected to say something, but he just walked, continued walking. ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, it is his right to not say anything. He's not obligated to. Something we were talking about through the program, Wolf, is the idea that the president is sort of, or the former president, is using this opportunity as a bit of a political show. There will certainly be more opportunities for him to talk, and I'd be shocked if he didn't later on.

BLITZER: Tell us what the New York attorneys know. Leticia James's attorney.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BLACKWELL: She's the Attorney General of New York, what they're trying to do.

WILLIAMS: Right. Well, there's a series of claims that they're trying to bring. Now, number one, falsifying business records, a conspiracy to falsify business records. This case is really about things that are on paper not just buildings. And there are a number of business records in the form of what were called statements of financial condition, where the Trump team was believed to have grossly inflated, facts and information about buildings and the foreign president's network.

And pardon me. And this also extends to financial statements, falsifying financial statements, and fraud on insurance.

BLITZER: These are all crimes, too.

WILLIAMS: Well, yes, they can be charged as crimes. These were -- this is a civil lawsuit brought by the Attorney General. So it's, in effect, a lawsuit on behalf of the state of New York, the citizens of the state of New York against the former president.

BLITZER: Before walking into court today --

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BLITZER: -- Trump insists that he claimed that Mar-a-Lago, his little resort, country club, whatever it is, down in Palm Beach, is worth. He says, and I'm quoting him now, "50 to 100 times more than what has been argued in court".

WILLIAMS: So this is -- this whole idea of what properties are worth is also what's at the heart of this here. And if you look at a number of the other properties here, Wolf, that are at the issue here, the Trump Tower penthouse, now there was a lot of information about this being valued or estimated to be 11,000 square feet. That's what it was appraised at.

But, you know, the Trump team said it was 30,000 square feet, where there's no error that anyone could make. It would be a reasonable error that would make something close to three times its size. Looking also at 40 Wall Street, it was appraised at between $200 million and $220 million. The Trump team reported that it was worth $527 million, almost two and a half times as much. These aren't just, at least as the allegations are coming from the state attorney general, these aren't just errors in mathematics, they're evidence of fraud, and that's what the judge is weighing here.

BLITZER: I thought it was interesting that the New York attorney general's legal team started off by asking, by asking about the hierarchy of the Trump organization. Tell us why.

WILLIAMS: Well, the people who are in any organization, in any enterprise when you are filing a lawsuit against the enterprise who's on top and who's running running the operation is going to be critical. Now, Donald Trump, Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr. are all defendants in this case.

Notably, Ivanka Trump is not because of a statute of limitations issue, she was removed from the case. And so it was important I think to establish on behalf of the court. Number one, what did these individuals who were running the Trump organization know about these valuations, know about the statements of financial conditions and net worth?

And a number of these folks on the bottom here, you know, colorful figures in the Trump orbit. Michael Cohen testified I think about a week ago in the first time that the two of them had been face to face in quite some time.

BLITZER: Allen Weisselberg, the former CFO, the chief financial officer of the Trump organization, he had been working with Trump for about 40 years. That's a long time.

WILLIAMS: Well, it is a long time, and that's the kind of witness that either prosecutors or state attorneys general want to have in a case like this, because they will know, in effect, for lack of a better term where the bodies are buried, and they will know at least here how valuations worked and what kind of decisions were made.

BLITZER: Since the judge in this case already concluded that Trump committed fraud --

WILLIAMS: Right.

BLITZER: -- right, what's at stake now? What's going to happen?

WILLIAMS: Oh, a few things. Number one, financial penalties. We were talking about this a little bit earlier in the program. But depending on how convinced the judge is of the nature of the fraud and the conduct that's happened here, there could be an up to $250 million financial penalty on the Trump Organization.

Now, look, if former President Trump is actually a billionaire, you know, on that scale, this may be a drop in the bucket, who knows? But the bigger -- and I say that for an important reason, this idea of a loss of business certificate is, in effect, an act of the death penalty on a corporation. In order to exist as a corporation, you've got to be certified in a state.

[12:55:01]

And if that is removed, the Trump Organization could cease to operate, at least in the state of New York, which could be devastating to their business. Forget the money. The money is important. It's lost a certificate. That's really a big deal.

BLITZER: So the Trump office building, the Trump towers, the Trump hotels could be taken away from it?

WILLIAMS: They could. Now, it all remains to be seen how that would operate. Certainly, the organization may still be allowed to exist, but just can't operate in New York, and that'll be an open question for the months and years ahead. But it is quite profound if that certificate is taken away.

BLITZER: Yes. Trump Tower, he can't exactly move a huge building like that and move it to another state. All right, we're going to continue this conversation. Elliot, thanks very much.

We're going to go back to the New York courthouse with the latest on former President Trump's testimony. Our live special coverage continues right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)