Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Blinken Says Israel Cannot Occupy Gaza; Maj. Mike Lyons is Interviewed about the Israel-Hamas War; Trump Skipping Third Debate; Democrats Score Big Wins; House Passes Censure Resolution for Tlaib. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired November 08, 2023 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: To see that testimony.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: It will be. And - but she is not - in this case, she is not part of this case, but she does has to testify in this case. So that's -

BERMAN: Important point.

SIDNER: Yes.

BERMAN: She is not a defendant.

SIDNER: Yes. Yes. All right, thank you, John.

All right, the five hour window set up by the Israeli military for people in northern Gaza to evacuate to southern Gaza is now closed. Thousands of people took to the streets as the Israeli military says its troops are now in the heart of Gaza. And Secretary of State Antony Blinken seeming to respond to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's remarks about Israel having overall security responsibility for Gaza when this conflict ends.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: One, Gaza cannot be continued to be run by Hamas. It's also clear that Israel cannot occupy Gaza.

Now, the reality is that there may be a need for some transition period at the end of the conflict, but it is imperative that the Palestinian people be central to governance in Gaza and in the West Bank as well and that, again, we don't see a reoccupation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Blinken also renewed his objections to an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

I want to bring in Jim Sciutto, live for us in Jerusalem. There's a couple of things to talk about here, the ceasefire issue

that was brought up, but also you hear Blinken saying that Israel should not reoccupy Gaza. What does that mean for this conflict long term?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. Well, he says they should not reoccupy, but you heard in his statement there that a transition period is to be expected. And that, like so many things in this conflict, in the war underway now, and whatever follows the war, the time period has not been defined.

How long of a transition period is the U.S. willing to support? He seemed to be saying the U.S. will not support an endless one, but who's going to define how long of a security presence there is necessary for the Israeli military? To date those decisions have been principally Israeli decisions. How far to go into Gaza, what methods to use, what munitions to use, et cetera. They've been getting advice from the U.S., but they're making their own decisions.

And that's yet another one that might, well, not just put it into conflict with other parties in the region here, particularly the Arab leaders, but there's a difference there between what Netanyahu is saying and what Secretary of State Blinken is saying. How they resolve that conflict, we don't know.

But you bring up the other point as well, Sara, which is the issue of ceasefires, because, again, this has been something of a football back and forth between the U.S. and Israeli leaders. The U.S. has supported some sort of pause. But it was notable today to hear Blinken say, actually, it's Arab leaders calling for a full-on ceasefire who have to then explain how Hamas is kept in check if Israel were to stop military activities for a day or two days or three days. So, the U.S. at least endorsing to some degree Israel's position there, which is that we can't stop. We can't stop because Hamas remains a threat. And, frankly, that's what Israel has been doing, as we've seen these ground operations continue.

SIDNER: We're looking at some of the results of the air strikes there in (INAUDIBLE), Gaza, which have been devastating to the population there. So we will, of course, be watching this story, and thank you for being there. I think you're right outside the old city, if I'm not mistaken, from the looks of things.

SCIUTTO: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

SIDNER: All right, Jim Sciutto, thank you so much. We'll be checking back in with you soon.

John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now, retired Army Major Mike Lyons.

Major, great to have you here.

Let's talk about what's happening inside Gaza right now. The Israeli - the IDF has surrounded, it is inside Gaza City. We have new video provided by the IDF from northern Gaza of what they're doing. What are we seeing here?

MAJ. MIKE LYONS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): John, doctrinally this is called clearing operations, combining engineered assets, like you see here, bulldozers, with the tanks, armored forces to protect those engineer assets. Soldiers now going in to specifically go after likely tunnels or specific places where they think that the enemy is. So, again, part of where this - where this battle is right now, clearing operations.

BERMAN: And once they're in, they've also got to pay attention to what's behind them, right?

LYONS: Yes, no question. So, as they've - as they've come into certain areas, they come around the city here, in clearing operations you're always concerned about counterattacks. And in this particular situation with all the tunnels that they have, Hamas will continue to pop up behind those Israeli forces. So, the commanders on the ground are focused on two things. They're focused on moving forward, but at the same time watching what's going on in their rear area of operations only because of -- that's where those attacks are going to come from.

BERMAN: Want to talk a little bit about - about how the Israelis have gone about this. We said they came in from three directions, from the northeast, the northwest and also from the south of Gaza City here. And there are reports now that this southern line here, cutting off northern Gaza, has almost reached the sea here, has past Tel al-Hawa right now and has almost reached the sea.

[09:35:04]

What's the significance of that?

LYONS: Well, that was always the intent I think. As they came in from the north here, they used the sea in their back to protect - to protect them. To find themselves - you know, that protection there. But now, by coming in, in this direction here, getting to here, they've now completely - they'll completely surround Gaza City. They'll continue to encircle it, go after those tunnels. They're sending dogs. They're sending, you know, explosives, all kinds of things, knowing full well that from a military objective those tunnels have to be destroyed.

BERMAN: Major Mike Lyons, great to have you here. Thank you so much.

Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Coming up for us, Donald Trump will be in south Florida tonight but will not be on the debate stage in Miami with the other Republican presidential candidates. The new reporting this morning on how they are preparing to take on each other and the absent frontrunner.

And a bitter divide between Democrats is being exposed right now. Nearly two dozen Democrats voting to formally censure fellow Democratic Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib over her pro-Palestinian chant, "from the river to the sea." We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:40:26]

BOLDUAN: So, tonight is the night. Five Republicans will take the stage in Miami. How many will be walking off with their heads held high and campaigns still intact? We will see. One thing we do know, though, is that Donald Trump is continuing with his counterprogramming effort by not showing up yet again and yet again holding a rally nearby in south Florida.

Let's go to Miami. CNN's Jeff Zeleny is there.

Jeff, what are you learning about why Trump is holding this counterprogramming rally in Hialeah?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, we know that the former president does not want to be on the debate stage. We know that he does not want to be questioned on challenged. So, he is going to hold another rally in Hialeah, Florida. Of course, he's trying to focus on what he believes is a growing advantage for him, and perhaps other Republican candidates as well, that is the broader umbrella of the Hispanic voters, particularly men.

We've seen in poll after poll, survey after survey, including our latest CNN poll looking at a head to head hypothetical matchup with President Biden and former President Donald Trump, Hispanic men in particular are one area where Democrats are struggling with. So, we are told that that is one of the things that former President Donald Trump will be focusing on tonight, talking about socialism, talking about other things he believes that Democrats represent.

Of course, you'll remember back to the 2020 campaign, even the 2016 campaign, former President Donald Trump carried the state of Florida. It has always long been a swing state. It certainly has been trending Republican in recent elections. So, that is one of the reasons he'll be in Hialeah.

But, Kate, make no mistake, this is not simply a speech just to reach out to Latino voters. And, of course, they are not a monolith by any stretch. But this is going to be an opportunity for him to show grievances, which we've heard every time he holds a rally, talking about his indictments, et cetera. So, he does not want to be on the debate stage. He wants to hold a separate counterprogramming.

But this is aimed first and foremost directly at Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. The former president will be surrounded by some Florida officials who have endorsed his candidacy over the Florida governor. But, Kate, when you sort of step back and sit here, this is the first debate in Florida in the governor's home state. He carried Florida by nearly 20 points last November. A year ago. Now he is struggling to be seen as the leading alternative and the former president clearly is wanting to take a shot at him tonight. So, that is why the former president will not be in this debate hall. He'll be holding a rally on his own.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: It's good to see you, Jeff. Glad you're there. Thank you.

Sara.

SIDNER: All right, thank you, Kate.

Joining us now, Republican strategist Doug Heye and former Trump White House deputy press secretary Sarah Matthews.

Good morning to both of you and thank you for joining us.

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Thank you.

SIDNER: Let's start with - let's start with the easy one, Doug Heye. Like, what did you think about what happened from this special election? What does it tell Republicans?

HEYE: Well, it tells them that clearly they have a problem with how they're communicating and also what's being legislated, whether it's in the state legislatures or on ballots when it comes to abortion, and how quickly that issue has moved.

I think what Governor Youngkin put forth is where most voters were before the Dobbs decision, 15 weeks. Most voters didn't like abortion, wanted it to be, to use Bill Clinton's term, rare, safe and legal with exceptions. But those politics don't exist anymore. And as Republicans find themselves legislating out loud, what we've learned is, all politics are not local anymore. All politics are national. And so what South Carolina does determines a lot of what's voted in Ohio or Virginia.

SIDNER: Doug Heye said it here, all politics are not local anymore, which is really, really different from what we've all experienced for so many decades.

Sarah, we've got this debate coming up. What should the five candidates that are going to be on the stage, what should they be doing? What should -- how should they be changing their message because of what happened, or should they just stay the way they've always stayed and go with what they've always done?

SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: Look, a lot of the candidates on the debate stage tonight, with the exception of Chris Christie, have shied away from attacking Donald Trump. But we're already seeing a change in messaging. I've seen from team DeSantis and team Haley that they have come out this morning and said that last night needs to be a wake-up call for Republicans, and that they're tired of the culture of losing.

Look, the Republican Party lost in 2018, 2020, 2021, 2022 and now 2023. And so I'm encouraged to see them be a little bit more aggressive with their messaging of saying that, look, Trump is the leader of our party and all we've done is lose over the last several years under his leadership.

[09:45:05]

And so there needs to be a change. And so I'm hoping to see a more aggressive stance from these folks on the debate stage tonight and a willingness to take on Donald Trump more aggressively.

SIDNER: Can I -- you mentioned Nikki Haley. And I'm curious to ask you what you think this surge tells you about what voters want, at least Republican voters in this case. And this is to Sarah.

MATTHEWS: I do think that there is a desire from Republican voters for there to be an alternative to Donald Trump. And we've seen that with the rise in the polls from Nikki Haley. And she had two very strong debate performances. She had some momentum on her side. But until the field narrows down and we can offer one single alternative to Donald Trump, I don't see a path for someone to effectively actually challenge him and defeat him in the primary.

And so right now I think, as the field stands, it's too large. And so my hope is that the other folks in the field will see that there is an urgent need to defeat Donald Trump in the primary if we want to change this culture of losing in the Republican Party, and will drop out of the race and throw their support behind Nikki Haley, who stands the best chance to beat him.

SIDNER: But here is the issue, if you look at the polling, and I know we're a year out, but Donald Trump is still far and away the frontrunner. So, does this election that we've just seen the results of change that? Do you think that this -- you know, what might this -- how might this change the presidential election, do you think, Doug?

HEYE: Well, look, we've put this construct in our politics where everything that happens is a result of Donald Trump. And if we're talking about football, it's all about Taylor Swift. That's sort of all we're allowed to talk about these days.

But what happened last night wasn't really about Donald Trump. Sure, we can talk MAGA Republicans or what have you, but it's about ballot initiatives that were unpopular with voters, it's about positions and ultimately candidates. We often say races aren't -- Democrats say this, Republicans say this, races aren't won or lost in Washington, D.C. Then we try and define it as to who won or lost it the day after.

We also can look at the spending that was done. Every place where Republicans lost, they were massively outspent. But moving forward, we have five candidates on a debate stage who thus far really haven't taken on Donald Trump. And, you know, we've heard, you know, this phrase of -- so often of watershed moments. And the reality is, January 6th was a watershed moment. The 2018 elections, the 2020 elections were watershed moments.

When your opponent gets indicted, that is a watershed moment for you to use, whether you're running for mayor, council -- city council, senator, what have you. But apparently, if it's Donald Trump, not only do you not attack him on that, you reinforce his messaging. And so for months now Donald Trump has been in a shored up, stronger

position because of those candidates who ostensibly are running against him. And we may be coming to a point where it's much too little, much too late.

SIDNER: Yes, we might see some attacks like we haven't seen before, with the exception of Chris Christie.

All right, Doug Heye, Sarah Matthews, thank you so much for your analysis on what happened last night and what's going to happen today during the debate.

HEYE: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Thank you.

SIDNER: John.

BERMAN: Yes, and if I heard that right, what happened last night was about Taylor Swift.

A rare and significant rebuke at the Capitol. Why more than 20 Democrats joined nearly all Republicans to censure Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:52:15]

SIDNER: A rare rebuke today for the first Palestinian American woman to ever serve in Congress. The House passed a GOP-led resolution to censure Representative Rashida Tlaib over comments that she made of the Israel-Hamas war. Overnight, Tlaib tried to clarify her comments, saying she simply was calling out the Israeli government.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RASHIDA TLAIB (D-MI): But let me be clear, my criticism has always been of the Israeli government and Netanyahu's actions. It is important to separate people and governments, Mr. Chair. No government is beyond criticism.

I can't believe I have to say this, but Palestinian people are not disposable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: The House voted 234-188 with 22 members of Tlaib's own party voting in favor of her censure. Some Democrats were especially critical of her defense of the pro-Palestinian chant "from the river to the sea," which the Anti-Defamation League describes as an anti- Semitic slogan. It basically, for some, means the erasure of Israel.

Joining us now is CNN's Lauren Fox.

Lauren, what are some of the lawmakers saying about this, because it is unusual that several members, more than two dozen, or almost two dozen members of her own party were part of this censure.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Sara, and let's put this in context, too, because last week a similar resolution for Marjorie Taylor Greene, that was broader in its language, it failed on the House floor to censure Rashida Tlaib. This week, of course, it was a different story.

This resolution was more specific, more tailored, but it also speaks to the fact that so many of her Democratic colleagues were beginning to get more and more frustrated with her language, with her not apologizing for her language. And this step yesterday with more than 20 Democrats supporting this censure resolution really does reflect attention within the Democratic Party on how this has been handled, and specifically how Rashida Tlaib has talked about the war between Hamas and Israel.

And you saw some of the impassioned tensions taking place in floor speeches last night.

Here's a bit of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MAX MILLER (R-OH): I believe that actions have consequences. And I believe that after a long string of anti-Semitic remarks and hate- filled rhetoric, censure is an appropriate consequence for the gentle lady from Michigan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gentleman's time has expired.

MILLER: Never again, damn it, means never again.

REP. JAMAAL BOWMAN (D-NY): Please stop misrepresenting Representative Tlaib's words. Without her voice we would lack even more empathy for the people of Palestine!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: Specifically, many of her Democratic colleagues were extremely frustrated and disturbed by the use of the phrase "from the river to the sea," which Rashida Tlaib said in a tweet she viewed as a call for freedom.

[09:55:10]

But as you noted, Sara, many Jewish groups and Jewish lawmakers view that phrase as really an erasure of the state of Israel, something that the Anti-Defamation League has said is an anti-Semitic phrase.

Sara.

SIDNER: It's an extremely emotional issue and, as you might imagine, for a Palestinian American as well as the Jewish population. This is something that we'll be watching for a very long time.

Lauren Fox, thank you so much for your reporting. Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, Ivanka Trump is about to take the stand in the state's - as the state's final witness in the New York civil fraud case against Ivanka's father and family. How costly could her testimony be? We are live at the courthouse.

And a new and innovative use for breast implants and how it saved one man's life. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has this amazing story.

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:00]