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Trump Skipping GOP Debate; Interview With Rep. Jason Crow (D- CO); Democrats Win Big; Ivanka Trump Testifies. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired November 08, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:01:26]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Now it's Ivanka Trump's turn, Donald Trump's elder daughter on the witness stand and under oath in her father's civil fraud trial. What she just said about his allegedly inflated net worth.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And Democrats do it again, beating expectations on election night, despite weak poll numbers for the party's leader, President Biden. Some top Republicans calling last night a complete failure ahead of the GOP's third presidential debate.

So, how will the candidates respond? And where's Donald Trump?

Plus, the U.S. warning Israel against reoccupying Gaza after their war with Hamas is over. So, what should the long-term plan be?

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BROWN: Today, Ivanka Trump is on the stand testifying in a New York courtroom, as the fate of her father's business empire hangs in the balance.

The former Trump Organization executive is not a defendant to the $250 million civil fraud trial. An appellate court removed Ivanka from the case earlier this year. But her father and two adult brothers, Eric and Don Jr., and their company are defendants accused of participating in a decades-long scheme to inflate assets to secure more favorable loans.

Court just broke for launch.

Kara Scannell has been there for the testimony.

What has been revealed so far, Kara?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, Ivanka Trump has been on the stand for about two-and-a-half-hours. And they have gone through some of the deals that she worked on while she was at the Trump Organization and that are part of this lawsuit, including the Doral golf course in Florida and the Old Post Office building in Washington, D.C.

Now, on the Doral project, they have shown her e-mails where she's acknowledging she was negotiating different terms for these -- for the loan they wanted to take out, shopping it around to different banks, ultimately going with Deutsche Bank's private wealth group, with Donald Trump's personal guarantee. That allowed them to get a lower interest rate.

But when she was asked about that, she said it wasn't something she considered at the time that they would have a different rate offered by one side of the bank and another rate, a better rate, offered by another side of the bank, so distancing herself a bit from that.

They also talked about an apartment that she owns in -- here in Manhattan, a penthouse that had an option to buy it for $8.5 million one year. In her father's financial statements, it, though, was listed at $20.8 million, about 2.5 times more than what her option was.

When she was pressed on that, she also distanced herself saying, I wasn't involved in his statements of financial conditions, so I can't say what it took into account or what it didn't take into account.

Now, when we moved over to the Old Post Office building, this was a deal she was heavily involved with in negotiating, getting the deal from the GSA, the federal government, and also in financing the loan of this. So they started to ask questions about this, were focusing her in on the proposal that the Trump Organization presented, which included Trump's financial statements as part of their proposal.

So she was shown some e-mails that indicated that GSA had some questions about the financial statements, that they did not adhere to all the accounting rules. They were really pressing her on this, asking about a meeting where she attended in Washington, D.C., with her father about this.

And she said that she didn't recall them speaking about the financial statements in that meeting. Instead, she said they were talking about the vision for this. And she was making comparisons to that Old Post Office building that they eventually converted into a hotel and the Plaza Hotel in New York.

[13:05:08]

One of the assistant attorney generals questioning her became frustrated because he was saying that she seems to be able to talk at great lengths about things like the Plaza Hotel, but when he asked her a direct question, she doesn't necessarily recall the answer, because, as they have tried to pin her down on some of these specific e-mails, she has said she doesn't recall receiving them.

She says she's not saying that it didn't happen, but she has no memory of it, so her testimony being a little bit in contrast to her brothers, where she is engaging more in the conversation. She does seem to remember more details of them, but also she's saying that she doesn't recall some of these specific details that the attorney general's office is trying to get down.

But, again, as you said, she is not a defendant in this case, so this is not questions that are really going to her state of mind, more that they're trying to just get some of this in the record that there were some questions from the GSA about Trump's financial statements.

And that is because the attorney general's office is trying to use that as far as what they want to collect in terms of damages or ill- gotten gains in this case. So they have already shown documents that show that Trump had sold the Old Post Office building and got $139 million profit from that.

They want to argue to the judge, who will ultimately decide this, that is some money that they should be able to recover. So, this lunch break lasts for about an hour or so. Then Ivanka Trump will be back on the stand still being questioned by the attorney general's office. And that will continue for as long as they think it needs to go -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, a lot to digest there.

Kara Scannell, thanks so much.

So, to help us process everything that's been happening today, let's bring in federal and white-collar criminal defense attorney Caroline Polisi.

So, what has stood out to you so far in terms of the New York attorney general's questioning of Ivanka Trump today?

CAROLINE POLISI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Pam, I think Kara noted quite well what stands out is Ivanka's sort of memory lapses.

Not surprisingly, she is playing it right down the middle. She's saying she can't recall many of these things. She has really tried to distance herself, both politically and legally, from her father and her brothers for a while now.

She fought tooth and nail not to even be here today. She fought that subpoena. A court disagreed with her and made her testify. I think she's trying to get in and out with doing as little damage as possible to her brothers and her father, while maintaining sort of this air of really ignorance with respect to what was going on with the financials.

I would note her tack here is not and antagonistic to her brothers, which Don Jr. and Eric sort of went the, well, I just listened to the accountants route. Here, Ivanka is just saying, well, she doesn't recall, she doesn't remember, she didn't have anything to do with the making of these financial statements.

BROWN: It's interesting, though, because the New York attorney general's lawyer has presented evidence today in court showing that she actually proposed lowering Donald Trump's acquired net worth for a loan down to $2 billion, despite his stated net worth of around $4 billion.

So, does that tell you anything about maybe awareness that his net worth may have been inflated and that she actually was more involved than perhaps she was leading on today in court on some of these other questions?

POLISI: Yes, it absolutely does, Pam.

And, remember, as far as the attorney general goes, they would have liked to have had Ivanka Trump as a co-defendant in this case. She was initially on that caption. She was dismissed for procedural issues, really statute of limitations issues.

So, as far as the attorney general is concerned, she would be liable. However, as Kara noted today, she -- her purpose is one of a witness to try to sort of give insight as to the state of mind of her brothers, her father.

Also, with respect to damages, Kara noted the interest rates on those loans in terms of shopping them around. Part of this -- part of the trial is to determine damages. And part of the theory of damages is that, even though the banks got repaid, they could have charged actually higher interest rates had they known that the net worth was in fact lower towards a more realistic valuation of the actual assets.

And, instead, they gave them great deals on these loans, favorable interest rates and the like.

BROWN: So, does her testimony carry any different weight now that she is testifying today as a witness versus a defendant?

POLISI: I mean, yes, absolutely, right.

So in terms of -- we always talk about in a criminal context, but here it's also applicable state of mind. No longer do we really care about Ivanka's state of mind, because that's what you have to prove with respect to the elements of the charges here for each co-defendant.

[13:10:08]

So, here, we're just -- the -- Tish James, as prosecutor, is just looking to sort of shed more light on the general practices and procedures at Trump Org to get an inside look into the financials and really to authenticate some of these documents that they want to put into evidence.

BROWN: All right, Caroline, thanks so much -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Tonight could have been a Florida face off between the states two biggest Republicans, former President Donald Trump and current Governor Ron DeSantis.

But, for the third time, Trump is skipping a GOP primary debate. So DeSantis will share the main debate stage with Nikki Haley, Chris Christie, Senator Tim Scott, and Vivek Ramaswamy, all five likely to have to weigh in on some of the red flags that emerged after the GOP didn't meet expectations during last night's elections.

Let's discuss with former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent and former special assistant to President Biden, Michael LaRosa.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for being with us.

Charlie, first to you.

Top Senate Republicans have described last night as a complete failure. Is that a fair assessment?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, Republicans got wiped out just about everywhere. And I don't know what part of the abortion issue Republicans haven't figured out yet.

The American public doesn't want bans. And I say this as the last member of the House Republican Conference to vote against defunding Planned Parenthood and voting against the 20-week abortion ban. I have told these members for years they're on the wrong side of public opinion.

Post-Dobbs, they're finding out there are real consequences. Just look what happened in Ohio last night. By, what, 13 points, Issue 1 passed, not even close. Glenn Youngkin tried to national -- well, he tried to make this an issue by supporting a 15-week abortion ban. People didn't want to talk about abortion bans. That's what they did. And they got wiped out in Virginia.

SANCHEZ: Notably, he didn't want to call it a ban. He tried to sort of reframe it by calling it a 15-week limit, believing that Republicans could go on the offensive on this issue and win.

He seemed to have been proven wrong.

MICHAEL LAROSA, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yes.

I'm not sure why they think that they will be the exception to sort of the rule that we have seen going -- the trends that we have seen going forward -- or -- I'm sorry -- in the past, with Montana, Kentucky.

SANCHEZ: Kansas, yes.

LAROSA: Kansas.

So that's sort of like my question, is, how are how are they thinking politically about this in Ohio, Virginia? Why did they think this is necessarily a good move? I was telling Kasie Hunt here on this network on Monday that, really, the voting behavior and voting patterns, especially over the last three cycles, are really more indicative of outcomes than sort of polling.

And I think that is exactly what happened in Ohio and Virginia. And I don't understand what the Republicans were expecting.

DENT: But based on my own polling when I was a member, about a third of Republicans consider the -- support legal abortion under at least most circumstances.

SANCHEZ: Sure.

DENT: It's about a third.

So when you're dealing with Democrats who are solidly pro-choice, and a lot of independents in the same boat, Republicans are just in a very small minority, and particularly as some states pass these six-week bans with little or no exceptions. I don't think they realize how out of step they are.

And this may be a bigger issue than Donald Trump for them in the next election.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

LAROSA: It sort of reminds me a little bit of a Obamacare back in 2012. It's really hard to take away a right or a benefit. People usually don't like their rights taken away.

SANCHEZ: The rhetoric may perform well among the base, but when it comes to a general electorate, in the case of Obamacare, it didn't really pan out.

LAROSA: No, they now have to face the political consequences for decades of advocacy.

SANCHEZ: So, Michael, I want to ask you about the push and pull between the Democratic template and how successful it was last night...

LAROSA: Yes.

SANCHEZ: ... in contrast to the polling we have seen for President Biden. His polling numbers have been relatively lackluster, but some have argued that folks like us perhaps underestimate him.

Do you think...

LAROSA: I haven't heard that before.

SANCHEZ: Do you think it's sort of an underestimation of President Biden, or is it that he's potentially holding the party back from bigger success?

LAROSA: Well, it took the Supreme Court for Democratic voters to really, really get motivated, and, again, not by polling.

We have seen it in special elections all over the place. We have seen it. We saw it in the midterms, right? So abortion, we know, is a critical motivating tool. Kentucky, now, Governor Beshear has been an incredible governor. He's been through hell basically in his first term with tornadoes, flooding, school shootings.

SANCHEZ: Yes, shooting.

LAROSA: He's been an excellent source of comfort for that state. He's also like running against a Casey in Pennsylvania, right? He's a household name. His father was elected twice. He was elected prior to Joe Biden.

I'm not sure how much Joe Biden had to do with Governor Beshear's victory. But I do know that what Governor Beshear did is a template for Democrats. And that is to focus on emotional issues, like a very gutsy, well-produced TV ad...

[13:15:02]

SANCHEZ: Abortion ad, yes.

LAROSA: ... TV ad that he led with which was controversial, especially in his state.

But he was gutsy. He took a chance, took a risk, and it was smart.

SANCHEZ: Charlie, I want to zero in on the numbers with you, because, in the 2020 cycle, President -- former President Trump led Joe Biden in zero head-to-head polls in that cycle. So far this cycle, he's led in 14 polls thus far.

Tying it back to tonight's Republican debate, that -- doesn't that make it harder for those other Republicans on that stage to make the case that they're the candidate to beat Joe Biden?

DENT: Yes, it does. But I think the number I would be focusing on if I were those Republican candidates is that two-thirds of the American public don't want Joe Biden or Donald Trump.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

DENT: They think one is too old, Biden, and one is too crazy, Trump.

And based on the recent polling, crazy was beating was beating old. But is this is a year out. So I don't like to ascribe too much to these polls a year out. But these candidates running against Trump have to tear the bark off of him, explain why he is unfit. They have not done that, other than Chris Christie.

They have always been running for second place or running for a spot on -- in the Trump White House as a vice president or some other position. But they're not -- they don't seem like they're serious about winning. And they have to make the argument that Trump has brought nothing but defeat to the Republican Party since he was elected in 2016, that he has made losing great again.

And these are the things that I think Republicans need to focus on. I have run many times if I was always out in front. They're always attacking me. Well, that's what they should do. And that's what they need to do to Trump. They need to tear him down.

SANCHEZ: Michael.

LAROSA: And Democrats are desperately looking for inspiration from the president to do the same. They're looking for him to tear the bark off of Donald Trump and the Republicans, the people like Jim Comer and the other guy in Judiciary, Jim Jordan, who are constantly going after and -- going after him, attacking his family, attacking his reputation.

And the key number that I always like to look at is not so much the head-to-heads, but the personal favorite abilities and unfavorables. It's very hard to pull the lever or vote for somebody who you just don't like personally. And that was the case.

And if you look at the Senate seats in Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, it didn't matter how close to the race was head to head. Democratic candidates consistently outpolled the Republicans and Joe Biden on favorability.

Now, according to your poll, that is where the president needs to do some work and needs to improve on his image and his reputation that has been severely dented, and I think they need to start -- I think -- I echo a lot of people, cable news personalities...

SANCHEZ: Sure.

LAROSA: ... and Democrats who would like to see him start throwing a punch and...

SANCHEZ: More aggressive approach.

LAROSA: A more aggressive approach.

I mean, it did not -- the swift boating of John Kerry is something that should not be forgotten or the e-mails of Hillary Clinton or Michael Dukakis. Like, you have to respond in a 21st century media environment. You have to.

SANCHEZ: Michael LaRosa, Charlie Dent, we got to leave the conversation there, two fellows with very high favorability ratings on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(LAUGHTER)

SANCHEZ: Thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

LAROSA: Thanks, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Still to come: Secretary of State Antony Blinken says it is clear that Israel cannot occupy Gaza at the end of this war, but there may be a need for a transition period. We have more on the implications, what that could mean. We will take you live to Israel in just a moment.

And back in the United States, Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib is censured over controversial comments she made about Israel, a move that has bitterly divided some members of her own party.

And, later, the sun may be setting on panda diplomacy, two giant pandas flying out of Washington, headed back home to China this hour, leaving only a handful left in the United States.

We will explain why China says they want their bears back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:22:55] SANCHEZ: "Nothing is left." That's how some Palestinians are

describing Gaza City just one month since Israel's war on Hamas began.

Thousands are now arriving in the southern part of the enclave after fleeing the north through an evacuation corridor set up by the Israeli military. Right now, doctors in Gaza say they are running out of medical supplies. And one hospital says it's being forced to scale back on most of its operations because it's running out of fuel.

Today, Secretary of State Antony Blinken reiterated U.S. objections to an immediate cease-fire in Gaza, though he did seem to respond to Prime Minister Benjamin's remarks about Israel having overall security responsibility for an indefinite period in Gaza once the conflict ends.

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: One, Gaza cannot be can continue to be run by Hamas. It's also clear that Israel cannot occupy Gaza.

Now, the reality is that there may be a need for some transition period at the end of the conflict, but it is imperative that the Palestinian people be central to governance in Gaza and in the West Bank as well and that, again, we don't see a reoccupation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Let's take you now live to Israel with CNN's Jeremy Diamond, who's in Tel Aviv for us.

So, Jeremy, bring us up to speed. What's the latest?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, so the humanitarian situation in Gaza clearly continues to deteriorate.

Beyond simply the stunning number of casualties in Gaza, with the Palestinian Ministry of Health, which is controlled by Hamas, now putting that figure at over 10,500 people who have died in this month of war. We are also seeing the impact on the living inside of Gaza, medical supplies, doctors running out of medical supplies at key locations, al-Quds Hospital in Gaza City now scaling back most of its operations to try and simply maintain minimal services amid shortages of fuel.

[13:25:00]

Israel is still refusing to allow fuel into Gaza, claiming that Hamas would take advantage and use that fuel for its military purposes. The Palestinian Red Crescent Society, for its part, says that a humanitarian aid convoy was struck by the Israeli air force, Israeli Defense Forces yet to confirm that.

But, amid all of that, amid that picture of despair and desperation inside of Gaza, we are now seeing the gathering of foreign ministers for the G7 are now calling for a humanitarian pause to support the delivery of humanitarian aid, to allow for civilians to escape, and also for these negotiations for the release of hostages to go forward.

But they are stopping short, as the U.S. secretary of state did, of calling for a cease-fire in general. Now, it appears that that's similar to the position of the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who has ruled out a cease-fire, but has said that perhaps tactical little pauses, as he called them, could potentially be humanitarian pauses, that he would be open to that.

Now, amid all of this, Israel is trying to get civilians out from the north of Gaza to the south. They have established a humanitarian corridor, and we have seen several thousand Palestinians appear to take advantage of that.

But amid all of this, Israel is showing no slowing down in its ground offensive. Its military now says that it is operating in the heart of Gaza City, and it will continue until it achieves its objective of destroying Hamas -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: A small, but significant shift in the rhetoric there from Netanyahu.

Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv for us, thanks so much -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Boris, joining us now to discuss is Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado.

Thanks for coming on, Congressman.

So, you have Secretary of State Blinken emphasizing again today that Israel cannot occupy Gaza, in response to Netanyahu saying Israel will have security responsibility in Gaza for a -- quote -- "indefinite period" after this war ends.

Does this tell you that the U.S. and Israel are at odds in messaging?

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Well, Pam, Secretary Blinken is absolutely right. The situation in Gaza is untenable. It is a humanitarian crisis, and it must change course quickly. Otherwise, we're going to continue to see civilian casualties amount.

But he's also right in that there's no going back here. We can't go back in time to before October 7. That's not tenable. Hamas is a brutal terrorist organization and cannot be allowed to continue. It has to be dismantled by Israel.

But we also know that there's no going back to before 2005, the last time Israeli troops occupied Gaza in a significant way. That is not tenable. That did not work. It did not work for decades. And there's no reason to believe that would work going forward here.

So we need a third path. I continue to believe that's going to be engaging with the regional powers, the Arab nations to come to the table and establish security and put us back on a pathway to a viable Palestinian state and a secure Israel.

BROWN: But, I mean, realistically, how does that happen, right? I mean, who actually wants that responsibility? Who has the support to do it?

Like, in theory, I see what you're saying, but, in reality, practically, do you think that that would actually happen?

CROW: Well, what I do know is that the events of the next couple of weeks are going to determine the viability of that path.

Making sure that we make the protection of civilians and the reduction of civilian casualties and civilian harm in Gaza and in the West Bank a priority will help create the conditions for those Arab nations to engage. They have a shared history. They have solidarity with the Palestinian people. They have an interest in making sure that the Palestinian people have a future.

And we have to make sure that we're addressing the short-term crisis at the same time as we're addressing long-term discussions. And I know the administration is working very hard to do that.

BROWN: And I want to get to civilian deaths in just a moment, but, first, just to follow up on that, big picture here, look, Hamas has leadership all over the world. Its leadership is in Qatar, for the most part, its political branch.

This is an organization that is not just in Gaza. So how does Israel actually dismantle the organization? How do you prevent Hamas from filling up any power vacuum again after this war, given the fact that they're all over the place? They're not just in Gaza.

CROW: Yes, Pam, that point is a critical point.

The United States spent 20 years at war against terrorism. We spent $3.5 trillion, countless American -- in lives around the world to dismantle al Qaeda and ISIS. And guess what? Al Qaeda and ISIS are still alive and even growing in some places.

So the lesson of our 20-year war on terror is that you cannot, by military means, dismantle a terrorist organization, because that is an ideology. What you can do with the military is, you can create the conditions, you can contain it and you can suppress it.

But, ultimately, you have to bring to bear humanitarian aid, political solutions and diplomatic solutions to undercut the ideology of these terrorist organizations and remove all of the base of the -- of its support to end terrorism.

That is the lesson of our 20-year war on terror that, frankly, we have still yet to learn, that I think we could help Israel.