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OpenAI CEO Fired Amidst Turmoil; Microsoft Hires Altman; Premature Babies Evacuated From Decimated Hospital; Intense Clashes At Gaza Hospitals. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired November 20, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Boris Sanchez alongside Alex Marquardt. There is new hope for more than two dozen premature babies evacuated from a decimated hospital in Gaza, as Israel tries to make the case that the medical facility was a Hamas command center.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: Plus, tech madness, OpenAI, one of the leaders in artificial intelligence, now in turmoil after a chaotic 72 hours that saw its CEO fired and then very quickly hired over at Microsoft. Now hundreds of workers at OpenAI are threatening to follow him.

SANCHEZ: And happening right now, a heated courtroom showdown. Donald Trump fights against the U.S. president, and he's fighting against the U.S. president. He's fighting his gag order in the federal 2020 election subversion case. Trump says this is about the First Amendment and free speech. The special counsel says that Trump is trying to intimidate witnesses. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

We begin this hour with more fighting at Gaza's hospitals. Israel's military says its troops targeted a group of militants after they opened fire from inside the Indonesian hospital overnight. The head of the World Health Organization, says he is appalled by the attack, which killed 12 people, including some patients. That strike comes after the IDF released video of what it says is Hamas terrorist activity at the Al-Shifa hospital. Look at this video that shows what the IDF alleges are Hamas fighters rushing two hostages into that hospital after their attack on Israel back on October 7th.

MARQUARDT: Also this, the Israeli military showing video from inside a tunnel shaft on the compound of Gaza's largest hospital, Al-Shifa. Meantime, some of Gaza's most vulnerable are now out of the war zone. Today, 28 babies from Al-Shifa were taken to Egypt, where doctors say they are fighting severe infections.

SANCHEZ: Let's take you now to Sderot Israel with CNN's Jeremy Diamond, who's been monitoring these developments. Jeremy, Israel's repeatedly claimed that Hamas is using Gaza's hospitals as sanctuaries and command centers. Do these new videos put to rest any of the counterclaims and allegations coming from Hamas?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this certainly isn't conclusive in the sense that Israel has been claiming for weeks that Hamas operates a massive command and control centre below Gaza's largest hospital, Al-Shifa hospital. But what this evidence does show is that there is indeed a tunnel on the grounds of Al-Shifa hospital. And this is perhaps the most concrete evidence that the Israelis have put forward so far to prove out their claims. You can see in this video initially shot apparently by a drone going down into this tunnel shaft.

There is a spiral staircase. That ultimately leads to a lengthy tunnel. And once you get in the tunnel in this video provided by the Israeli military, you can see the kind of curved ceiling that is very typical of the tunnels that Hamas has built underneath Gaza, dozens of miles of which exists. And then at the end of it, you get to a door, which the Israeli military says it has yet to open because it fears it may be booby trapped.

Perhaps what lies behind that door will prove out the Israeli military's claims. But as of yet, we have not seen that kind of evidence. Meanwhile, tonight, the Israeli military is facing a lot of questions and facing a lot of condemnation for a strike on the Indonesian hospital in Gaza that apparently killed 12 people, according to local health authorities who say that among the dead are patients of the hospital and at least 1 medical staffer.

The World Health Organization has condemned this attack, saying that the head of the World Health Organization saying that he is appalled by this attack. The Israeli military, for its part, says that it faced gunfire from militants from within the hospital and it says that this is a violent attack. And it is the first time in the history of this country that the Israeli military has been charged with a gunfire. The Israeli military is currently trying to find out where the gunfire is coming from. The Israeli military insists that it did not shell that hospital.

MARQUARDT: Jeremy, you and I both have been doing some reporting about the potential release of hostages being held by Hamas here in Washington. We've heard some optimism, cautious optimism with the Biden administration, saying that things appear to be farther along than they have at any previous point. What are you being told?

DIAMOND: Yeah, certainly the most optimism that we have heard, Alex, in these last few weeks of negotiations. But here in Israel, there's certainly a lot of caution being put out in the sense that, look, they recognize that they are getting very, very close to a potential deal, but until everything is agreed to, everything could still fall apart.

But nonetheless, as you mentioned, there is a draft of a potential agreement that indicates that Hamas could release 50 hostages in an initial stage, likely women and children, and that Israel would agree to a 4- to 5-day pause in the fighting. But several things still need to be ironed out, including the mechanisms of this release and exactly how long that pause in fighting would actually last and how it would be coordinated.

[14:05:00] So still some details to be ironed out. But again, whether you're listening to the Qatari prime minister who this weekend said that they are closer than ever or the deputy national security advisor, it certainly appears that things are moving forward in a positive direction.

MARQUARDT: Yeah, even if 50 hostages were released, it would only be around one fifth of the total hostages currently being held by Hamas. Jeremy Diamond, terrific reporting as always from steroid Israel. Thank you very much. Let's get straight to CNN's Eleni Giokos, who's in Cairo. So, Eleni, these neonatal babies, 28 of them from Gaza, they have now arrived in Egypt. That is a long journey from the Gaza Strip. But they are getting some of the care that they need in Egypt. What are you learning about their condition?

ELENI GIOKOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And finally, getting the care that they need in Egypt. The Egyptian health authorities have been waiting for these neonatal babies for over a week now. They had prepared resources at the border. But of course, as we've heard in terms of what is happening at Al-Shifa hospital and just how dangerous it was to leave the hospital, they were unable to evacuate. Initially, there were 36 babies that the Egyptians were expecting.

Doctors in Al-Shifa say 5 of those babies died. I want to describe some of the conditions they experienced. Lack of oxygen. There was no food in the hospital, water. One mother that was with her baby in the hospital saying that they had run out of milk. And we saw the images of the babies being carried by hand, moved from the neonatal ward inside of Al-Shifa into another section of the hospital and being put just on a bed. And they were using hot water bottles to keep them warm.

Talking about very dangerous conditions for very vulnerable patients. Eventually, a safe corridor was created, moved to the Emirati hospital in Rafah. They were stabilized. Doctors said they were very stressed. Various tests were run on them. And medical interventions were given yesterday and today, finally moving through that Rafah border where they were met with ambulances and then taken to hospitals in Egypt. What we're hearing from our sources here is that the very severe cases will be flown to Cairo.

We understand that the babies are very underweight. The WHO says that 11 of those cases are critical. They are all going through severe infections. And this is because they weren't given the proper care in Al-Shifa. Now, when we say 28 babies, we're talking only about 4 parents that accompanied those babies and 6 nurses. So, the question now becomes, where are their parents? Where are their relatives? International organizations will be digging into that to try and reunite the kids. But people are just fearing the worst at this point because we know what has been happening in northern Gaza.

And it was just impossible to move these patients elsewhere. We also know there are a lot of other injured Palestinians in al-Shifa right now. And arrangements are being made to try and move those patients. But in the meantime, here in Egypt, they're taking in as many injured Palestinians as they possibly can. They say they can accommodate more. But priority now is all about these babies, to get them stabilized and give them the care they need.

SANCHEZ: I'm glad they're on that path. Eleni Giokos, thank you so much for the report.

MARQUARDT: We're joined now by Ophir Falk, who is a foreign policy advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Ofer, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. There was this meeting today between the prime minister and families of some of the hostages being held by Hamas in Gaza. And one person who met with Netanyahu, his daughter's being held by Hamas, said, we have very concrete questions that we expect them to answer.

Every deal, or any stage in this path, doesn't excuse anyone from their responsibility to return all of the hostages home. A lot of anger, as you can hear, being directed at the prime minister for his handling of the hostage crisis. Do you believe that we are close to seeing at least some of those hostages released?

OPHIR FALK, FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER TO ISRAELI PM NETANYAHU: Thank you, Alex. Thank you for having me. Well, obviously, I can't get into details of the negotiations. What I can say, -- and actually, the meeting is being carried out right now, with the families. The prime minister is meeting the families right now. I can't get into details about negotiations. What I can say is that Prime Minister Netanyahu's war cabinet gave 2 clear missions to the IDF. One was to destroy Hamas, and the other was to free the hostages. Those 2 missions are not mutually exclusive. They actually complement one another. And the more pressure that the IDF has put on Hamas, the closer we are getting to a deal. That's the closer we'll get to a deal. That's the closer we'll get to a deal. The more pressure the IDF puts on Hamas.

[14:10:09]

MARQUARDT: We understand, and we are reporting

(CROSSTALK)

FALK: And I think that --

MARQAURDT: Sorry, go ahead, Ophir.

FALK: And I'm saying I think what we should clearly say is and anybody who is candidly and genuinely concerned about civilian lives should call for the immediate and unconditional release of all the hostages. There are almost 240 civilians being held hostage for over 40 days, including babies, including a 10-month-old baby. The world should be crying out, free the hostages. They should be doing that 24-7.

MARQUARDT: I understand that you don't want to talk about the specifics. We have reported some of them. We believe, we understand that if there were to be a release of around 50 of the hostages, that there would be a 4- to 5-day pause in the fighting. But on the other side, do you believe that Palestinians in Israeli countries, women in custody, women and children, civilians, would also be released as part of a deal? Is that one of Hamas's demands, as you understand it? FALK: Well, clearly, Alex, as I said, I can't get into any details. What I can tell you is that the only thing that has facilitated a deal or to get us any closer to a deal is the immense pressure that the IDF is applying on Hamas. Hamas didn't believe, few believed that Israel, that the IDF would go into Gaza. We went into Gaza. Few believed we'd go into their terror tunnels. We went into those terror tunnels. Few believed we would go into the Al - Shifa hospital where they were conducting command and control terrorist operations.

We went into the hospital, and we found an abundance of ammunition and of weapons, and we found a control center two floors down. We found terror tunnels from the parking lot adjacent to the hospital, that runs underneath the hospital. We found all this, the world sees what we're dealing with, all right? And we are going to, we're going to meet the mission. The mission will be accomplished, which is one, to destroy Hamas, and two is to free the hostages. We've already killed over 5,000 Hamas terrorists, all right?

And we're going to finish this mission. What the IDF is doing today is unprecedented in modern military history.

MARQUARDT: Right.

FALK: Unprecedented.

MARQUARDT: Right. The world has -- has not yet seen, for what it's worth, the evidence of that command centre. We understand, we've heard the IDF say that more will be coming. We've seen that tunnel. I do want to ask you about another hospital. We've spoken so much about Al Shifa hospital. There's another 1, the Indonesian hospital in Gaza. It came under attack overnight. Twelve people killed, including patients. We know that the Israeli military said that they were responding to fire coming from the hospital. But, sir, I ask you, even if Hamas militants are in and around these hospitals, how does Israel's military feel comfortable firing at the hospital, knowing that civilians could be killed?

FALK: Well, Alex, I got to tell you, any civilian casualty is a tragedy. Any civilian casualty is a tragedy. The 1,000 civilian Israeli civilians that were murdered, butchered on the 7th of October, the men, women, and children, the children that were beheaded, the babies that were burnt alive, that's a tragedy. And civilians that are burned alive, that is a tragedy. They're being killed and they're losing their lives now. It's also a tragedy.

All civilian casualties are on Hamas's hands. Now, the firing that came out of the hospital yesterday was firing of terrorists shooting at our troops. And we returned fire. That is the playbook out of the Hamas playbook that they use hospitals. You got to understand this, Alex.

MARQUARDT: Right.

FALK: They use these hospitals as command centres. They're not hospitals. They're the command centres for terrorists.

(CROSSTALK)

MARQUARDT: No, no, I understand that. But does that justify -- but there you're putting Israel on the same footing as Hamas. Does that -- does that justify Israel's military firing back into a hospital where they know that civilians are, even if Hamas is using them as human shields?

FALK: Right. So let me make this clear. Israel is in complete compliance with international law. All right. Now, the proportional response, the proportional response to the October 7th massacre is to destroy Hamas. So, the Hamas will not. Be able to attack anybody again. That is the proportional response. Anything less than that would not be proportional. Now, in the course of destroying Hamas, which is what the IDF is doing right now. We are distinguishing, we are making a clear distinction between civilians. And terrorists. Now, the Hamas purposely target our civilians and hide behind their civilians.

They burnt our babies alive. And they are hiding. Behind their babies. All right. We are in complete compliance with international law. Both proportionality, distinction. And there is a clear military necessity to destroy Hamas. That is exactly what we're doing. Not only for our good. Israel is on the front-line ramp for civilization. But if we, God forbid, lose, the West is next.

[14:15:09]

(CROSSTALK)

MARQUARDT: Let me just interrupt. If you're talking about proportionality and proportional response, no one doubts the horrors of the more than 1000 -- 1,200, we understand, Israelis who were killed on October 7th. But now the death toll in Gaza is over 12,000. Around half of them, I believe, are children. Thousands of children who you just mentioned have been killed. So how is that a proportional response?

FALK: Right. So actually, I don't know if those numbers are right. I would take them with a grain of salt if they're coming from the Hamas Ministry of Health. But even one child is a tragedy. Even one civilian is a tragedy. They are all on Hamas' hands. All of them are on Hamas' hands. We have been urging civilians to get out of harm's way. Thankfully, we've been able to get over a million, 1.1 million civilians out from northern Gaza to the southwest of Gaza, all right, to a safer zone, while the Hamas is trying to hold them back, all right?

Now, this Hamas-ISIS organization, they're actually worse than ISIS, all right? I'm not sure --

(CROSSTALK)

MARQUARDT: They would argue -- they would argue they've been displaced by the fighting. They've been told by Israel to move. I think it's around 1.7 million people. FALK: I think it's 1.1 or 1.7.

MARQUARDT: Ophir, let me just ask you this.

(CORSSTALK)

FALK: We don't want to harm the civilians --

MARQUARDT: -- Even if you are arguing that you are in line with international law, and by the way, when this question is put to the Biden administration, no one in the Biden administration has said that Israel is actually following international law, even if that is legally justified, isn't there a moral question about firing on these hospitals where there are patients who cannot be moved or for whom it is very, very difficult to move them? Now we have these 12 people killed in this latest strike at the Indonesian hospital.

FALK: Right. Again, Alex, I'll say this for, I think, the third time. All civilian casualties are on Hamas's hands. But you made a good point now. Morality. This is a moment of moral clarity. Either you were with the civilized world, or you were with Hamas savages that killed, slaughtered, over 1,200 people, men, women, children, beheaded children, burnt babies alive. And the only proportional response to such a thing, not a revenge, but to prevent anything happening again from Hamas is to destroy Hamas. Now there's a clear moral question. Are you on the side of civilization on Israel's side? Or are you on the side of the Hamas savages that behead children and burn babies alive?

MARQUARDT: Yeah, I just, I think there's a question about the proportionality. And you have heard widespread condemnation from all kinds of human rights organizations, from the UN about how Israel is prosecuting this war, the World Health Organization condemning the attack on the Indonesia hospital. And the argument that you just made is essentially that Israel has no choice but to respond like this military. Even if civilians are in the way.

FALK: Actually, Alex, what I'm trying to say is that Israel and the IDF is setting a gold standard in modern military warfare. There is no military on earth that is more moral than the IDF. The way that we are prosecuting this war is the most moral prosecution of war ever. We're not doing any carpet bombing or Dresden attacks or anything of that sort. We're doing it very diligently. Our troops are going in there very diligently, over 60 of our best soldiers have been killed. These are the best people on earth. Have lost their lives. These are future novel that lost their lives, alright. Prosecuting this war.

MARQUARDT: Right.

FALK: So, now the UN is

(CROSSTALK)

MARQUARDT: Well, I ws just going to say, you know, that is the ariel bombing certainly for weeks now has been dealing with has been extraordinarily intense. Thousands of Palestinian civilians have lost their lives, and there have been more than 1 million people displaced. I understand the point that you are making. There is some criticism, certainly, of the way that Israel is going about this and the lack of concern for the Palestinian civilians that are getting caught up in Israel's efforts to take out Hamas.

FALK: Well, it seems to me that Israel is, sometimes it seems to me that we're the only ones that are concerned about the Palestinian civilians. We're the only ones that would take such care and such precision targeting of terrorists throughout this campaign. And we actually are receiving a lot of support from our allies.

[14:20:00]

We appreciate the support, the bipartisan support we're getting in the United States and the United Kingdom and other allies, like countries that are supporting us. The largest demonstration rally in favor of Israel was the scene in D.C. the other day. And that warms our heart. It strengthens our soul. And we know that we are on the right side of history.

MARQUARDT: All right. Ophir Falk, I really appreciate your time. We have to leave it there. Thank you.

FALK: Thank you, Alex. Thank you.

MARQUARDT: Chaos at OpenAI, 1 of the leaders in artificial intelligence now facing an uprising after the board gives the former CEO the boot. Now he is already at Microsoft. Plus, today, Donald Trump fighting his gag order in the federal 2020 election subversion case. Trump says this is about free speech. The special counsel says Trump is trying to intimidate witnesses. What the judge is saying about all of that, next.

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[14:25:09]

SANCHEZ: It was a weekend of absolute chaos for what many are calling the most promising, one of the most promising companies of our time, OpenAI, a top player in the revolutionary field of artificial intelligence, the maker of ChatGPT, with billions of dollars in backing from Microsoft, is now in turmoil after the board fired its co-founder and CEO, Sam Altman, on Friday. Seventy- two hours later, Altman is now an employee of Microsoft, and hundreds of workers at OpenAI are threatening to follow him if the entire board doesn't resign.

The employees are outraged as details of Altman's firing remain murky. In its announcement Friday, OpenAI claimed that Altman was not sufficiently, quote, candid with the board, but they didn't delve into the specifics.

MARQUARDT: And now Microsoft, a huge partner of OpenAI, is coming out as a big winner. CEO Satya Nadella. He has already hired Altman himself and some of his co-workers, and Microsoft says it is still committed to its partnership with OpenAI, helping Microsoft's stock hit a record high just today. Remember, this is not your average corporate reshuffle. OpenAI is a powerhouse in the tech industry, pioneering tech that once was thought to be the stuff of science fiction. OpenAI's products can write novels, for example, create art, build websites, and software from just basic descriptions that you give it. Essentially, it teaches computers to be smarter and more human-like than ever before. And it can do complex tasks that normally involve teams of people, and do those tasks in just seconds. SANCHEZ: Let's dig deeper now with CNN contributor Kara Swisher. She's also the host of the podcast On with Kara Swisher, and the co-host of the Pivot podcast. Kara, this is just a mess. You've been talking to sources all weekend that were close to all of this. First, tell us where things stand right now? And then step back and give us the context of what this means for AI more broadly.

KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I stepped away from my phone for five seconds, so I don't actually know what's happening right now. But obviously, you know, the employees this morning, which I reported had gotten together and written a letter saying the board was incompetent, and they were going to leave and work for Microsoft if they didn't step down and bring in a new board and bring back Sam, and also a guy named Greg Brockman who left with Sam after he was fired. And so, I don't know where it stands. Microsoft's now going to create this new division.

It certainly has an investment in open AI, but it doesn't have to give it all its money if it doesn't keep up commitments. And it's really hard if, you know, 500, 600 hundred people of a 750 person staff leave a company to keep its commitments. So, it's in a crisis and this board has to step down. I don't think it has any other choice.

MARQUARDT: Would that change anything, Kara, if the board stepped down? Is there any way to reverse course? Would Altman ever come back to open AI or has the die been cast? He's over at Microsoft now.

It's a lot of -- this is like a multiplayer game. I don't know what's going to happen. Of course, he could come back, and Microsoft could get a board seat and control. It could change the governance structure. And then Sam Altman would be fully in charge of it. But by open AI, it could just let it go and have Altman come there and give the billion. They're going to give open AI to Sam Altman to do whatever they want to do with Microsoft.

Certainly a victory for Satya Nadella to handle this because its stock got killed on Friday. And now, of course, it rose pretty quickly. And he managed to finesse a really bad situation by a board that I have called, you know, incompetent. I agree with its employees of open AI and does need to step aside in how they handle this.

They might have had disagreements, but this is not how to run one of the most important companies of the AI age, at least.

SANCHEZ: Well, let's zero in on those disagreements, Kara, because the new the CEO of open AI, the third in 3 days, he's calling for an investigation into Altman's firing. What ultimately preceded his firing? What was that disagreement? Do we know? SWISHER: I do not. I have tried to get that out of them. And that's one of the issues, the lack of transparency. They kind of said that he was a liar, but then didn't say what he lied about and they wouldn't be open about it. And then one of the people who led the firing has now recanted and said that he supports Sam Altman. He signed that letter. Which was weird. The chief scientist, he's a well-regarded technologist, and he was right in the middle of it. And then suddenly he wrote an I'm sorry on X this morning.

So, I don't know. I guess, you know, I was joking. It's like the Taylor Swift song. Hi, it's me. I'm the problem. It's me. That kind of thing. So, I don't know what's going to happen to this board. There's now 3 people left and we'll see what they do. And I think if they don't step down and you can't operate a company without employees. And I suspect this morning it was 505 of them. I suspect it's very close to the whole company leaving.

SANCHEZ: Potentially huge implications

(CORSSTALK)

MARQUARDT: Massive.

SANCHEZ: -- for one of the front runners leading in this revolutionary new technology.