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New, Grave Warning Of What A 2nd Trump Presidency Would Mean; IDF Expands Ground Operations To All Of Gaza; U.S. Destroyer Shoots Down Drones Over Red Sea. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired December 04, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: New reporting that the Israeli military has ground troops now operating in Southern Gaza.

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: New report sheds light on the stress air traffic controllers are facing and the huge shortages of staff, the serious dangers it's posing to air travel. We're following these major stories and more. I'm Sara Sidner with Kate Bolduan and John Berman. This is CNN News Central.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: The alarm bells are going off this morning in a new way. New urgency in the chorus of concern now for what a second Trump presidency could would mean, including for more and more members of the Republican Party about the Republican front runner. Former Reagan official, Robert Kagan, calls this a Trump's second term, a quote, clear path to dictatorship in the United States. And former speechwriter for George W. Bush, David Frum, he put it this way, instantly would plunge the country into his -- into a constitutional crisis.

Liz Cheney, former Republican member of Congress said just this morning that if Trump wins, he'll never leave. So what's Donald Trump's response to all of this? It's not me, it's President Biden that democracy should fear. Let's get over to CNN's Kristen Holmes, once again. Kristen, hearing from Liz Cheney this morning saying that if you vote for Trump, it could be the last election you ever get to vote in. These -- what is behind this urgency we're now hearing from more and more Republicans?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, if you talk to Republicans on the campaign trail as I do, it does seem more and more likely that Donald Trump is going to be the Republican nominee. And so what you are seeing is these Republicans who do not support former President Trump coming out and talking about what a Trump 2025 agenda or a second term would look like.

And that really has been Joe Biden's biggest argument against another Trump term. He has said that if Trump was to be reelected, that it would be a threat to democracy. He essentially, just to remind our viewers, is facing charges for trying to overturn the 2020 election, one of our democratic institutions. He has also questioned the legitimacy of all of our elections, even at one point called for the termination of the Constitution.

But now he is saying that it is actually Joe Biden, that is a threat to the country. And he's using an argument that he's used before, saying that the four indictments that he has been currently charged with are all because Joe Biden is using his position as president to weaponize the Justice Department and take it out on his political opponent being Donald Trump. Listen to what he said this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Joe Biden is the destroyer of American democracy. And it's him and his people. So if Joe Biden wants to make this race a question of which candidate will defend our democracy and protect our freedoms, and I say to Crooked Joe, and he is crooked, the most corrupt president we've ever had, we will win that fight and we're going to win it very big.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And Kate, one thing to point out here is that Donald Trump himself has said out loud that if he was reelected, he would weaponize the Justice Department to use it against his enemies. In fact, he actually has said that he would put the entire Justice Department underneath presidential control, effectively making the executive branch more powerful and giving it unprecedented levels of power.

Now, the other thing I want to talk about is what Donald Trump outlined for his second term agenda, should he be reelected. And that was about health care. Now, I know this is a big pivot here. But it is critically important towards a general election, should he be the nominee, he has continued to attack Obamacare. This is something that is actually giving Democrats fresh ammunition as they go into this potential general election rematch between Trump and Biden. They like the Affordable Care Act. And actually most of America, if you look at the polling likes the Affordable Care Act.

And it also has accelerated plans for Biden to start campaigning on what he would do in a second term when it comes to health care. We have some of that reporting here from our colleagues, Arlette Saenz over at the White House, but preparing health care measures that he would aim to pass in the second term would include expanding Medicare, drug price cuts, making enhanced federal premium subsidies permanent and expanding Medicaid.

Clearly here, they want to be running on health care. Again, it is a favorable program here in the United States. It is not something that they want to run away from. Republicans on the other hand, they don't want to touch that with a 10 foot pole.

BOLDUAN: I think that's a perfect description of it. Avoid, avoid, run and hide. It's good to see you, Kristen. Thank you. John?

BERMAN: All right with me now Laura Barron-Lopez, White House correspondent for PBS NewsHour and Astead Herndon, national political reporter for The New York Times both CNN political analyst. Astead, there is this drumbeat of a Trump second term would be a threat to democracy that we're hearing really I'd say it's getting louder over the last week. You get this opinion piece in The Washington Post, in the Atlantic, in a news piece and the New York Times was just flat out looks at what the policies would be. This is in your paper. And today, they say more than anything else, Mr. Trump's vowed to use the Justice Department to wreak vengeance against his adversaries is a naked challenge to democratic values.

[11:05:20]

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think there is a growing realization because people are taking Trump, his word seriously over the course of this year. I think there's been a growing realization that this is the person likely to be the Republican nominee. But this is not the same candidate, I think from 2016 and 2020. This is someone who has escalated that sense of rhetoric and is now promising policies to really put these things into action.

My colleagues who have been focusing on Trump 2025 really lay out three areas where he would really shift in comparison to what the Trump we knew as presidency, that goes to kind of weaponizing the Justice Department kind of as we heard that those sort of drain the swamp, fill the bureaucratic jobs, with people who are more supportive of Trump, but it also goes to expanding military powers for immigration, and most importantly, just the general expansion of executive power.

This is a president who's really pushing to really unify power in the executive branch and really go after kind of checks and balances that have grounded American democracy for a long time. So although it kind of feels like a stale, a presidential race that might feature Biden versus Trump again, I think that's a mistake. This is a different Donald Trump. This is a radicalized Donald Trump.

BERMAN: And Laura, to that effect, to what extent do you think voters are focused on who he is versus what Donald Trump would do as President?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think that the Republican base is very much focused on who he is, but also what he would do, which is that Trump has made it very clear since the beginning of this campaign when he launched his reelection bid, that he -- this was all about retribution. This was all about him getting revenge on his perceived political enemies.

I do think that voters are paying attention to that. They were paying attention to that also in 2022, because when I was out in states, like Michigan and Georgia, a number of voters, some swing voters, Democratic voters said that they were very worried about what they were hearing in terms of election lies.

And the President has continued that, essentially -- the former president has continued that essentially saying that if he were to lose in 2024, that the entire system will have been rigged. The only way it isn't rigged as if he were to win again. So I think that despite the fact that, yes, the economy is going to be important. Yes, health care may be important. But this is something that is going to be a front and center for a number of voters in 2024.

BERMAN: Kate mentioned that Liz Cheney was on The Today Show today. Liz Cheney has got a new book out and of course, you know, stood up against the former president. This is what Congresswoman Cheney, former Congresswoman Cheney said about what would happen if Trump is elected again. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Do you believe if Donald Trump were elected next year, that he would try to stay in office beyond a second term that he would never leave office?

LIZ CHENEY (R-WY), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: There's no question.

GUTHRIE: Do you think he would try to stay in power forever?

CHENEY: Absolutely. I mean, he's already done it once. You cannot count on a House of Representatives led by somebody like Mike Johnson to stop this president. You can't count on the Senate of Josh Hawleys and Mike Lees to stop Donald Trump.

GUTHRIE: I was going to ask you about --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Surely Astead, this will be a focus of the Republican debate on Wednesday night or not?

HERNDON: I mean, you would think so. But to this point, we have not seen his kind of Republican rivals willing to kind of go at this directly. And I think it speaks to a kind of uncomfortable fact here, which is that Donald Trump has pitched this version of himself to Republican base voters, and many of them like it. And many of them see his presidency as having been stymied by Congress by checks and balances, and really look at this version of Donald Trump as someone who can, quote unquote, finish the job, but doing so of going outside of the kind of norms of legislating that I think we have seen consistently.

And so I think Congresswoman Cheney is correct to kind of call that out, because that's the evidence that we have seen from Donald Trump since day one. He's not someone who is kind of going to be deferential to democratic norms or to checks and balances. But the important thing about this Trump campaign is they've actually been very strategic in terms of infusing the Republican Party with a lot of state party officials that are supportive of his every move.

And so not only do you have kind of Donald Trump at the top of the ticket, who is pushing these policies, but you have a Republican Party, that from top to bottom is still his. And so at this point, you really can't count on that kind of internal check from the party to really push back on him. And I think that's what Congresswoman Cheney is really isolated.

BERMAN: Laura, what about a general election, what do you expect to hear from Biden? What do you think would be most effective? Is it threat to democracy or is it he will get rid of Obamacare?

BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, I think that if you ask the Biden campaign, they would say that their message on economy as well as the threat to Obamacare is something that they would prefer to talk about, but they are going to be talking about what they see as a threat to democracy that the former president poses.

Now, some of the Democrats would like the -- would like President Biden to be a bit more forceful in that area to talk about it more frequently. We've seen him give specific speeches about January 6th, about even this project 2025 that Trump and Republican allies are pushing which a set outline that has to do with installing loyalists across agencies in the government, weaponizing the DOJ and going after his political enemies, President Biden has talked about that. But he hasn't talked about that for months.

[11:10:29]

And so that's something that I think it'd be interesting to see if President Biden decides to be more direct and forceful like Liz Cheney, because of the fact that I asked him about Speaker Johnson, and whether or not he thought that he was concerned that Speaker Johnson might help President Trump or might not certify future election results. And President Biden essentially dismissed it saying that he wasn't concerned about that, that the Constitution would hold.

So it's striking that a Republican former Congress member like Cheney is saying that no, that is something that the country should be worried about.

BERMAN: Laura Barron-Lopez and Astead Herndon, thank you very much.

We did get a piece of breaking news just moments ago, which is that North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum is suspending his presidential campaign. I guess there's not much more to say than that. Sara?

SIDNER: All right, John. Israeli ground troops are now operating in southern Gaza. CNN has verified video that shows at least one Israeli tank driving just miles away from Khan Younis. Civilians there have been ordered to clear out. And this new video just into CNN from Khan Younis showing a two-month-old baby being examined by doctors, his father is saying he was injured during a strike today.

The little boy was born on the second day of the war, living his entire young life in a war zone. His father says they are from the north and evacuated to Khan Younis thinking, as they were told, it would be safe but quickly found nowhere in Gaza is safe. CNN's Ben Wedeman is in Jerusalem for us. Ben, the IDF has been talking about what its plans are, what they're going forward to do. What are you hearing about this expansion?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, basically, they're going to be focusing on the southern part of the Gaza Strip. Khan Younis is the biggest city in the south. And we've seen that over the weekend. There were a lot of strikes on villages and towns to the east and to the north of Khan Younis. Now, it's worth noting that of course, that the Israelis advised the inhabitants of Northern Gaza to move to the south, where they presumably would have been safe. But that clearly is not the case.

And of course, many of those are people who left -- who fled to the south are crammed into U.N., schools that have been converted into shelters where the sanitary conditions are very bad. We've heard for instance, from the spokesman from UNICEF who says that there are approximately 400 people to every single toilet. And that's if there is a functioning toilet.

Also overnight, we know that Deir al Balah which is in the southern part of the Gaza Strip, south of Wadi Gaza, which was sort of the dividing line over which Israel told Palestinians to go to. The last functioning bakery in Deir al Balah was destroyed overnight. In fact, we've been seeing video of local people just ransacking that bakery looking for flour, cooking oil, in fact, even wood that they can use to cook their food and to stay warm.

So I think if Israel is going to really ramp up its incursion in the south of Gaza, we're going to see despite what the U.S. administration advise the Israel's -- not the Israelis not to do which was incur huge numbers of civilian casualties. It almost seems inevitable that that's going to be the case. Sara?

SIDNER: And you just mentioned the huge humanitarian crisis there, little food, little water, and warmth. Thank you so much Ben Wedeman for all your reporting. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, a U.S. Navy destroyer forced to shoot down at least three Houthi drones in the Red Sea. And at least one commercial ship navigating the same waters was targeted with the ballistic missile. The direct condemnation against Iran now coming from U.S. Central Command.

Plus, the White House warning Congress if you don't finally approve more aid to Ukraine, you are kneecapping them in their war effort against Russia. Why the negotiations over more funding is still stalled.

[11:15:00]

And happening this hour, a special session at the U.N. to focus on the rape and sexual based violence committed by Hamas during the October 7th terror attack. Now this comes after weeks of relative silence from many international organizations and now a new investigative report detailing eyewitness accounts of these and other atrocities commit by the terror group that day. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: In the Red Sea, a U.S. Navy destroyer shot down at least three Houthi drones as it came to the rescue of three separate commercial ships under fire. Iranian-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen are claiming responsibility before the attacks and what they say are Israeli ships. CNN's Natasha Bertrand at the Pentagon with the latest on this. Natasha, what are you learning?

[11:20:08]

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, John, a really significant series of attacks yesterday in the Southern Red Sea that the USS Carney which is a U.S. destroyer that is based in the Red Sea at this moment responded to in response to several missile attacks by these Houthi rebels, targeting commercial vessels, three commercial vessels and total of four separate attacks throughout the day yesterday.

And what we're told is that the USS Carney responded to distress signals that were emitted by these ships and when they responded, they saw that some of these missiles had actually struck the vessels resulting in some minor damage. One of the missiles that was launched against these cargo ships was actually a ballistic missile. So the potential to really cause a lot of damage and casualties, but thankfully, it did not.

But in addition to all of this, the rebels, the Houthi rebels, they also launched drones that appear to be heading towards the USS Carney. And that, according to U.S. Central Command, required that the warship shoot those drones down. So clearly things really escalating in the region yesterday, and the U.S. said, U.S. Central Command said in a statement that quote, the attacks represent a direct threat to international commerce and maritime security that have jeopardized the lives of international crews representing multiple countries around the world.

And they also said really notably here that they have every reason to believe that these attacks while launched by the Houthis in Yemen, are fully enabled by Iran. Now, the Central Command statement went on to say that the U.S. is considering all of his options for response here. Importantly, the U.S. has responded to attacks by Iran backed groups in the past. But clearly that has not deterred these groups from continuing to carry out these strikes on U.S. and allied and coalition partners in the region to date. John?

BERMAN: It's a lot of dangerous activity in the Red Sea. All right, Natasha, keep us posted. Thank you. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Let's talk more about this. Joining us right now, CNN anchor and senior global affairs analyst, Bianna Golodryga and CNN military analyst, former NATO supreme allied commander, General Wesley Clark. General, just on what Natasha and John Berman were talking about, this statement coming from Central Command, they're considering all options, pointing the finger right at Iran. What -- does this mean U.S. deterrence, because that was the point of putting Navy warships in the Red Sea that it's not working?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think it means that U.S. deterrence needs to be stepped up. Iran knows that we the United States don't want and we made it very clear, we don't want a widened conflict in the region. So taking advantage of this by having their proxies do various things that are provocative knowing that the United States are believing that the United States won't respond directly against Iran.

I think we're going to have to look at some military options that do respond directly against those elements in Iran, who are supporting and enabling these attacks.

BOLDUAN: And now with the news that the Israeli military operation is going to be -- is moving in to southern Gaza. We know that the United States has been pushing Israel, general, to do more to limit civilian casualties in Gaza while Israel is going after Hamas. And I want to play what Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said this weekend. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, DEFENSE SECRETARY: You see this kind of a fight. The center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Some Republicans like Lindsey Graham, they disagree and critical of the Secretary's assessment right there, how to avoid that strategic defeat?

CLARK: Well, I think Secretary Austin is exactly right, on doctrinal grounds. The problem in Hamas and in Gaza is that the civilian populace has either been hostile or indifferent, or overtly hostile to Israel, so the horses out of the barn on this, honestly. I mean, it would be great if this fan population would say, look, we're against Hamas, we had all this destruction.

And really, it's not Israel's fault. But unfortunately, this is a wartime situation. This is really no different than when the United States had to attack Japan in World War II, British and American bombers flying over Nazi Germany, a lot of innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the war effort were killed in consequence of this.

And unfortunately, I don't know that there's that much more that the Israelis can do to avoid harming this civilian populace in Gaza and still accomplish the military objective. And so they're going to go after the military objective now as hard as they can and they're going to do whatever they can do.

[11:25:11]

And it's important for the United States to pick the posture it's taking. I understand that politically and strategically. But the fact of the matter is on the ground, the Israeli military is going to do what it has to do to eliminate Hamas or do the best they can to eliminate Hamas. It's going to be a tough fight, it's going to escalate. There's going to be more casualties. And it's just unfortunate.

But here's the thing, the blame needs to be placed on Hamas. All they have to do is surrender, unconditional Surrender, it'll stop vividly. That's where the blame rests.

BOLDUAN: At the same time, Bianna, today, the U.N. is holding a special session on the rape and sexually-based violence that -- by Hamas during the October 7th attack. And this really comes after weeks of I'll call it a strange silence from the U.N., from other international organizations on the horrific atrocities that have been now detailed, more and more. You've been pushing really hard on this to get some answers. What is going on here?

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I wish I knew exactly what was going on. I think you're being generous by describing this as a strange silence because Israel and Israeli investigators have been accumulating a lot of evidence about the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th against Israeli women.

Now, this has been a very difficult investigation, because sadly, most of these victims did not survive. But as any issue related to rape, especially rape involving war, it is very, very difficult to get women to come forward, those that even do survive. But to have women's organizations whose sole purpose is to speak out against these types of acts sit quietly, while they're quick to condemn others involved in this war for actions, specifically, what's happening in Gaza.

And this was started by our Jake Tapper and his really in depth important piece on the atrocities committed against women on October 7th, and I followed up by interviewing the deputy director of U.N. Women to ask --

BOLDUAN: I think we have that sound. And this is -- and I have to say, I don't think it does justice, because you really tried to get -- you give ample opportunity to get a straight answer and you did not. Can we play these guys?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Is there a reason, though, Sarah, that you can't specifically call out Hamas and the mounting evidence now over seven weeks that Israeli investigators have collected that we've shown our viewers about the atrocities they committed specifically on October 7th.

SARAH HENDRIKS, DEPUTY U.N. WOMEN EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: Indeed, UN Women always supports impartial independent investigations into any serious allegations of gender based or sexual violence. And within the U.N. family, these investigations are led by the Office of the High Commissioner of Human Rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Now this was about a seven and a half minute interview that we conducted and never once did you hear we condemn Hamas, even for the allegations, much less all of the mounting evidence. Since then, U.N. Women I think because of pressure came out with a statement, condemning Hamas for the allegations of these atrocities and said they would look further into it.

But why this is so important is because it delegitimizes not only Israeli women, but women around the world who are victims to rape, especially in terms of a weapon of war. And every expert told me that all of the evidence suggests that this was premeditated. These weren't one offs by hideous terrorist. This was part of the war plan itself, which makes this a crime against humanity.

And let's not forget there are still female hostages being held within Gaza, which is why this truce was broken because Hamas did not live up to its deal that it would release them. And a lot of concern is about what's happened to these women and why they won't release them, what horror stories will they have to tell.

BOLDUAN: And it's not like the horror stories have not been told, though, it's of course, this can be a slow and hard thing to investigate. The Sunday Times based out of the U.K. they've conducted I think, they gathered 1,500 testimonies from people, many of them eyewitnesses to these atrocities, many of them witnessing rape and sexual based violence only to then see those women then murdered after what they were -- what they suffered through. It's not -- it's it -- it is out there. The silence is terrifying.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, even among our U.S. elected officials here in Washington as well.

BOLDUAN: Bianna, thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Sure.

BOLDUAN: General Clark, thank you so much. Sara? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)