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Trump Sidesteps Question On Possible Abuse Of Power If Reelected; 6 Killed, 3 Wounded In Texas Shooting Spree; Senate GOP To Block Ukraine Funding After Tense Briefing. Aired 9-9:30a ET
Aired December 06, 2023 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[09:00:47]
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: A dictator on day one, but only day one. Donald Trump in his own words on what a second Trump presidency will look like.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A CNN Exclusive. Guess who was on the witness list when Donald Trump goes on trial in Georgia? Former Vice President Mike Pence on a collision course for an historic courtroom standoff
SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: And a rampage across two cities leaves six people dead in Texas the grisly killings at five different crime scenes. I'm Sara Sidner with John Berman and Kate Bolduan. This is "CNN News Central."
BOLDUAN: A dictator for a day. Donald Trump in Iowa last night offered ample offered ample opportunity by a friendly host and audience to make clear he won't lean into his authoritarian tendencies if he wins the election and opportunity that Trump took and did this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Do you in any way have any plans whatsoever if reelected president to abuse power, to break the law, to use the government to go after people?
DONALD TRUMP (R) FMR PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: You mean like they're using right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Also, in all of that asked about being a dictator, we will get to more of that in a moment. Politico's take on it all a presidential front runner, idly musing about being a dictator, even for a day is not normal stuff. Also, not normal is this, a former vice president possibly testifying against his former boss who is facing multiple indictments for trying to steal an election that he walked lost, while he's currently running for president again.
All of that to say prosecutors in Georgia have now put Mike Pence on their witness list in the state's 2020 elections subversion case. One has to wonder if any or all of this will come up in the presidential debate tonight. Four Republican presidential candidates taking the stage in another face off. Again, not on the list will be of course the front runner Donald Trump's skipping it again while he remains 50 plus points ahead in the polls for the Republican nomination.
CNN's Alayna Treene leads us off. Alayna, take us to last night to understand where we are today. What happened in this interview?
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Yes, well, I think you showed some of that clip earlier, Kate where Sean Hannity tried a few times to get Donald Trump to deny that if he were elected in 2024, to the White House, that he would not abuse presidential power, he would not use the government to go after his political enemies. But Donald Trump did not take the opportunity to do that. Here's more of that exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HANNITY: Under no circumstances, you are promising America tonight, you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody.
TRUMP: Except for day one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HANNITY: Except for?
TRUMP: That he's going crazy.
HANNITY: Except for day one, meaning?
TRUMP: I want to close the border. And I want to drill, drill --
HANNITY: That's not, that's --
TRUMP: He says you're not going to be a dictator. Yes, I said, no, no, no. Other than day one. We're closing the border. And we're drilling, drilling, drilling after that I'm not a dictator.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TREENE: Now to put it bluntly, Kate, I mean, it was a bit of a weird answer. I agree with Politico on that. I mean, Donald Trump has completely or completely deflected last night from answering that question. Instead, he joked about being a dictator and tried to flip the script and put it on Joe Biden arguing that Biden is the one abusing his power and pointing to the four indictments that Trump is facing.
But look, I think we need to be very clear here. Donald Trump has said publicly both on the campaign trail, but also in his interviews, that he would try to weaponize the Justice Department to go after his enemies. And I think, you know, a lot of this is coming as there's intense media scrutiny on what a Trump second term would look like. And a lot of these plans that we've reported on and other outlets have reported on our plans that the campaign doesn't deny.
[09:04:58]
Now, I do think the reason there is so much attention around what an expansive a second term could look like is not necessarily because Trump's rhetoric is increasing on this. This is really the same language that he's been using since he announced that he was going to run for election last year.
But it's because we are six weeks away to the Iowa caucuses, and Donald Trump still has a commanding lead in the polls. And that's led a lot of people, Republicans, Democrats, critics to wonder what exactly what a second Trump administration look like?
BOLDUAN: Alayna good to see you. Thank you. John?
BERMAN: All right. With me now is former Obama administration official Van Jones and David Urban, Republican strategist and former Trump campaign advisor. They are both CNN political analysts. And with me here in studio.
Van, I want to replay the initial question from Sean Hannity, just so we're all crystal clear.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Pretty, pretty simple question, brother.
BERMAN: Pretty simple question from a guy who, you know, isn't really trying to expose --
JONES: Yes.
BERMAN: -- the former president here. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Do you in any way, have any plans whatsoever, if reelected president to abuse power, to break the law, to use the government to go after people?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Do you have any plans to abuse power, break the law or go after people? And here's the thing, Van, we timed it. He didn't answer that question for five minutes, for five minutes. He off you skated, didn't give a yes or no for five minutes. And when he finally did answer, the answer was dictator on day one. What do you hear there?
JONES: Well, I mean, in some ways, it's kind of like the guy at Ellis Island. They say, do you advocate supporting overthrowing the government by force or violence? And he goes, violence, right. Is this like? This is a very easy question. It's a simple yes or no question. And there was an opportunity to set the record straight to tell people, I do not plan to do this. I plan to follow the law. I plan -- he didn't do it. There's not a single human being on Earth, that would take more than five seconds to answer a question like that the right way he could get right in five minutes. BERMAN: And David, I want to make clear, this isn't a complete vacuum when it comes to Trump himself, or the people he has surrounded himself with, including Kash Patel, who worked in the last administration. I know, you know, Kash, Patel. The New York Times noted today that an interview with Steve Bannon, Patel said, quote, we will go out and find the conspirators not just in the government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you whether it's criminally or civilly.
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That's nuts, right. It's crazy. And I can tell you firsthand that I know that the Trump campaign and the inner circle and the Trump campaign, which Kash Patel is not part of, is none too happy with those comments, right? Because they're indefensible, or they're just clearly indefensible.
And so, to, to be out there saying that there's no way you can respond to it other than say, it's just wrong. Right. I mean, what he's saying is wrong.
JONES: Well, you'll say that in the campaign, I'll say that, unfortunately, the candidate will say --
URBAN: Well, well --
JONES: -- I mean that's the problem.
URBAN: You know, and to your point about what the former President said last night with Hannity, look Hannity with kind of twisting his arm a little bit and saying, you know, say Uncle, say, Uncle Donald Trump. And Donald Trump's, you know, this Van knows this, but Trump gets pushed into a corner, he's not going to admit that he's wrong. He's not going to say that I did something wrong or said something wrong. He said, look, I'll be a dictator in so much that I am going to close the border and so much that I am going to drill. If those things are being a dictator that I'm guilty of being a dictator, that that was his answer. It was not an artful answer. He was being too cute by half.
BERMAN: That was after five minutes --
URBAN: No, no, I got it.
BERMAN: -- of not promising he wouldn't abuse power.
URBAN: He was being too cute by half. And look, as we get closer and closer, the election is going to be more scrutiny. The only person who's going to beat Donald Trump in this election is Donald Trump, not Joe Biden, not Nikki Haley, Donald Trump's the only guy that can beat himself.
BERMAN: How should voters interpret this? I mean, how seriously should they take this?
JONES: I think when somebody tells you who they are, you should believe them. This is, I think people forget a Democratic Republic. It's the most rare form of government in human history. Yes, 10,000 years of human history. Ours is the oldest, it's a couple 100 years old was that China (ph), these things fall apart all the time. The usual thing, a strong man comes on the scene, and you don't have democracy anymore. That's happening in countries around the world. It could happen here.
He's trying to be cute. He's trying to be clever. That's what his people who like him think. But if you had somebody who was in a position of power as your boss or your, your clergy member, whatever, who talked about power the way he does, you'd be very concerned, you should be concerned about America.
BERMAN: So, let's -- go ahead.
URBAN: Let me say, Salina Zito, my friend, remember, at this point, this phrase, right, which is very, very popular during the 2016 campaign, you know, Trump supporters take him seriously, but not literally, his attractor is taken literally, but not seriously. I think you're seeing more of that today.
BERMAN: Yes. But do you think that still holds after he's been in office for four years? Because Liz Cheney, by the way, Liz Cheney distinctly doesn't, the Atlantic doesn't either. People have been talking about that this week. I want to play about a little bit of Liz Cheney from last night because what she seems to be saying is we don't have the luxury she says of taking literally or seriously, we have to pay attention because it's different this time. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[09:10:16]
LIZ CHENEY (R) FMR U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: I think it's naive, and a real misreading of what we've lived through to think that we can count on the guardrails that we have in place. Donald Trump tried to seize power in 2020.
He's learned the lessons of 2020 and 2021. And so, I think anybody who says, well, don't worry, you can count on the balance of power and the institutions. That's really wishful thinking that we can't afford.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Van?
JONES: Oh, she's right. Any job you have, you're a little bit better. The second day, you are first or the second year, you are the first. The first second time, then you are the first. The first time Donald Trump got there, he didn't think he was going to win in the first place. He got a campaign team, a very small one, he didn't have a governing, you know, capacity. Now he knows how this thing works. And a lot of the marbles that people put on the stairs for him, a lot of the banana peels to put on the sidewalk for him. Those people are not going to be there. They're going to be people who actually expect to be able to deliver on somebody's company's promises. And I think people should take it very seriously. He will -- it won't just be this kind of circus type of thing. He's going to come in there with a discipline plan to doing a lot of stuff that can hurt a lot of people.
BERMAN: Who's going to stop him?
URBAN: Well, I -- listen. I think he is just, he's going to have a plan. He's going to, he's going to, he's going to take down some institutions and some things that dismantle some things that he doesn't like, and Republicans don't like. But I do think I disagree with Liz Cheney that, that our governments get a collapse if Donald Trump. I disagree with you that the breathless, you know, thick Atlantic article or the economist saying he's the greatest threat to democracy in the world in 2024. He will challenge the things that are going on Washington, people like that, so he's going to get elected people, people in America want to see change.
BERMAN: Who's going to keep him from crossing the line.
URBAN: Listen, there is a system in place right, checks and balances that there's a Senate, right? The Senate has to confirm people, right?
BERMAN: Josh Hawley?
URBAN: You need --
BERMAN: Ted Cruz?
URBAN: Yes, but John, you know this, you need 60 votes to get anything done in the U.S. Senate. Sixty votes. Sixty votes. With Trump when the Republicans controlled the House Senate and the White House, they couldn't get things done. He needed advice and consent, the Senate got to confirm people, you have active people.
JONES: Sure, like what are you talking about as for legislation for confirmation, but --
URBAN: Yes.
JONES: -- on a day-to-day basis, hour by hour basis, minute by minute basis, the President United States does a lot of stuff and that person doesn't respect the rules and has a team of people who don't. That's a very dangerous situation.
URBAN: But that's the assumption you're making. Right? That's the assumption here to make.
BERMAN: Van Jones, David Urban.
URBAN: Thanks.
BERMAN: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Sara?
SIDNER: All right. Six people have been killed in a wave of violence across two Texas cities. Police say the Rampage started Tuesday morning in San Antonio. Two people were killed at a home and what police say was a grisly crime scene. The violence continued in Austin where four more people were killed and two police officers and a bicyclist were shot and wounded. Police say all of this violence is linked to one suspect who has been arrested.
CNN's Ed Lavandera joins us now from Dallas. Give us a sense of what happened here and how this played out.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Sara. Well, this is a troubling timeline. Investigators believe that the killings have started, this killing spree started yesterday morning in the San Antonio area where a man and woman in that were found dead in their home as investigators described it as a grisly scene. And then moved to Austin around just before 11:00 a.m. at a high school in Austin, a school police officer was shot and wounded in the leg. Two hours after that a shooting was reported at another home and that is where investigators discovered the bodies of another man and woman.
And then several hours after that there was a man on a bicycle who reported being shot and wounded as well. And then after that, there was a burglary report where investigators found the suspect in the backyard exchanged gunfire with him and that led to a chase where they eventually captured this man. But inside that home, there were two other people dead.
So basically, five different shooting scenes. Six people killed, three people wounded. Two of those police officers and investigators in San Antonio said as I mentioned, that the initial shooting scene was a grisly crime scene.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAVIER SALAZAR, SHERIFF, BEXAR COUNTY TEXAS: I think it, it happened and I believe the bodies were relocated to the to where they are now. And they're wedged inside a very small room and they're up against the door so we're not able to fully make entry. But we can see that clearly, they're deceased in there but, but certainly it's, it's a pretty grisly crime scene in there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: So, after the last shooting took place there yesterday afternoon in Austin, there was a chase, investigators and police there in Austin took a man in his 30s into custody. He's now facing capital murder charges. But we're still waiting to find out more about is what is the motivation behind all of this? Is there a connection between all of these different shooting scenes and murder scenes as well? That information we still don't know at this point. Sara?
[09:15:07]
SIDNER: Is just stunning the number of people and places that he went on this killing spree. Thank you so much, Ed Lavandera with that report.
Kate?
BOLDUAN: Coming up for us. Senators in a shouting match. What happened in a closed door briefing of Cabinet officials and the U.S. Senate? We'll have more on that.
And why it now has the push to help Ukraine and Israel on the brink of collapse.
Plus, CNN exclusive reporting on who is on the witness list for Donald Trump's Georgia election interference case. It is not Taylor Swift. I will tell you that for one thing.
But new this morning Taylor Swift was just named Time's Person of the Year.
Will be back.
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[09:20:06]
BERMAN: This morning sounds of alarm from the U.S. Senate, quote, I just don't think there's any question that we are about to abandon Ukraine. That from Democratic Senator Chris Murphy, after a classified briefing on Ukraine turned into a shouting match, with more than a dozen Republicans walking out a test vote on Ukraine. It could come as soon as today.
CNN's Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill with the very latest this morning. What's the status, Lauren?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and, John, this is all stemming from the reality that a lot of Republicans and Democratic senators, they agree on the reality that more money needs to be sent to Ukraine. What they disagree about and why this briefing yesterday behind closed doors got so tense is that they do not have any agreement on how to deal with the southern border and what policy changes Republicans and Democrats could agree to live with moving forward. That issue has really vexed the overall supplemental package for moving forward.
Now, we expect a procedural vote later this afternoon on that package. But we also expect that Republicans are going to vote against it, behind closed doors yesterday in that intelligence briefing that was classified. You had senators arguing that things got so tense that they devolved into a shouting match.
Here's Majority Leader Chuck Schumer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY) MAJORITY LEADER: -- it was immediately hijacked by Leader McConnell. Then when I brought up the idea that they could do an amendment and have the ability to get something done on border, you know, they get stuck, they got stuck. They didn't like it. And even one of them started was disrespectful and started screaming at the -- one of the generals and challenging him to why he didn't go to the border.
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): People got up and walked out. Because this is a -- it's a waste of time. They just said, this isn't worth it. This is a joke. You're not serious about this, I'm going there, you know. And I don't blame them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOX: And you heard their Majority Leader Schumer alluding to the fact that he says that Republicans could have an amendment vote if they wanted on any border security policy, they want to put forward. But that would require them getting bipartisan support, because they would need 60 votes in the Senate. That of course, a very high bar to clear John and something that Republicans are arguing just is not enough. They want Democrats back at the negotiating table. They want to find a path forward that they can all agree to add that to the bill and then move that supplemental package forward.
Right now, we are a long ways from that becoming a reality. John?
BERMAN: A long ways. All right, Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill. Thank you very much.
Kate?
BOLDUAN: Joining us now for more on this is Republican Senator Pete Ricketts of Nebraska. He sits on Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
Senator, thank you so much for coming in. Why did it get so contentious in that briefing last night? What's going on here from your perspective?
SEN. PETE RICKETTS (R-NE): Well, I think one of the things, of course, these are very high-stakes negotiations. And so, there's a lot on the line here. So, I think temperatures are rising. I think we have to remain calm and cool. You know, at the end of the day, divided government, which means there has to be a negotiation here. And frankly, we've been talking about this in September, the President put it in his supplemental package. So, he brought the border in here. The Speaker has been very clear about what he needs to see with regard to the border, we've got to have some policy changes. That's what we as Republicans in the Senate want to see.
So, this negotiation just has to get on to be able to move forward on the supplemental package.
BOLDUAN: It sounds like this vote is going to fail today, as Lauren Fox is kind of laying it out. McConnell has said that, that should send a loud message to Democrats of how serious you all are about the border and having it be included as part of this negotiation. What message does it send to Ukraine, if this -- with this vote fails today? RICKETTS: Well, one of the things that I tell all of our allies that are democracies, at least as they know that democracies are messy, that it takes time. You know, as Winston Churchill said it's the worst form of government except for all the other ones. And so, this is just part of the process.
So, we've got to be able to continue to negotiate. Frankly, I don't know how Leader Schumer expects anybody to vote for the supplemental, and we haven't even seen in text (ph), but like, we're not just going to vote on something we don't know what we're voting on. That's just crazy. That's not going to fly.
But hopefully it does send the message to Democrats that we have divided government, there's going to have to be a negotiation, that this is important for everybody. There's broad agreement on support for Ukraine, Israel, Indo-Pacific, we got to get something on the border. The President put it in his package, so we just need to sit down and get the negotiation underway.
BOLDUAN: That's why this I think makes people scratch their heads. If this is -- if this kind of broadly is an area where everyone agrees to support Israel, to support Ukraine, more funding for the border. Why is it devolving into shouting matches? I mean, I look back and you've been consistent in your message on support for Ukraine in September after meeting with Ukraine's president, you, you put out a message saying, if Vladimir Putin succeeds in his brutal war in Ukraine NATO allies like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland could be next, and American lives would be at stake.
[09:25:18]
If that's the stakes here, why not take these issues that you believe all relate to U.S. national security separately, if it is so important, and such a priority, so that one doesn't get held up by the other?
RICKETTS: Actually Kate, back in September, I said the exact same thing, let's take these things up separately, and we can vote on them independently for what. But that's not the way the President has chosen has chosen to do this. He's put this he's wrapped this all up into one package. And frankly, back in September, I believe Leader Schumer was in the same place. What needs to happen here is the President needs to get on and engage directly with this negotiation, Leader Schumer needs to get on this. This is --
BOLDUAN: You think that will actually shake this up if the President gets involved, do you think that's going to increase chances you guys reach agreement?
RICKETTS: There's going to have to be an agreement on the southern border. President has made this an issue when he put in a supplemental. So, he is going to have to get involved here to make sure that the policy changes that Republican wants are part of this overall package for this to move forward. So, it is going to be up to the President to get involved and get this negotiated. BOLDUAN: Senator, your party's leader Donald Trump, he talked about and weighed in on the border crisis himself just last night. Let me play this for you. Just to remind you what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HANNITY: Under no circumstances, you are promising America tonight. You would never abuse power as retribution against anybody?
TRUMP: Except for day one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HANNITY: Except for?
TRUMP: But he's going crazy. Except the day one. I want to close the border. And I want to drill --
HANNITY: That's not -- that's, that's not --
TRUMP: -- drill, drill. No, no.
HANNITY: That's not retribution. I got --
TRUMP: I'm going to be -- I'm going to be good, you know, he keeps. I love this this guy. He says you're not going to be a dictator, are you? I said, no, no, no, other than day one. We're closing the border. And we're drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I'm not a dictator.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BOLDUAN: A dictator on day one to close the border. After that, he says he won't be a dictator. Does that concern you hearing him talk like that?
RICKETTS: Well, Donald, Donald Trump's a candidate, but I can tell you what he's reflecting is the fact that I hear at my office every day, is that people are very concerned about the southern border. Look, if you want us to get involved with how we're helping out other countries, a lot of Americans are saying you got to do our country, right first. We know that, for example, on Sunday and Monday, 10,000 people came across that border.
BOLDUAN: Yes.
RICKETTS: CBP can only process so many, so they're getting released to this country.
BOLDUAN: No, I mean --
RICKETTS: We had more people --
BOLDUAN: -- Alejandro Mayorkas was just talking with this on CNN this morning talking about how it is clearly it is an issue at the border. But hearing Donald Trump talk about being a dictator. Do you take him seriously?
RICKETTS: So, in fact, he's reflecting what Americans are concerned about, with regard to we got to close the southern border. Candidates are going to say what they want to say. But I will tell you right now, it is a real issue with the American people and especially in my state. They're concerned about the drugs coming across, they're concerned about the tariff -- people on the terrorist watchlist. We have got to do something on the southern border. It's going to involve policy changes when I was now, I've been in the for border four times. And the last time I was down there, CBP was very clear, they need policy changes, and that's what we're asking for as Republicans to get the supplemental pass.
BOLDUAN: Senator Pete Ricketts, thank you for your time.
Sara?
RICKETTS: Great. Thank you.
SIDNER: Well, Donald Trump looks ahead to 2024. Prosecutors in Georgia are still looking to hold him accountable for the chaos that followed the 2020 election. A new witness has been added to the list, the person as close to the presidency as you can get. We'll have that, coming up.
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