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Mike Pence on Witness List in Trump's Georgia Trial; Interview With Rep. Michael McCaul (R-TX); DOJ Charges Russians With War Crimes; Trump Says He Will Be Dictator Only on Day One. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired December 06, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:02:59]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: New this morning, the leading Republican candidate for president pledged that he will be a dictator on his first day in office.

Faced with questions from his pal Sean Hannity about whether he had plans to abuse, power, break the law, or use the government to go after people, after not answering for nearly five minutes, this is what Trump said:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Under no circumstances, you are promising America tonight, you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (R) AND CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Except for day one.

HANNITY: Except for?

TRUMP: Look, he's going crazy.

Except for day one.

HANNITY: Meaning?

TRUMP: I want to close the border, and I want to drill, drill, drill.

HANNITY: That's not a...

TRUMP: He says, you're not going to be a dictator are you? I said, no, no, no, other than day one. We're closing the border and we're drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I'm not a dictator, OK?

HANNITY: Well, that -- that...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: That was during a town hall last night in Iowa.

The authoritarian talk didn't stop there. Trump also reminded everyone listening of his relationships with dictators.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I tell you what, we are dealing and you are dealing -- I got to know them all, the leaders of the world. I got to know them all. And they're at the top of their game. Some are bad people. Some are decent people. They all have one thing in common. They want what's good for their country, whether it's President Xi of China or Kim Jong-un.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Will any of this come up at tonight's Republican presidential debate? We shall see.

The top four remaining Trump challengers are taking the stage once again and again, without them, Donald Trump himself.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is live in Tuscaloosa, where the debate is going to be held.

But, Jeff, Donald Trump, he's not going to be there. How big of a role do you see his town hall playing? Do you think it will come up at all?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Kate, it would be impossible to, or nearly impossible, let me give myself a caveat there, to imagine that question not coming up tonight, the fact that he said with his own words that he would be a dictator on day one.

[11:05:04]

One thing that has changed about these debates from debate to debate really has -- a central part of the question has been what has happened previously. What is new? And this certainly is a new element, but really part of a long-running story about how he would govern in a second term.

So, yes, I very much expect questions to be asked by this. And the candidates, particularly if you're named Chris Christie, are likely to try and seize upon this moment to continue to make the case to Republicans to turn a new direction.

The bigger question is, will Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, will former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley try and seize upon this as well, or will they largely continue in the mold of trying to appeal to some Trump supporters? So that is the sort of open question here.

But it's hard to imagine that Donald Trump's words will not be front and center in this debate tonight. Of course, he is not here, but he hangs over this primary race. In fact, he's driving this primary race, so I do expect a rebuttal time. We will see if the candidates, though, decide to do that.

BERMAN: So I think it's worth noting here that when he was first asked by Sean Hannity if he would abuse power or break the law, he dodged. I mean, he didn't answer. He didn't give a no for five full minutes.

And then, when he did, it was dictator for a day. And then, Jeff, I think it's also worth noting that this doesn't appear to be a bug, but a feature of the campaign and those around Donald Trump.

Kash Patel, who worked in the first Trump administration and is clearly still in the Trump orbit, has been telling Steve Bannon and others that they will go after people in the media and people who crossed Donald Trump.

He said: "Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you, whether criminally or civilly."

I mean, this is part of the Trump argument right now.

ZELENY: It's the anthem of his reelection campaign. It's the anthem of his third bid for the presidency. He's been talking about retribution. He's been talking about revenge.

None of this should be surprising at all. If you listen to what Donald Trump says, he is talking about his plans for a second term, from the Department of Justice on and on throughout the government, his plan to remake the government. And revenge is a central part of that.

So being a dictator is a central part of that. And now what many Republicans who are looking for a new direction, in fact, some of his rivals will say privately, we will see if they say publicly tonight, that they believe that this is even more dangerous in a second term, because the president essentially knows his way around the office, if you will.

He knows exactly what to levers to pull. So I do believe this will be a central part of the conversation. And talking to voters in recent days and really for the last several weeks and months, a lot of Trump supporters and voters are looking for something new because of this exactly.

Now, they're not saying they won't vote for him in the long run should he become the nominee. But this really is a chance for Republican candidates to make their case. Again, we will see if they choose to do so. But time is running out for them, 40 days before the Iowa caucuses, a week later, the New Hampshire primary.

So, this debate, the smallest stage, but the biggest moment for all of these candidates, without question.

BOLDUAN: For sure.

And it's great to see you, Jeff, live there. Thank you.

BERMAN: So, extraordinary new charges by the U.S. government against four Russian soldiers, they were announced just a short time ago. This is the first time the U.S. has used a decades-old law to prosecute war crimes, crimes committed against U.S. citizens. According to the indictment, Russian soldiers violently abducted a

U.S. citizen from his home in Ukraine, beat him, tortured him, all while taking photographs.

CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez, who was there at the announcement, is with us now.

Evan, talk to us about the historic significance of this.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, this is a very extraordinary case, certainly for the Justice Department.

As you pointed out, this is the first time that they're using this 30- year-old war crimes statute, this war crimes law, to bring charges. In this case, they're bringing charges against four members of a Russian- affiliated military.

Now, we don't know exactly whether they're Russian military or whether they're connected or whether they're the Donetsk People's Republic, which is the Russian-supported group -- sorry -- section in Eastern Ukraine that is governed by a pro-Russian government.

But we know that the -- in this case, these four people, these four members of the military, abducted an American, held him for 10 days, tortured him, threatened him, did a -- conducted a mock execution. Again, this is all happening in April of 2022 in the village of Mylove, which is in the Kherson region of Ukraine.

According to prosecutors, this all happened over a period of days. And agents from the Homeland Security Investigations and the FBI went over there, interviewed this person, and have now brought these charges.

[11:10:08]

Now, it's pretty extraordinary for them to be able to do this. Obviously, they -- we know that the FBI and HSI have been working with Ukrainian prosecutors to try to collect evidence, John, for international war crimes tribunal, but, in this case, they're actually bringing charges in the United States against these four members of the military.

We should point out that these people, these four people, are not in custody. And so it is something in the future that the U.S. hopes to do -- John.

BERMAN: Evan Perez, thank you very much for that -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: And joining us now for more on all this is Republican congressman Mike McCaul from Texas, the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

Congressman, Mr. Chairman, thanks for coming in.

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): Hey, Kate.

BOLDUAN: These charges that we just learned about from Homeland Security and the Justice Department today, they really highlight once again Russia's brutal war against Ukraine.

What does this mean when it comes to what you all are facing right now, which includes a funding fight putting U.S. support for Ukraine on the brink of collapse?

MCCAUL: Well, I think it's very significant, as a former federal prosecutor myself at Department of Justice, that they are going forward with this first war crimes case dealing with an American citizen, which gives them jurisdiction.

And I'd like to see more of this in the future. You know those the -- that was at The Hague. The international tribunal indicted Mr. Putin for basically taking 25,000 children hostage and then putting them in these indoctrination camps in Russia, which really goes to the heart of genocide itself.

And I think the stronger of a case we can make for Ukraine against these war crime atrocities that we have seen come out of the Kremlin, in addition, Kate, the idea that the Putin invited Hamas after October the 7th to the Kremlin to meet with him.

So, his unholy alliance with Chairman Xi and now the ayatollah and Hamas, people need to know who our adversaries are. And when it comes to supplemental funding, I think it's imperative we get this done, this Ukraine funding, Israel, we also get Taiwan, and then the last line of defense to the U.S. border.

BOLDUAN: So, on the funding fight, the Senate's fighting it out right now on their side, as is the House.

There is a briefing for senators yesterday that kind of divulged into something of a shouting match, senators are saying, as they left the meeting, with Cabinet officials who were coming to brief them to get -- essentially to motivate them to get on board with moving forward with Ukraine funding, Israel funding, and to kind of get past this impasse on U.S. border funding.

And here's what Democratic Senator Chris Murphy, who has played a kind of a leading role in negotiations with Republicans over the past few weeks, what he said leaving that meeting: "We are about to abandon Ukraine. When Vladimir Putin marches into a NATO country, they will rue the day," he's saying, Republicans, "that they decided to play politics with the future of Ukraine's security."

Do you fear that is how this is going to look and could end?

MCCAUL: Well, let me say I moderated that classified briefing with Secretary Blinken and the secretary of defense as well in the House side. I think we had a more amicable discussion in the House.

But I will say that border is important for Republicans to get on board with this overall package. So I know that Chuck Schumer's trying to move forward without any border security at all. I know, on the House side, speaking with Speaker Johnson, that that is imperative for us to be able to pass. Now, I do believe the majority of majorities, House and Senate,

support the Ukraine effort. To your point, I actually raised what you just said with Secretary Austin and Blinken, and that is, if we abandon our NATO allies, and if we abandon Ukraine and allow Putin to take over Ukraine in a week, and then threaten their neighbors, that being Moldova, Georgia, possibly the Baltic states, then where are we?

We have to think about this. If we're going to abandon ship on this, just like we did in Afghanistan, what is the end result from a foreign policy standpoint? I would argue it would be disastrous. It would empower and embolden our adversaries that are already emboldened enough, and that being Putin, Chairman Xi in China, and the ayatollah, all in this together. I think it would be projecting the strongest weakness that I have seen

in my lifetime. We have a role to play to lead the free world against our adversaries, just like Ronald Reagan did. And the people in my party, I said, what would Reagan do? The president who took down the Soviet Union, what would he do in this instance?

I know what he'd do, and he would take on the Russians.

BOLDUAN: And that's the thing.

[11:15:00]

I mean, and what you're speaking to is what you would think folks could do, which is to find a middle ground here, when it seems, broadly, Republicans and Democrats agree Ukraine needs more funding before it runs out, Israel needs the support, Taiwan, as well as everyone acknowledging there is a crisis at the border, the details of which need to get hammered out.

This also -- so I want to ask you about Israel really quickly, because you have been focusing on the ongoing and escalating threat from the Houthis against U.S. forces and U.S. interests in the region since the October 7 terror attack.

U.S. warships that were sent to the Red Sea as a point of deterrence from this escalating any further, from what you have seen, is the deterrence working?

MCCAUL: Well, we have the force, projected force, and that is carrier strike groups in both the Eastern Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf, along with a nuclear submarine.

The question is that I think Iran is looking at is, do we have the resolve? They tested our forces in Iraq and Syria, hitting them numbers of times, before we even responded to this. I would say we were a little slow to respond, in addition, Houthi rebels, the same situation.

One thing is clear. The proxies of Iran are getting very, very energized, very hot, and very dangerous right now. I loved the effort to designate the Houthi rebels as a foreign terrorist organization. One of the first things this administration did when they came in was to take that designation off the table. I think that was a mistake. I think, you project strength, you get

peace and you deter aggression. I did compliment Secretary Austin, though, for putting this projected force in both the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf to respond to these very threats.

And they know that we have that capability. And that does provide deterrence.

BOLDUAN: Mr. Chairman, a lot on your plate. Thank you so much for coming in. Let's see what happens with this funding, if Congress can yet again get its act together.

MCCAUL: Thanks, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Thank you -- John.

MCCAUL: I'm an eternal optimist.

(LAUGHTER)

BOLDUAN: I don't know why, but OK. Thanks, Mr. Chairman -- John.

BERMAN: A pregnant woman at Texas is now suing the state over abortion restrictions, why she says the law puts her life at risk.

CNN exclusive reporting about who is on the witness list for Donald Trump's Georgia election interference trial.

And brand-new, out just this morning, Taylor Swift just named "TIME"'s person of the year. Why she is sharing the title with her cat.

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[11:22:16]

BOLDUAN: A CNN exclusive.

Now Donald Trump could come face-to-face with his former vice president during his trial in Georgia, sources telling CNN that among the potential witnesses that Fulton County says it may call to the stand, Mike Pence.

CNN's Nick Valencia has much more on this.

Nick, what are you learning?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is fascinating, because, up until now, Mike Pence really hasn't been much a part of the criminal proceedings.

And even in the evidence-gathering stage during the special purpose grand jury, he wasn't even called as a witness. But now we're told that he is among this list of about 150 names that are potential witnesses to testify against the former president at a future trial.

And it's interesting also because Pence, he has been -- he's one of the longtime Republican allies of the president that has publicly rebuked the comments by Trump saying that there was fraud here. Pence has been full-throated in saying that the election was just flat-out not stolen.

And, of course, infamously we all know that he was pressured by Trump to try to overturn the election results during the federal certification January 6, 2021. Now, potentially, Kate, he can be a key witness here for the state -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: You also spoke with the district attorney there in Fulton County, Fani Willis, last night. What did she have to say?

VALENCIA: So, last week, Trump's defense team, they made their debut last week in court.

Steve Sadow, he's a high-profile criminal defense attorney. And he has submitted a variety of arguments to try to get this case dismissed. And one of them is claims of election interference. He says that his client is likely to be the Republican nominee for president, and it would be -- amount to political interference if he's running for president at the same time this trial is proposed to start by the DA's office, which is August 2024.

Fani Willis was in New York last night receiving an award for her work. And we put that question to her, what she thinks about this claim of political interference.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANI WILLIS (D), FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I think it's ridiculous. We have been conducting that investigation since 2021, January 1.

The investigation has taken the normal course. And we're at the point that the investigation naturally took us to. So I think it's a ridiculous allegation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: There's no hearing scheduled on the books just yet, but the judge in this case has given the defense attorneys until December 15 to broaden out their arguments to try to get this case dismissed, and the state has until January 2 to respond to those arguments -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Nick Valencia, thank you so much -- John.

BERMAN: All right with me now, former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti.

Renato, thank you for being with us.

That has to do with the Georgia case. In the federal case, we learned from Jack Smith's team that they may, as part of their prosecution, explore Donald Trump's support for the January 6 rioters, his public support, since, you know, over the last two years. Why is that significant? [11:25:10]

RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I think it's going to be really important evidence, John, to undercut a key defense that Trump is going to raise.

Trump's defense should be, if he has a good legal team, that he said these words in the Rotunda, and he tweeted some things out, but, of course, he was shocked and appalled that people took his words and decided that they were going to attack the Capitol and brutalize police officers and others.

That's what a lot of Republicans, for example, have said. However, that doesn't square with Trump praising people who were attacking the Capitol, calling them patriots, suggesting that he's going to pardon them. That's completely inconsistent.

And so what Jack Smith and his team are going to do is suggest that this was Donald Trump's plan all along, that he actually supported the attack, that he supported the interference with the peaceful transfer of power, that he was trying to interfere with that proceeding.

And I think that will be challenging evidence for him to overcome during the trial.

BERMAN: Even though he's not sure specifically within inciting a riot?

MARIOTTI: Yes, exactly, because what it is -- they're going to use it to show, John, is evidence of his intent, his knowledge back on January 6.

What they're going to say is, we know because -- we know what his knowledge was back on that day, we know what he was intending back then, because look how he's acted since that time.

In other words, if you happen to be, for example, outside a bank, and you were saying a bunch of words, and you said you were surprised that people rushed into the bank and robbed it, if, afterwards, you are praising them, you were trying to support them, you were giving them aid in some way, it would suggest that perhaps you weren't telling the truth, or you were -- your defense is wrong when you're suggesting that you were condemning their criminal activity.

BERMAN: All right, back here in New York, in the civil fraud trial, where, we should note that Donald Trump and the organization have already been found liable for fraud, we thought that Eric Trump would testify for the defense.

We have now heard that he will not. Why not, do you think?

MARIOTTI: Well, he did testify in a deposition. And he took the Fifth over 500 times, which really puts the Trump team in a difficult position, because, in a civil case, the judge can actually infer that his testimony would be negative, would be adverse to the Trump position. So I think, at this point, it's not a mystery, that the judge is

determined that the Trump Organization has committed fraud. As you point out, John, there's already been at least a determination as to one count on that point. And it looks like the trial is not going very well for them.

So I think that Trump's legal team has decided that the downside outweighs the upside of creating a record on appeal. And so they're not putting up Eric Trump for that purpose.

BERMAN: We still expect to hear from Trump himself, though, who again, testified first for the state, and now will be a defense witness.

MARIOTTI: I -- yes, I don't view that as a legal decision. I view that as a personal decision by Trump and also a P.R. spin sort of decision.

Trump is trying to turn that trial into a bit of a circus. He's trying to divert attention from the finding of fraud, which is very significant, and trying to turn this into kind of a personal back-and- forth with the judge.

So I expect it to be very colorful, to try to distract, to try to tell his own story, and to use that as a megaphone, rather than a way to actually carry forward a legal strategy.

BERMAN: Counselor Renato Mariotti, thank you so much for being with us.

Thank you -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us: Six people are dead, a suspect is now in custody after a shooting spree across two Texas cities. What we're now learning about that suspect.

And the iconic TV and movie producer and writer Norman Lear, he has passed away at 101 years old. We will look back at his career.

We will be back.

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