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Trump's Dictatorship Remark Raises Concerns; Mike Pence On Witness List In Georgia Election Subversion Trial; Legal Battle In Colorado: Attempt To Keep Trump Off The Ballot; CNN Poll Shows Biden's Approval Rating Drops On The Economy; Israeli Forces Surround Home Of Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 06, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:16]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Donald Trump sidestepping a question about whether he would abuse his power or seek retribution if he's re- elected, insisting he would only be a dictator on day one. This as his Republican rivals hit the debate stage tonight and the race to be the Trump alternative. Plus, there's nowhere safe to go. A dire warning from a U.N. agency on the deteriorating conditions in Gaza. Why it says the situation is getting worse each minute.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And the U.S. Coast Guard rocked by allegations that its leaders concealed damning information for years, now acknowledging it, quote, failed to keep our people safe. New CNN reporting on reforms that it plans to make. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

SANCHEZ: A 24-hour dictatorship. That's how Donald Trump says he would start a potential second term in the White House. His comments coming during an Iowa town hall last night after he already signaled he would use presidential powers to carry out personal vendettas. His allies have echoed those plans, leading to a host of former government officials, constitutional scholars, and other Republicans warning that Trump would usher in an era of authoritarianism. Now, last night, the former president's ally and advisor and also Fox News anchor Sean Hannity offered him an out. Trump didn't exactly take it. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Under no circumstances, you are promising America tonight you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody.

DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Except for day one.

HANNITY: Except for?

TRUMP: Except for day one.

HANNITY: Meaning?

TRUMP: I want to close the border and I want to drill, drill, drill. He says, you're not going to be a dictator, are you? I said, no, no, no, other than day one. We're closing the border and we're drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I'm not a dictator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN's Kristen Holmes has been tracking all of this. So, Kristen, unpack that answer for us.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, just as you noted, I want to point out here, Hannity is an ally of Donald Trump. So, this is coming from someone who is close to the former president. Like many allies of Donald Trump, there is a concern overall that some of Trump's ramped-up rhetoric is not going to play well outside of his loyal base, say, if he were to be the nominee and there was a general election. So, this was a close ally giving him not one, but multiple opportunities to categorically deny that he would be a dictator, that he would abuse power.

And instead, what you got was this non-answer. It was non-substantive and it was really this tongue-in-cheek, you know, I'm going to be a dictator in order to drill and do this. But what else this does is it gives another opening to Biden and his allies. Because what they have been trying to do is that if this is a rematch between Trump and Biden, they want to paint this as a rematch or a choice for voters between authoritarianism and democracy. So, this is just another opening there.

Now, of course, as we know, the former president has tried to turn this argument around to say it's actually Biden who is against democracy and anti-democratic because of all of the legal battles that Trump is facing. Those are just Biden trying to send in his Department of Justice to turn the tables, to go after a political opponent being Donald Trump. But again, that's not really an argument that seems to be resonating outside of his closest group of supporters. So this would have been an opportunity for him to just say, hey, that's not happening. And yet he didn't take it.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, it is also an opening, at least in theory, for his Republican rivals on the debate stage tonight. We'll see if they take an opportunity to call him out on it. Kristen Holmes, thanks so much for the reporting. Brianna.

KEILAR: Former Vice President Mike Pence could end up inside of a Georgia courtroom in the 2020 election subversion trial. There, CNN has exclusively learned that he is on a secret list of potential witnesses that was just submitted by the Fulton County District Attorney. We have CNN's Zach Cohen here with more on this exclusive reporting. All right, so Zach, if Pence is called to testify here, he could obviously be a key witness for the prosecution.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yeah, Brianna, it's hard to imagine there's a bigger name on this witness list, which we're told contains over 150 individuals on it. But Pence by far has to be the biggest one. And look, we've learned because this document is under seal, that he is among them and that he could now be called to testify in a trial situation, obviously called to testify against his former boss, Donald Trump, once we get to that stage. And it's important to remember, too, that in Georgia, what makes that case different from all the rest is that the courtroom does allow cameras in it. So, there is a scenario imaginable where Mike Pence on camera testifying in the same room as Donald Trump.

KEILAR: Fascinating. So, he has signalled a willingness, you know, to cooperate when it comes to being a witness in a federal trial, any of these proceedings here. Do you know what his thinking is sort of in this case?

[14:05:19]

COHEN: Yeah, it's really interesting because Pence did not interact with prosecutors in the Georgia case at all pre-indictment or since. He's never testified under oath. That's different than his interactions with the federal case. He's met and testified before a grand jury under oath in that. But listen to what Pence said in August when asked about testifying in a federal trial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT (R): I have no plans to testify, but look, we'll always comply with the law. But look, I want to tell you, I don't know what the path of this indictment will be. There actually are profound issues around this pertaining to the First Amendment freedom of speech.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: No plans to testify raises First Amendment issues. But does Pence have any plans to testify in a federal trial? He does ultimately say he's willing to comply with the law. And it'll be interesting to see if that also applies to the Georgia case. But also keep in mind, we're told, our colleague Jamie Gangel is told, that Pence was surprised to find out that he was on this list. He found out through our reporting. And he's sort of wondering why he was included. Again, he didn't have any interactions with prosecutors leading up to this point. So, he's sort of like, why would they want me to come in and testify? It reminds me, seeing if he has information, new information that could be harmful to Donald Trump in a trial situation.

KEILAR: How are both the Pence and Trump camps reacting to this news?

COHEN: Well, the Pence camp, you know, by all accounts, it does seem like they're surprised. And they're trying to figure out what exactly prosecutors could want to question the former vice president about. The Trump team, I think, saw this coming a little bit. We saw in a hearing on Friday that the Trump team was specifically using the reference of Pence as a potential witness to try to get the judge to facilitate the handover of evidence in the federal case to the Trump team in Georgia. So, you know, both sides sort of reacting differently. Maybe had different expectations coming in. But, you know, as of now, Pence can be called to testify in a trial once we get to that stage. Now, the question, though, is when will a trial start in the George case?

KEILAR: When? Possibilities? The range?

COHEN: The prosecutors want to start it in August 2024. Trump wants to stop or keep it from happening until he leaves office, assuming he wins the presidency. So that's about a five-year difference.

KEILAR: A five-year difference between the two. And there you have it. Zach Cohen, thank you so much. Boris.

SANCHEZ: So just about an hour from now, the Colorado Supreme Court is set to begin hearing oral arguments in a closely watched case that aims to keep former President Trump off the ballot in that state. It centres on the U.S. Constitution's ban on insurrectionists holding office. A Colorado district judge found that Trump engaged in an insurrection on January 6th, 2021. But they argue that the ban does not specifically apply to those running for the presidency. The case was brought by Republican and independent voters in coordination the liberal-leaning watchdog group called Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics. Representative of that group joins us now. Noah Bookbinder is the group's CEO. He's live for us in Denver.

Noah, thanks so much for being with us. So, I want to bring up the specific section of the Constitution where this comes up to sort of illuminate for our viewers where the disagreement is. It's Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Essentially, it says that if you've engaged in insurrection, you're prohibited from becoming a member of Congress, other positions, even an elector of the president but it doesn't specifically say you can't run for president. What is your counter argument to the judge's decision in Colorado that sort of highlights that argument?

NOAH BOOKBINDER, PRES. CITIZENS FOR RESPONSIBILITY: Well, quite simply, as our team is going to be arguing, as you said, in about an hour in front of the court, the provision clearly says that you can't be an officer of the United States. And we think that the law is quite clear, the Constitution is quite clear in many different places that the presidency is an office of the United States, and that makes the president an officer of the United States. And it seems really pretty incredible to think that the president of the United States would not be considered an officer or that this provision that was meant to protect the republic from those who had attacked it, those who had engaged in insurrection, would cover every position in the federal government, a whole lot of positions in state government, except for the most powerful one. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. And we think it's not supported by the language of the Constitution or the history, the documentation of what people, how people viewed this at the time.

SANCHEZ: So, Trump has prevailed in similar challenges in other states. How confident are you that this three-judge panel, or rather the Colorado Supreme Court, is going to see it the same way you do?

[14:10:29]

BOOKBINDER: Well, I think one thing that's really significant in this case is that it's the only case in which a trial court held a real trial, heard from witnesses, including law enforcement officers, members of Congress, experts on constitutional history and on extremism and on the powers of the president. And after all that, made this really incredible judgment that as a matter of law, Donald Trump had engaged in insurrection. And so, in many ways, the hard part of the case already came in favor of our clients. We think on this, this is a narrow legal question.

We have heard in recent weeks experts across the political and ideological spectrum who agree with our take on that. That ranges from a legendary conservative judge, J. Michael Ludig, Professor Lawrence Tribe, Federalist Society professors, Michael Stokes Paulson and William Bout. So a lot of really major voices saying, we've looked at this, we've studied this in some cases for years, and we think it's clear that the president is covered by this provision.

And so, we think that there's, you know, obviously, this is ultimately going to be up to the Colorado Supreme Court. They're going to hear argument today. But we think there's a real possibility that they accept this judgment that the district court made on evidence about Donald Trump's engagement in insurrection, but that they end up feeling like on this narrow legal question of where they're considering it anew of whether the president is an officer, that that decision was not correct.

SANCHEZ: So, Noah, you sound bullish about the Supreme Court in Colorado, but it's highly likely that this winds up in front of the Supreme Supreme Court, the federal Supreme Court, a body that has made several controversial decisions, leaning conservatively. Three justices appointed by former President Trump. What are your thoughts on your odds there?

BOOKBINDER: Well, look, we're taking this one step at a time. Obviously, we don't know what the Colorado Supreme Court will do. We think that we're going to get a really very fair hearing today. And, you know, we feel like there's a real chance there. If this does make it to the U.S. Supreme Court, I will simply say that the U.S. Supreme Court has, has been very fair on issues of checks and balances and potential abuses of power by the former president. That we think there is a strong originalist argument for the 14th Amendment applying in this case. That is a type of argument that the Supreme Court tends to be interested in. So, you know, as I said, we're going to take it one step at a time. We think if we, if it does make it there, that we will get a fair hearing. And, you know -- we'll see what happens.

SANCHEZ: Noah Bookbinder, appreciate you joining us. Look forward to having more conversations about this down the road.

BOOKBINDER: Thanks for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Still to come on News Central, it is potentially the last presidential primary debate, and frontrunner Donald Trump will not even be in the room. What we'll be watching for next. Meantime, President Biden's approval rating drops even further in the latest CNN poll, the details on those important numbers. And later, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says his troops have now surrounded the home of Hamas's leader in Gaza. The latest details from the region when we come back.

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[14:15:39]

KEILAR: We are less than six weeks away. Can you believe that? So close.

SANCHEZ: Time flies.

KEILAR: It really does. From the Iowa caucuses here and tonight, four candidates. Chris Christie, Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley, Vivek Ramaswamy, all facing off in the fourth Republican presidential primary debate.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, but yet again, the clear frontrunner for the nomination, Donald Trump, will not be there. He's going to be spending the night campaigning in Florida instead. Let's discuss with CNN political director David Chalian and CNN correspondent Jessica Dean. Jessica, first to you, the dynamic now changes on the debate stage. Fewer candidates. And Nikki Haley's really emerged as the prime Trump, and she's a great alternative. Is it fair to say that we'll likely see them go after her the most?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, she certainly has a lot of wind at her back and a lot of momentum right now. And I think it is worth noting that that has been because, in part, to her performances on these debate stages. She has been able to convert those performances into growing support. And I would argue that she's been the most effective at that. Because we only have four, there's obviously more time for them to all go at each other. And that is going to be a different dynamic. We've seen very few candidates. Very pointed back and forth between her and Vivek Ramaswamy. I would anticipate we're going to see more of that tonight.

And then you have Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who has made it through these debates without really harming himself, without causing any major problems. But where is that big moment, like Nikki Haley has seen, kind of over and over again? Can he do something like that, especially timing-wise? We're now ever closer, as you just laid it out, to the Iowa caucuses. So, it's a prime time. But the bottom line is, they're all still running to be the Trump alternative at this point.

KEILAR: You're so right. I mean, we might really be looking for that moment where she takes on Ramaswamy, but what does that buy her? Besides like this water-cooler kind of moment that people are having the next day, does she really need to take on a Donald Trump? And does she need to take him on over his comments about dictatorship?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I would imagine that they'll be asked about Donald Trump's comments last night in the Fox News town hall and about his refusal to rule out the notion that he would abuse power when in office. He refused to say that. We know where Chris Christie stands on that. He's been making that the very centrepiece of his campaign. I do think it's a valid question, Brianna, about the Haley-DeSantis strategy vis-a-vis Trump here, which has been a question throughout this entire cycle because it is so clear that Republican primary voters, even those supporting candidates not named Trump, are not all that interested in hearing Trump being attacked.

[14:20:00]

I mean, he is the dominant figure in this race because he's a very popular figure among Republicans. And so how they navigate that, you know, is something to watch. And I would also just note that Nikki Haley, in this new position of this momentum, no doubt she's going to be ready for a lot of incoming. And I think watching how she handles that, not just from Ramaswamy, will be important for her candidacy.

SANCHEZ: Notably, to David's point, Chris Christie's approach when it comes to Trump here hasn't really won him much. He barely got qualified to be on the debate stage tonight. Do we anticipate at any point that the other Republicans on the stage are hoping for anything other than a conviction, perhaps, or some break in the dam that might actually give them substantial hope?

DEAN: Right. I do think that there is a pervasive theory among all of them to just be the last person standing when whatever happens, happens to Donald Trump, right? Like, well, I'm here as the alternative, and when he goes down, I will be the person. A couple of things. I think you're exactly right about Chris Christie's strategy. And look, I've been in rooms. I'm remembering one evangelical gathering where he was booed when he was trying to just give his message, which we've all heard time and time again. So, there are parts of the party that certainly have not welcomed his message about the former president at all.

It's worth thinking about New Hampshire, where he's doing very well and where I think he's really trained a lot of his efforts. And Nikki Haley also now looking to New Hampshire. And so that kind of puts them in an interesting spot. We haven't really seen them going at each other. I don't know that we'll see that tonight, but it is something to keep an eye on.

KEILAR: Don't you have to hedge your bets besides just running to be number two in case something happens to Donald Trump? You know, cover both bases, maybe. Do you think that we will see that?

CHALIAN: Yeah, you mean try to actually outright win the race?

KEILAR: You know, David, it's funny that you bring up this novel strategy.

KEILAR: Why not do that? It's a crazy idea, isn't it?

DEAN: And I think they would all tell you. Yes and no. I'm not running for second place. I'm running to be the nominee. But the situation and the environment remains that at this point, that is the layout.

CHALIAN: No voter has voted in this contest yet. And so not only are they waiting to see if something happens to Donald Trump, but I think they're also waiting to see how voters actually cast their ballots in this race.

SANCHEZ: Notably, David, CNN has some new polling about President Biden and his standing on the economy, and it's not a good picture.

CHALIAN: Yeah, this is why all four of these folks on the stage, plus Donald Trump, are eager to take on the president. His standing right now with the American people is pretty weak. Take a look at his overall approval rating in our brand new CNN poll. He's at 37% approval, 63% disapprove. That 37% approval is about where he's been hanging out down there in the cellar for the last couple of months, but it's actually a numeric low, and it is way down over time in the last year. Look, a year ago, he was at 46%, January, 45%. He's now down at 37%. And on the economy, which is issue number one for voters in this poll, his approval rating's even worse. It's at 33% approval, 67% disapproval, despite a lot of the economic growth that we've actually seen take place. Obviously, Americans are still blaming Joe Biden for what they're not intrinsically feeling on the economy.

KEILAR: It's tough. There are some good economic indicators, but Americans are really feeling inflation on some key issues. They're feeling it on housing. They can't ignore that, even as Biden is trying to sell his message. So he'll keep doing that. He has a little time here. Jessica, David, thank you so much to both of you. We'll be looking to see what happens this evening. And coming up, months after a CNN investigation, the U.S. Coast Guard releasing its own report into its own misconduct and sexual assaults. Finally, we're going to tell you what they found and the sweeping reforms that they're planning just ahead.

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[14:25:19]

KEILAR: Two months since Hamas slaughtered more than 1,200 people in Israel, and now in Gaza, Israeli forces have encircled the home of Hamas' top official in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar. No surprise, he's not home. But Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is hoping that it sends a message.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Last night, I said that our forces can reach anywhere in the Gaza Strip. Now they encircled Sinwar's house. His house is not his fortress, and he can escape. But it's only a matter of time until we get him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now joining me now is the Prime Minister's senior advisor, Mark Regev. Mark, thank you for being with us. Of course, unlike the Israelis that Hamas brutalized on October 7th, Sinwar is not home. He's certainly not caught unaware. What is the goal here in circling his home?

MARK REGEV, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER'S SENIOR ADVISOR: I think it's a symbolic victory. It's a symbolic victory for Israel, but it will be a real victory very soon. It's only a matter of time before we get the man who was directly responsible for the massacre of 1,200 Israelis on October 7th, the brutal massacre, the atrocities, the rapes, the burnings, the beheadings. We will reach him, and justice will be done.

KEILAR: Of course, as you are following very closely, the U.S. Congress is debating a funding bill. Senator Regev, you've been a member of the U.S. Congress for over a decade. Senator Bernie Sanders says it is, quote, absolutely irresponsible to give Israel unconditional aid. What is your message to American lawmakers like him who want to condition the aid?

REGEV: Look, Israel's fight against Hamas is America's fight, too, because Hamas represents a sort of barbarism, this extremism, this terrorism.