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CNN Poll Of Polls: Trump Leads GOP Primary Rivals By 40-Plus Points; Pence Put On Witness List In Georgia Election Case; Ethics Committee Asks To Interview Witness In Gaetz Probe. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 06, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:56]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Donald Trump says he won't be a dictator "other than day one." That shocking comment coming as the former president is making it clear he is out for retribution against his political enemies. How will the other 2024 candidates react when they take the debate stage tonight?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus CNN exclusive reporting on the Georgia election subversion case. Prosecutors adding a big name to the witness list, Mike Pence. So what could the former vice president reveal.

And Israel says it surrounded the house of Hamas' leader in Gaza. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying it's only a matter of time before we get him. Details in a live report.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: In a few hours, four Republicans will be battling it out on the debate stage, but once again, Donald Trump will not be there and we now know just how big of a lead Trump has in his 2024 primary field, a whopping 61 percent of potential Republican voters favor the former president in CNN's latest Poll of Polls. Just look at this. This is a lead of more than 40 points.

Trump is also dominating the discourse ahead of tonight's debate and that's because last night, he sidestepped a question or two really about whether he would abuse his power during a second term. Trump's equivocating answer came after he previously suggested he'd use the presidency to go after his enemies.

We have CNN's Alayna Treene and Jessica Dean all over this for us.

All right, Alayna, most candidates will be quick to say, yes, they're not going to be a dictator. It's a pretty easy question. Trump, of course, is not most candidates. I think the question is going to be how as well, do these other candidates handle his answer?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: You know, I think that's a great point and how they talk about this on the debate stage, if they talk about it at all, if they're even willing to go there.

KEILAR: Good point.

TREENE: I do think Chris Christie will be willing to go there. We've seen him time and time again, kind of be the one willing to take on and attack Donald Trump directly. He has made a lot of his campaign about that.

But look, last night during that townhall, Sean Hannity, who we, you know, is a TV personality, is allies with Donald Trump kind of gave Trump an opening to be like, hey, there's been a lot of scrutiny over reports and talk of using the presidency for political retribution, using the government against your enemies, gave him the opportunity to deny that, but Donald Trump didn't do that. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL HOST: Do you in any way, have any plans whatsoever if re-elected president to abuse power? To break the law? To use the government to go after people?

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You mean like they're using right now?

HANNITY: Under no circumstances, you are promising America tonight, you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody.

TRUMP: Except for day one.

HANNITY: Except for?

TRUMP: He's going crazy. Except for day one.

HANNITY: Meaning?

TRUMP: I want to close the border and I want to drill, drill, drill.

HANNITY: That's not -- that's --

TRUMP: He says you're not going to be a dictator, are you? I said, no, no, other than day one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: All right, so that was a bit of a weird answer, as you could see, but I mean, look, he is joking. He was talking about being a dictator and joking about it. I don't think, you know, just covering Donald Trump for several years.

He was saying on day one, to drill and to do the border. But still, he was given an opportunity to deny a lot of the criticism that he has been getting from the outside about his second term plans, and he didn't take it, and I do want to point out that he has said publicly himself, the former president that if you were elected, he would use the DOJ to go after his enemies, he would use the government to go after his political foes.

And so I think that's really important context as part of this conversation.

KEILAR: It's like he tried to make it more about some policy issues that he would use executive power, but I mean, Hannity was there, it was almost like he is holding the dustbin, like sweep it right in here, but that's --

TREENE: He had two opportunities.

KEILAR: Two chances, didn't take it.

Okay, Jessica, so obviously, the caucuses, man, they are just right around the corner.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right around the corner.

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KEILAR: Six weeks away. What do these candidates needs to do? If they're really trying to close the gap here and not just run for second place?

DEAN: Well, a couple of things. Number one, no one has voted yet, and we do keep reminding ourselves of that, because polling is what it is. And obviously, we were looking at national polling there and state by state, you know, it is a little bit different, but far and away, the former president continues to lead and so many kind of the conventional wisdom is oh, these debates are just the race for second place.

And in a way, yes, it is a race to be the alternative to the former president. But if you asked any of those people on the stage tonight, any four of them, they would all say we're running for, you know, the first slot.

The fact is, Nikki Haley has a lot of wind in her back. She's got a lot of momentum. She has been able to capitalize on these debates probably more effectively than anybody else to really push herself ahead.

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is really zeroed in on Iowa. Obviously, all of them are focused on Iowa. But you could argue he's really got an all-in on Iowa approach. So those caucuses are very pivotal to him and what will he do tonight? What will the dynamic be between the two of them? What will the dynamic be with Chris Christie who has an eye toward New Hampshire as Nikki Haley does? I mean, we have not seen them really go at each other.

With this smaller debate stage, you will have obviously more time, and you have to be more direct. There is no kind of hiding. It is fewer opportunities to hide behind somebody else. You kind of have to go right at each other.

KEILAR: There will be some interesting moments, and we'll be talking about them tomorrow.

TREENE: We sure will.

KEILAR: Jessica, Alayna, thank you so much to both of you -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Now to a CNN exclusive. CNN has learned that Fulton County, Georgia prosecutors have submitted their secret list of trial witnesses in the election subversion case against Donald Trump, and one of the 150-plus names stands out: Former Vice President Mike Pence.

CNN's Nick Valencia is outside the Fulton County courthouse in Atlanta.

Nick, Pence could be a key witness for the prosecution. What are you hearing?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the Fulton County District Attorney's Office signaling that he very well may be a key witness against his old boss putting him on this list of potential 150 names to testify against the former president and the remaining co- defendants in this case.

You know, it's really interesting because up until this point, Pence really hasn't been a big part of the criminal proceedings. He wasn't even really part of the evidence gathering stage, not called to testify in front of the Special Purpose Grand Jury. Of course, he was infamously pressured by the former president to overturn the election results on January 6 during the insurrection, and he has also said that he is willing if compelled to testify, to agree to testify against his old boss -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: And Nick, DA Fani Willis is pushing back on claims from Trump's attorney that her request to start the trial in August would interfere with the 2024 presidential election, and she is reacting to this. She's calling it ridiculous, right?

VALENCIA: That's right. You remember last week, Steve Sadow, Trump's attorney, he presented a myriad of arguments to try to get the case thrown out and one of them was this idea of political interference.

He says, there is no question Trump is likely going to be the GOP presidential nominee. The DA's Office have said they want to start this trial August 2024 right in the heart of the presidential election, and Steve Sadow says that amounts to political interference.

Last night, Fani Willis was in New York to receive award for her work, and we asked her what she thought about that claim.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I think it's ridiculous. We've been conducting that investigation since 2021, January 1st.

The investigation has taken a normal course, and we are at the point that the investigation naturally took us to, so I think it's a ridiculous allegation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Fani Willis calls it ridiculous. Well, that is being echoed by Steve Sadow. This is what he tells CNN here, saying: "What is utterly ridiculous is Willis, the DA in Fulton County, Georgia, campaigning for substantial money handouts from left-wing Democrats in Washington, DC and New York City, yet proclaiming her prosecution of President Trump is not political."

So you can see here Boris, things are just starting to warm up in this case, the judge has given the defense attorneys until December 15th broaden their arguments and the state has until January 2nd to respond -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Nick Valencia, thanks so much for the update -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Now to some CNN exclusive reporting, and this is about Congressman Matt Gaetz.

The Republican-led House Ethics Committee has reached out to at least one witness as part of its investigation into the Florida lawmaker.

We have CNN's Paula Reid with us now on this reporting.

This was once a dormant investigation, but there seems to be some movement here.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, as we reported over the summer, the investigation was once again active after the Justice Department informed the congressman that he would not be charged in the criminal probe, but the timing here, this interview request is significant because this request went out last Thursday, just a day before the House voted to expel now former Congressman George Santos.

And the Santos investigation was such a success for the Ethics Committee. They did incredibly detailed investigation and then of course, that vote to expel him.

[15:10:06]

But the fact of the day before that vote, they were sending out this request for an interview for a witness related to the Gaetz probe suggest that they are now turning their attention once again to the Florida congressman.

We would also to note that Representative Gaetz, I mean, he was one of the most vocal defenders of Santos ahead of that vote. Let's take a listen to a little bit of what he said that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Since the beginning of this Congress, there are only two ways you get expelled. You get convicted of a crime or you participated in the Civil War. Neither apply to George Santos, and so I rise not to defend George Santos whoever he is, but to defend the very precedent that my colleagues are willing to shatter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Now, of course, George Santos was investigated by the Justice Department and subsequently charged. Congressman Gaetz was investigated for possible sex trafficking, obstruction, lobbying violations, but ultimately, he was not charged, but this Ethics probe continues.

But what's interesting is we're trying to figure out exactly what they're focused on. We know they've asked questions about certain lobbying activities, but it does not appear that this investigation at this point is really paralleling what the Justice Department did, because we reached out to a lot of really key witnesses from the federal investigation.

For example, Gaetz' longtime friend, Joe Greenberg, who is currently serving an 11-year prison term after pleading guilty to multiple charges, including sex trafficking, in order to get a pretty good deal, he actually cooperated against the congressman, provided them information. They haven't reached out to him.

They haven't reached out to an ex-girlfriend of the congressman who was really a key witness for the government and testified before the grand jury, and also the woman who was only 17 at the time of an alleged sexual encounter with the congressman. They also haven't reached out to her.

So at this point, you know, we're trying to figure out exactly what the ethics investigation is focused on because right now, it does not seem that they are reaching out yet to some of the people that the Justice Department's investigation really relied heavily on.

But again, the congressman has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. But I point again, to the timing of this request, just one day before the Santos vote. It appears that not only are they moving forward with this, but it appears to be a priority.

KEILAR: All right, we know that you'll keep tracking this. Much more to come. Paula, thank you -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: We have some breaking news just into CNN.

This is out of Nevada on the state investigation into fake electors there. We want to go straight to CNN's Kyung Lah.

Kyung, what are you learning about this?

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're just getting some news from Nevada's attorney general, Aaron Ford that he has -- he, through a grand jury has indeed indicted six Nevadans, announcing this indictment of six individuals who posed as fake electors on December 14, 2020.

They broadcast this ceremony on livestream video, and so what we have seen now years after they signed a fake document, where they declared that these six electoral votes in Nevada would be going to Donald Trump when it was Joe Biden who won the state of Nevada. The state attorney general announcing the indictments of the six Nevadans.

Very important to note here, Boris, that these are felony charges. A Category C felony for offering a false instrument for filing, a Category D felony for uttering a forged instrument that is indeed the document that was signed, and for offering a false instrument titled certificate of the votes of the 2020 electors from Nevada.

So this, in essence is now the penalty for that sham ceremony that they broadcast in 2020, trying to divert and really undermine the voters of Nevada. The attorney general there following through on what began as an investigation earlier, Boris.

He had said that he didn't think there was enough, something changed in the investigation, and now we are seeing these indictments being announced.

SANCHEZ: And Kyung, is there any guidance on what might have changed in the investigation and potentially what kind of penalties these pro- Trump fake electors are potentially facing?

LAH: What we don't know is and it's not specified here in this news release that the attorney general sent out. What we do know are that there have been a series of events.

Earlier when the attorney general in the state of Nevada said that there wasn't enough to have an investigation, what happened in the state of Georgia is that Kenneth Chesebro, the architect of this fake electors plot in multiple states became a cooperating witness essentially to the state of Georgia.

He, through his attorney put a filing in, said that he would travel to Nevada, to Arizona perhaps and cooperate with investigations there. That's not spelled out in the information we have today.

The attorney general is expected to have a news conference at 5:30 Eastern Time where he is going to talk about this in front of reporters and he will be taking some questions.

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SANCHEZ: Yes, the timing with Kenneth Chesebro, potentially critical as you pointed out, a significant development out West. Kyung Lah, we know you'll stay on top of it.

Much more news to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: We're back now with breaking news out of Nevada on the state investigation into the fake electors there. We have CNN's Kyung Lah with us now.

Kyung, tell us again what you're learning here?

LAH: We're just hearing from the attorney general, the state attorney general of Nevada that a grand jury has indicted six people known as fake electors. These are fake electors from 2020.

You may not know their specific names, but these are people who on December 14, 2020 essentially staged a fraud in front of cameras.

[15:20:07]

There was a livestream video where six people gathered, five men, one woman in the state of Nevada, and they gathered to say that they were signing a document declaring Donald Trump is the winner. It became the fake elector document. The reason why it's fake is because Donald Trump did not win Nevada's six electoral votes. It was Joe Biden who won in 2020.

The fake document then became a part of this entire scheme, a multi- state scheme that we saw repeated over and over again, in Arizona, Michigan, Georgia. There have been independent state investigations, and today, Nevada announcing that there are indictments of these six people.

They are facing some serious charges, Class C and Class D felonies, essentially signing a false document and lying to the voters and trying to undermine the vote of the American people in 2020. The impact of which we are still seeing in today's electorate.

So these are very serious charges. There are some people, you may not specifically know the name Michael McDonald. He is one of the people who was named today, but he is very close to Donald Trump in the West. As recently as last few months ago, announced Trump at his Nevada rally. So these are people who know the president and the former president also knows them.

KEILAR: You know, I think Kyung, sometimes this idea of the fake electors goes over the heads of people. Like you said, the names may not be memorable, but this was so key to the scheme to invalidate the election results, not just in Nevada, but in several other states. And now, you add this to the list of where you're seeing fake electors charged also in Georgia, also in Michigan.

This was part of this grand strategy to offer this alternate slate of electors and really change the game for Donald Trump as these election results were certified.

LAH: It became a part of the lie, a visual element of a lie, a multistate lie, and so what we are seeing are attorneys general in Arizona and Michigan just investigating, and in some cases, like we're seeing from the state of Nevada, going through and announcing indictments.

So this is a way at trying to chip away the lie that continues to persist today when you talk to people who wonder did that election in 2020, was that real? It was real. But there was this alternate universe that millions of people watched, believed in, and they thought that was the truth. So here is the attempt to try to correct the record.

KEILAR: All right, so important. Kyung Lah, thank you for the latest there on that breaking news. Grand jury indicting six pro-Trump fake electors.

Kyung Lah live for us on this -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: We are following more breaking news in to CNN from Nevada. This is from Las Vegas where police are responding to reports of an active shooter on the UNLV campus, the University of Nevada.

Let's go to Stephanie Elam who has been following this as we take a look at live pictures not far from the scene.

Stephanie, what are you learning?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris.

This is all just happening right now, so we have very few details, but what I can tell you is according to the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, they are saying that they're reporting to shots fired on the campus of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

In fact, I want to read this tweet to you coming in from LVMPD and it says: "Breaking: We are responding to preliminary reports of an active shooter on the campus of UNLV near Beam Hall. There appears to be multiple victims at this time. Please avoid the area and we will have more information soon."

Of course, we are now getting in these ground shots here where you can see the (AUDIO GAP). We understand the police are sweeping through the area right now looking to clear the area, but obviously, this is a terrifying incident that is happening in Las Vegas right now.

As the police are working through this, we are still working to get more information and to clear more of this for you, Boris, but right now we are watching what is developing here in Las Vegas.

SANCHEZ: Yes, Stephanie, please stand by.

We want to bring in former Boston Police Commissioner, Ed Davis.

Commissioner Davis, thanks so much for being with us. You see what appears to be a sizable response to the scene at the campus at UNLV. Talk to us about the unique challenge of responding to reports of a shooting in a setting like a college campus, specifically one in a city like Las Vegas.

ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Hi, Boris. This is a terrible situation. One of the most complex responses that police have to deal with.

This Beam Hall is right in the center of the campus, so it is surrounded by students and faculty and so the job of the police responding is to go to the sound of gunfire, to try to identify where that threat is coming from and to make that threat safe.

[15:25:12]

Then a secondary response is to identify victims and try to get them the assistance that they need. The initial few minutes is critical in gunshot wounds to try to stem the flow of bleeding.

So there's a lot happening. Securing the scene starts with setting up a perimeter that's far enough away from where the shooting is, so that the people on the perimeter are safe, and then slowly collapsing that perimeter and getting victims and witnesses away from the threat and hopefully finding the shooter.

SANCHEZ: Yes, it is obviously a complex process, and notably, back in 2017, there was a massive shooting at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas at a concert. So this is an area and a police force, a law enforcement force that is sadly familiar with this kind of response, right, Commissioner?

DAVIS: It is. I was there that evening when the shooting happened at Mandalay and it was a horrible experience, but it gave the Las Vegas Police, the Metropolitan Police there a significant amount of experience in dealing with these things.

They studied it. They work really hard at responding properly. They did a good job at Mandalay and this job will even be better that they're there.

This is right on the outskirts of the Harry Reid Airport, not far from where the Mandalay shooting happened.

SANCHEZ: Commissioner Davis, we want to listen to people that are there on the scene. Let's listen in from our affiliate KVVU.

REPORTER: All right, okay, so just look at me. So first of all, what's your first name?

JESSICA: Jessica.

REPORTER: You're a student here?

JESSICA: I'm a student of UNLV.

REPORTER: What do you know? What did you see?

JESSICA: We were in the Student Union on the second floor, and we heard at the business building, the BAH on the second floor, there was an active shooter.

We found that cops were on site and we just sheltered in place, and so we were evacuated and it took about maybe 30 minutes to get us evacuated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lots of cops on campus. They had guns. We all walked out of the building hands out. They evacuated us at the Student Union.

We walked past one of the windows. The window was shot through. Glass everywhere. So we're glad that we were taken out though.

We are going to head back though --

REPORTER: What were your thoughts while that was happening?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been in active lockdown before. It wasn't anything crazy, but we could hear the gunshots from where we were.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, about 200 kids all in one space. A lot of people were panicking. But we're --

JESSICA: But we made it out okay.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we're just glad that we're out here.

JESSICA: Yes.

REPORTER: Did the school give you any kind of tweet like --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They did.

JESSICA: They did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had live e-mails, live announcements telling us where the shooter was, giving us updates on the situation. I will commend the school for giving us really recent updates. That was great.

REPORTER: All right. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: We've just been listening to several witnesses apparently of the reported shooting at the campus of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

We're now watching officers telling a photographer from our affiliate KVVU to move back. It appears that they are expanding the scene there.

I just want to repeat what I heard from some of the witnesses. They said that they were in a study hall, they could hear gunshots. At some point they got a message from the university telling them to shelter in place. They waited for roughly a half hour before law enforcement officials came to them and escorted them out of the building, holding weapons and asking them to keep their hands up.

I want to bring back Commissioner Davis, former Boston Police Commissioner, Ed Davis.

Sir, from what you heard from those witnesses, does anything stand out?

DAVIS: Well, the fact that they are expanding the perimeter is probably an indication that they are looking for the suspect. Every minute that goes by the suspect can be further away from where the incident happened.

So, it's a very tense time right now. There's hundreds of tips coming in from people who think they saw something, from people who are panicked and afraid, and so the police are trying to sort through all of this.

We call it the fog of war when the when the incident first happens to try to get a beat on where this guy or person may be that committed this shooting. So that's really what's happening right now.

They're talking to people like you just had on, on camera, asking them what they saw and what they heard and they're trying to piece together a description and direction of travel of the suspect.

SANCHEZ: Right, and Ed, obviously that could be a very complicated process because from my understanding, this scene is only about three miles away from the Las Vegas Strip, which is always bustling with tourists and entertainers. That is a significant problem for investigators, no?