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Soon, Trump Attends Civil Fraud Trial as Testimony Nears End; House GOP Threatens Hunter Biden With Contempt Charge; Polls Show Trump Has Huge Lead 39 Days from Iowa Caucuses. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 07, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump expected back in a New York City courtroom this morning while he prepares to be the final star witness in his own defense.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: This is his first chance to comment on the debate last night, the latest one he skipped. We're getting new reporting on what the campaigns themselves and key insiders think might have changed after that performance.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And gunfire on a college campus, three people killed, one in the hospital still. The community of UNLV completely shaken. And now what we're learning, starting to learn, about the suspect.

I'm Kate Bolduan with Sara Sidner and John Berman. This is CNN News Central.

SIDNER: All right, you are looking at live pictures of New York City outside the courtroom there. Any minute now, Donald Trump is expected to leave Trump Tower and head to court to attend his civil business fraud trial.

The former president is also expected to take the stand again on Monday as the last defense witness. Trump and his sons were already found liable in the $250 million lawsuit brought by the New York A.G. This trial is being held to find out exactly how much they will have to pay in damages.

CNN's Kara Scannell is outside the courtroom for us. Kara, what can we expect to hear today? And why is Donald Trump going today?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Sara. So, this will be Donald Trump's ninth appearance at the civil fraud trial where he is accused of inflating the value of his properties to get better rates on his bank loans and insurance.

Now, he has not attended this trial in a month. And the last time he was here was when he was on the stand testifying when he was called by the New York Attorney General's Office. So, now his defense is in the home stretch. He will be here today. And here, their final expert witness is going to be a professor of accounting from New York University.

And part of Trump's defense in this case is that the values that they came up with for these properties all complied with accounting rules. So, he will be here to listen to this testimony, important testimony to his defense because they are saying that there was no intent to do anything wrong, no intent to deceive anyone and no intent to inflate the value of these assets.

But, you know, it's interesting that he's coming today because the gag order in this case that prevents him from making any comments about the judge's staff is still in place after where there were some legal challenges. And one of the last times Trump was here, he violated that gag order by statements he made in the hallway, which is lined with cameras.

So, he will be here. He did not participate in the GOP debate last night, but he often does speak to the cameras. So, we'll see what he has to say today.

And as you noted, this case is wrapping up. Trump will be the final witness when he takes the stand in his own defense on Monday. And from there, then this will go quiet for a while. This case is before a judge. He will then hear arguments on this in January and then make a decision on the final outcome of this case early next year. Sara?

SIDNER: All right. Kara Scannell, thank you for all those details.

John, as you know, the debate happened last night, and Donald Trump can say plenty of things when he goes into court. We should probably expect that.

BERMAN: No, that's a really good point. There's a political reason for Trump to show up today. There are microphones there, and this will be his first chance to comment on the debate last night. But there are also legal reasons for him to be there.

With us now, CNN Senior Legal Analyst and former Federal and State Prosecutor Elie Honig.

Let's leave the politics aside, Elie, legally. This is a few days before Trump himself will take the stand for the defense. What does that mean and what might we see?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, John, I think Donald Trump, if we get to the substance of the case here, is going to try to make a couple points when he takes a stand. First of all, I think he's going to extol the virtues of the Trump Organization. I think we'll hear him talking about how the company was built, how many people it employs, how much it pays in taxes, and I think that goes to the damages point that Kara mentioned.

Let's remember, Letitia James is seeking not just $250 million, but she's seeking to put this business out of business for good. And I think this will go to his lawyer's argument that you should not do that, that that's not a good thing for the taxpayers and the people of New York or more broadly.

I also think we will see Donald Trump try to lend some support to this no victim defense, to the idea that the banks that were making loans, and we've seen witnesses from some of those banks, they were happy to make these loans.

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They didn't rely heavily on these numbers that the Trump Organization submitted. And not only did they make the loans to Trump Organization willingly, they got repaid with interest, hence Trump's team will argue there's no real victims here and they shouldn't be found liable for some of the outstanding counts here.

BERMAN: Now we've seen Trump on the stand before. He was a witness for the state the first time around. And during that testimony, there were fireworks back and forth between the judge and Trump, and how much of that do you think we'll see this time?

HONIG: We will see fireworks, I feel safe predicting that. But just know that the order here, the procedure is actually going to be reversed. Because this time, his own lawyers, his defense lawyers are putting him on the stand, meaning the first thing we're going to see is direct examination, Trump being questioned by his own lawyers that will probably be more friendly than the other way around. But when they're done, the A.G.'s office will have a chance to cross-examine Donald Trump. We'll definitely see fireworks, and we could see fireworks at any point in this.

Donald Trump is inherently unpredictable, but the procedural order is going to be reversed from last time.

BERMAN: Kara noted that the gag order is still in place. What impact will that have, again, as we're waiting for Donald Trump to arrive there, in terms of framing or maybe guard-railing what he can say there and inside court?

HONIG: Important to keep in mind, John, this is a very, very narrow gag order that's now been reviewed by the appellate court and upheld. It should be the easiest thing in the world for Donald Trump to comply with the gag order. All he has to do is not comment about the court staff, the clerks, the deputies. He is free under this gag order to comment negatively, aggressively about the judge, about the A.G.'s office, about the merits of the case against him.

So, as long as he can restrain himself from making comments about the clerks and the deputies, he won't get in any trouble with the gag order. Whether he can do that, I'm not going to vouch for it. He certainly continue to go back to that sore spot over and over. We'll see if he continues to press his luck when he goes back into court today or Monday.

BERMAN: So, Kara noted that the judge will rule on this case in January. The judge has already ruled on one part of it, finding Donald Trump and the corporation liable for fraud. So, what are the decisions that -- has left to make, and what key evidence that we've heard may sway him one way or the other?

HONIG: So, it's important to understand there are seven causes of action here similar to -- it's not a criminal case, but in a criminal case, we will call them counts here. This is a civil case, they're causes of action.

The judge has already ruled for the A.G. and against Donald Trump on the first of those causes of action for repetitive and persistent fraud. But there are six other outstanding remaining causes of action. So, the judge will have to render verdicts for or against Donald Trump or the A.G. on those six remaining causes of action.

And also the judge will decide the key question of damages. And that's really going to be two different ideas. First of all, how much money does Donald Trump and the Trump Organization have to pay? The A.G. is seeking $250 million. The judge can award that much or less in his discretion.

And then there's the question of what happens to the Trump Organization's business certificates, which are necessary for it to continue conducting business? The judge can suspend those. He can revoke those or he can decide not to.

So, those are the issues that are still in place, still very important issues for the judge to resolve.

BERMAN: All right. We did just see some cars moving around Trump Tower. So, it's possible that Donald Trump headed down to the courthouse shortly. Again, we could hear from him in front of those microphones. It could be a political moment, not about this trial itself, but it could be about last night's debate. We're waiting to see that.

On a separate matter, Elie, while I have you, the House has called Hunter Biden to testify in the impeachment inquiry. Hunter Biden has said he would testify publicly, but not behind closed doors in a deposition. Now, House Republicans say they will move to hold him in contempt. Talk to us about this, how difficult that might be for them to win.

HONIG: Yes. So, James Comer, the House Oversight Committee chair Republican Party, has really gotten played here. He's played himself into a corner. Let me explain how.

So, James Comer serves as subpoena on Hunter Biden, who's the focus so far of this investigation, saying, we demand your testimony, but behind closed doors, confidentially, not in front of the public. Hunter Biden and his team, I think, smartly respond, he's happy to testify, but in public, for everyone to see on camera.

And Representative Comer then responds and says, no, I don't want you testifying publicly. I only want you confidentially. I mean, who's got something to hide here? Now, Comer is saying, okay, if you don't testify privately, I might hold you in contempt. [09:10:03]

Now, Representative Comer and the House of Representatives do have the power to hold Hunter Biden in contempt. It will take a majority vote ultimately of the full House. If that happens then, John, it goes over to DOJ, which will decide whether or not to prosecute the case for contempt. Recently, we've seen Steve Bannon, Peter Navarro prosecuted for contempt of Congress, others not prosecuted. There is a 0 percent chance DOJ will criminally prosecute Hunter Biden or any person for contempt of Congress, when that person's position is, I'm willing to testify publicly. That will not happen.

So, if there's a contempt finding here, John, it will be symbolic and that's all.

BERMAN: Elie Honig, thank you very much for all of this.

And, again, we should know we are waiting for Donald Trump's arrival at this courthouse in New York City, waiting to hear what he says, not just about this case where he's already been found liable for fraud and where he will testify next week, but also the debate last night, his first chance to comment on the debate that he skipped. Kate?

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right.

Coming up also for us, new word on the possible motive of the man who opened fire on the UNLV campus, three people were murdered, another still in the hospital. The UNLV student who was there is our guest.

Plus, Nikki Haley slapped down Vivek Ramaswamy, Ron DeSantis and his attacks on Nikki Haley, not Trump. Chris Christie yet again alone and taking on the frontrunner. Last night's debate and what it means today in the Republican primary.

This morning, the IDF says that they've encircled the home of one of the masterminds of the October 7th attack and we're getting new evidence of five other Hamas commanders that Israel says they have killed.

We'll be back.

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BERMAN: All right. Happening now, Donald Trump is on the move. We saw his motorcade leave Trump Tower. And any minute, he will arrive at this courthouse in Manhattan for his $250 million civil fraud trial where he's already been found liable for fraud.

Now, if Trump holds true to form, he will make a campaign speech on the way in. This will be his first chance to comment publicly about the debate he did not attend last night where his main opponents largely ignored him.

There are now just 39 days to go until Iowa, and according to the latest national poll Donald Trump is ahead of his rivals by 40 points.

So, the question now, are we seeing new evidence this morning that anything in this latest debate did anything to change that? Did Vivek Ramaswamy espousing fringe conspiracy theories do anything to change that? Did Chris Christie throttling Vivek Ramaswamy do anything to change that? Did Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley going back and forth do anything to change that? Did the few tempered and hedged mentions of Trump, except for Chris Christie, do anything to change that?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do I think he was kidding when he said he was a dictator? All you have to do is look at the history. His conduct is unacceptable. He's unfit.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is not a job for somebody that's pushing 80. We need somebody that's younger.

NIKKI HALEY, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You can't defeat Democrat chaos with Republican chaos, and that's what Donald Trump gives us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right we have fresh reaction to all of this, this morning. CNN's Jeff Zeleny is in Tuscaloosa. Jeff picking up the pieces for us, what are you hearing?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, John, good morning. You almost need a Venn Diagram to go through all of the alliances and the attacks that were flying last night. But one thing was clear, Nikki Haley, the former South Carolina governor, she was at the center of the majority of the attacks, particularly from Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.

Of course, she is in his way. She's had a rise in the previous debates over the fall months. And now, last night she receded a bit from that. Her advisers say it by design.

But take a listen to some of the criticism being leveled at her from around the room.

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VIVEK RAMASWAMY, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The only person more fascist than the Biden regime now is Nikki Haley.

Nikki, I don't have a woman problem. You have a corruption problem. And I think that that's what people need to know. Nikki is corrupt.

DESANTIS: She caves. Anytime the left comes after, she will cave to the donor. She will not stand up for you.

HALEY: First of all, he's mad because those Wall Street donors used to support him and now they support me.

And I love all the attention, fellows. Thank you for that.

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ZELENY: She loves the attention. The question is how will voters sort of absorb all of that from last night?

The one candidate who did not fire any arrows or many at Nikki Haley was Chris Christie, the former New Jersey governor. But both of those are also headed on the collision course in New Hampshire, which, of course, is a primary where independent voters, moderate voters, both of those candidates are looking for those.

But the bottom line to all of this is there was very little new information conveyed at the debate last night. If you've been paying attention to the campaign, as it's been going along, the one thing to keep in mind, many voters are just tuning in.

So, it was Ron DeSantis who was really trying to get his conservative record and message across. That is very music to the ears of some Iowa evangelical voters. It was Nikki Haley who was trying to stay above the fray intentionally, trying to show that she is indeed presidential.

But as we see Donald Trump heading to a courtroom in New York, it reminds all of us that his legal cases now are part of this campaign as well. That's the argument Chris Christie was making, that he could be a felon come next year. But he was very frustrated most of the Republican rivals on stage barely mentioned him at all. John?

BERMAN: All right. Jeff Zeleny for us in Tuscaloosa, a great reminder, Trump is heading to that Manhattan court right now. We will hear from him shortly.

BOLDUAN: Joining us right now is Terry Sullivan, who is campaign manager for Marco Rubio's presidential run, also founding partner of Firehouse Strategies, and former Republican Governor of Wisconsin Scott Walker.

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Gentlemen, here are my questions today about last night. What was the moment of most impact? What was the moment that had campaign teams essentially shaking their heads?

First, to our beloved debate, truthsayer and Republican primary cynic, Terry Sullivan. Terry, I asked you what you thought the moment of most impact was, and you say?

TERRY SULLIVAN, PARTNER, FIREHOUSE STRATEGIES: The moment Donald Trump decide not to show up to the debates. I mean, look, it dictated how everything went. It turns out it was a very smart move for him. I don't even know if there'll be any more debates, but it really doesn't matter if there are, because no one's engaging him. And it's made for kind of an abysmal showing by these other candidates. There's a reason why they're 40 points behind him. BOLDUAN: Governor, you said that Ron DeSantis had a strong night, maybe the strongest night, if I'm reading into your words. If Donald Trump -- and you said if Donald Trump wasn't in the race, this debate could have catapulted him. Tell me more.

FMR. GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI): Yes, I think there's no doubt about it. He had a good one-two punch the last few weeks between, I think, was a positive reaction from primary voters for his head-to-head with Gavin Newsom, the governor of California. And then last night, he really had a chance to put more attention than I've seen thus far in debates on his really positive conservative record in Florida.

But as Terry just alluded to, none of the candidates on the stage in Bama last night were able to counter the lead that the guy who lives north of Boca has in these polls. And until they can chip away, it is exactly as Terry says, it's really his to lose, and I still don't see anything on that debate stage that really chips away at that lead in those early states.

BOLDUAN: It's really starting, and I think maybe it's been this way all along. Donald Trump is going to have to do something to lose support. And you're going to have to come up with what that is versus someone on that debate stage or in the field doing something to chip away at him.

So, when it comes, Terry, to the moment that had campaigns, any of them, shaking their heads, you said it was the moment when Chris Christie came to Nikki Haley's defense after Ramaswamy was attacking her over -- as he said, Ramaswamy was attacking her basic intellect. Let me play a portion of that defense and then we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIE: If you want to disagree on issues, that's fine, and Nikki and I disagree on some issues. But I'll tell you this, I've known her for 12 years, which is longer than he's even started to vote in a Republican primary.

And while we disagree about some issues, and we disagree about who should be president of the United States, what we don't disagree on is this is a smart, accomplished woman, you should stop insulting her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: So, Terry, Chris Christie was on scene on this morning, and he said that inferring any tactical motivation from that moment, taking anything from that other than that it was just sincerity, is cynical and wrong. What do you think?

SULLIVAN: Yes. Look, they share the same base, Nikki Haley and Chris Christie, and that's GOP donors. And so the reality is, is that both of them are likely to be going to those same donors looking for a job in just a few short weeks. So, they're going to play nice. They don't want to alienate those donors. And that's just the reality of it for those two. And, you know, from a campaign standpoint, it is perplexing as to why these folks -- you know, they are competing for the same base in New Hampshire as well. I mean, only one of them gets out of New Hampshire alive if they both get to New Hampshire.

And, you know -- and I agree with the governor very much that DeSantis actually had his strongest night last night. And, you know, if Donald Trump gets hit by a meteor, Ron DeSantis is the clear frontrunner. But that may not happen. The governor -- we've been waiting since 2015 for there to be something that happens with Trump from a standpoint of, well, he's got a -- look, it just came -- Donald Trump was right in 2015 when he said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue in New York and he wouldn't lose support, and it's just the case.

BOLDUAN: So, Governor, when it comes to Nikki Haley, I mean, it was very clear that she was at the center of the stage, really, and she was the center of the attacks, because she's really gained a lot of momentum from the other debates. Her campaign team actually was telling reporters, Jeff Zeleny, said ahead of the debate, that she was going to show that she's presidential. Did that happen? Was it successful?

WALKER: Well, I think she certainly came in with that approach. And we saw it in that first debate months ago in Milwaukee where she elevated her candidacy by her performance, particularly by the pushback, remember back in that debate, against Vivek Rameshwamy, where she said he didn't have any real understanding of foreign policy.

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And it showed she's been progressively getting better in the debates. And I think that's what's attracted the attention of a lot of the donor class.

Unfortunately, for her last night, all the attacks were directed at her. And I thought one of the surprising moments was when she countered and went back after Governor DeSantis attacked him on a law that he signed and actually used a phrase that is most frequently used by those on the left. That was surprising to me in terms of voters. But to Terry's point, it might be somewhat appealing to at least some of the donor class.

BOLDUAN: Terry, a hot take from Chris Christie on what -- I mean, he clearly is just showing his disdain for Vivek Ramaswamy was that I think the way he put it was he's like a drunk driver on the debate stage. Is that how you see it?

SULLIVAN: Yes. Look, I think both of those two are in a competition to see who can find more Republican primary voters to dislike them. And it's a close race between the two of them, because their negatives after every debate in amongst Republican primary voters, their negatives keep going up.

And that's not really the objective on the campaigns I've been on is to really drive up your negatives that way. And so I'm not sure what they're trying to do fighting each other in the single digits and taking potshots, but it's just -- it's not helping them.

BOLDUAN: Sometimes when you've got a microphone and you really don't like the other person, that's just the only motivation that there really is. It's good to see you guys. Thank you so much. Sara?

SIDNER: All right. Still ahead, we are going to hear from one of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas students who was forced to hide yesterday as he's listening to gunshots go off on a campus where three people were killed and one person injured.

And a strong warning from the White House on Russia after the Senate failed to advance a funding bill that helps aid Ukraine's fight in that war. That's ahead.

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