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University Presidents Under Fire; Republican Presidential Debate Fallout; Trump Attends Civil Fraud Trial. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired December 07, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:01:34]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Right now, Donald Trump is in court. He's preparing to take the stand to be the star witness for the defense next week, but going in to be an observer today, not staying quiet.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Yes, what can we tell this morning from the fallout of the Republican debate last night? And what did Trump have to say about it in court today?

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: And a gunman kills three people on the UNLV campus. New details about the suspect, who we have learned was a former professor.

I'm Sara Sidner, with John Berman and Kate Bolduan. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BOLDUAN: Right now, Donald Trump is sitting in on his civil fraud trial in New York, an observer today, and preparing to take the stand again himself on Monday.

But he's not staying quiet, attacking the case, the attorney general, and declaring victory before he even entered the courtroom today. On the line, Donald Trump's brand and his business empire as he faces a penalty of up to $250 million.

Let's get over to CNN's Brynn Gingras, She's been following it all. She's outside the courtroom for us this morning.

What has been happening today?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate, remember, it's the judge who's going to decide what those penalties will be at the very end of this.

We are at the end of this, this New York civil fraud trial going on for about two months. This is the last full week of testimony. And as you just laid out there, the former president will take the stand, is expected to take the stand on Monday.

But, right now, he is seated at the defense table, a defendant in this lawsuit. And he's listening in on testimony from an NYU accounting professor, who is expected to really just back up these claims from the defense that Trump and his co-defendants didn't violate any accounting principles or rules when filling out those financial statement of condition.

Now, remember, the New York attorney general has said that Trump and his sons and Trump Org, they intentionally inflated the value of their assets in order to get better bank loans and interest rates, so the defense really trying to counter that central argument to this case.

But we did hear from the former president, as we often do, before he headed into the courtroom. I want you to hear a little bit of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (R) AND CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a witch-hunt, and it's a very corrupt trial. If you look at the case, we did nothing wrong.

There were no victims. The bank loves us. The bank testified. They love us. We did absolutely nothing wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: And Trump making some of those claims we have heard from him before, that there is no merit to the case.

It's important to note, guys, that the New York attorney general, Letitia James, she is not in the courtroom today. She usually is when the former president is there. But she did send out a tweet after he made these remarks.

I want to read some of it to you. It says: "Donald Trump engaged in years of financial fraud and enriched himself and his family. We have already proven the massive scale of his fraud. No matter how much he lies, the facts don't."

As I said, this case is wrapping up with Trump taking the stand on Monday. We will wait and see if he has anything more to say when he leaves the courtroom for the breaks, but a quick reminder, guys. He has to be careful about what he says to those cameras, because that gag order, which he has violated twice, which says that he cannot speak ill of anyone on the judge's staff, that is still in effect, guys.

[11:05:08]

BOLDUAN: Brynn Gingras, thank you so much -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right, the question right now: Did Donald Trump's Republican rivals do enough at last -- in last night's debate to put a dent in his dominating 2024 lead over them? And is there enough time for any real change or chance for that to happen before the Iowa caucus, which, by the way, is in just 39 days?

Today, while Trump is in court, two of his rivals are in Iowa. Nikki Haley arrives there tomorrow and Chris Christie is spending time in New Hampshire. This is after he lodged the loudest attacks against Donald Trump after the debate, at one point saying, bottom line, Trump is unfit, something he repeatedly pressed Governor DeSantis to do himself.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Is he fit? Is he fit? No. Is he fit or isn't he?

(CROSSTALK)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have your thing.

(CROSSTALK)

CHRISTIE: No, I don't have my thing. He's the thing.

(CROSSTALK)

CHRISTIE: You're talking about him being 80 years old. Ron, is he fit?

(CROSSTALK)

DESANTIS: We should not nominate somebody who's almost 80 years old.

CHRISTIE: He won't answer. He's afraid to answer.

DESANTIS: No, I'm not.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CHRISTIE: He's -- no, you have...

DESANTIS: No.

CHRISTIE: Either you're afraid or you're not listening.

DESANTIS: No, it's not.

(CROSSTALK)

CHRISTIE: There's a simple question here. Is he fit?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: A lot of yelling there.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is in Tuscaloosa, where the debate took place.

Jeff, that was a fiery exchange between them screaming over each other. But there were a lot more. There were a lot of jabs, most of them actually at Nikki Haley. Walk us through it all.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Sara, it's a lot quieter here today, the day after that debate. But certainly all of those exchanges and what they mean and may not

mean are still resonating as these candidates head back to the campaign trail. You said Ron DeSantis making a beeline to Iowa. And here's why. He was really trying to -- when he wasn't sort of in a back-and-forth with Chris Christie, was trying to remind voters of his conservative record in Florida, remind voters why he was at one time seen as the leading alternative to Donald Trump.

Of course, he's struggled throughout the year. But as the year ends here, he is on a bit of an upswing himself. And I would say it was one of the strongest debate performances he had. But it was Nikki Haley who was standing center stage, taking all the incoming. Of course, she has really capitalized on her climb throughout the course of these debates here.

So, last night, she was standing, taking all -- a lot of criticism from her newfound support in donors, her position on China, and much more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VIVEK RAMASWAMY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The only person more fascist than the Biden regime now is Nikki Haley.

Nikki, I don't have a woman problem. You have a corruption problem. And I think that's what people need to know. Nikki is corrupt.

DESANTIS: She caves. Any time the left comes after her, she will cave to the donors. She will not stand up for you.

NIKKI HALEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: First of all, he's mad because those Wall Street donors used to support him, and now they support me. And I love all the attention fellows. Thank you for that

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: She loves the attention. We will see how voters sort of react to all of this.

But there's no doubt she was trying to be a little bit more presidential, a little more strategic in terms of how she was pushing back at some of this criticism.

But, boy, it certainly was a lot, Sara. But, again, it's important how voters viewed this debate more importantly than ever.

SIDNER: Exactly.

And I do want to ask you how you sort of see this as the caucuses are coming up in a mere 39 days and Iowa is going to make some decisions. How do you think they're taking all of this?

ZELENY: Well, look, we got a glimpse of it last night, certainly not scientific, but certainly a sample.

Our colleague Gary Tuchman has been in Nevada, Iowa -- it's a town in Central Iowa -- for every one of the debates talking to some of the same people and others about how they viewed the performance on stage last night. This is very instructive, of course, to what the next about five-and-a-half weeks of the campaign could be like. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRETT BARKER, IOWA REPUBLICAN VOTER: Well, clearly, lately, she's been the one with the momentum, so I expected her to take a lot of hits tonight. And the debate started with them coming after her. And I think she handled it really well.

I think she also just is strong on policy and she just is strong in these debates, and I think that's been a consistent part of her momentum is, she's been a strong debater.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Judy?

JUDY HANDSAKER, IOWA REPUBLICAN VOTER: I agree with Brett that she had to dodge a lot of bullets tonight, and she stood up to each one of them.

TUCHMAN: Why do you think DeSantis won?

DEBORAH STONER, IOWA REPUBLICAN VOTER: I think he's got executive experience and a record of winning, and that's going to be the most important thing in a primary and then in a general election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So what that clearly shows is, there are some fans for DeSantis, some fans for Haley, but they're also competing, perhaps, a bigger point, with fans of Donald Trump.

[11:10:00]

And that is the conundrum for both of them. Is there space for both of these candidates as they go forward into the final weeks here? And the reason it matters is, if Donald Trump has a big victory in Iowa, is there a rationale for them to go forward?

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Voters, of course, have not yet voted. They will on January 15 in Iowa. And this is the (AUDIO GAP) going into the -- what's almost the final stretch here of the campaign.

SIDNER: Absolutely. Jeff Zeleny, thank you. Appreciate it -- John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now, Sarah Matthews, former deputy press secretary in the Trump White House, and Matt Lewis, conservative writer and senior columnist for The Daily Beast.

So, Sarah, as Donald Trump was walking into the courtroom today, he was asked by reporters gathered there to comment on the debate last night. Of course, he did not attend. He was asked what he thought about the debate. He chose not to answer at all. What does that tell you?

SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I mean, he has made a strategic decision to not participate in any of these debates. And I think him not commenting today is a strategic decision.

And it's showing that he thinks that the other candidates are the J.V. squad and that he is still dominant in the polls and there's no reason for him to engage or give any oxygen to them. And I think he's probably right. Obviously, right now, the polling shows that he's way ahead of them in all of the early states.

And I think that, in order for anyone to effectively challenge him, the field needs to narrow considerably and we need to have one alternative to him. But, right now, it seems like none of those folks on the stage last night are going to be dropping out and rallying around one alternative.

And so it made sense for him to not engage or take the bait today.

ZELENY: Matt Lewis, you wrote a piece overnight where you said you thought Chris Christie had his best debate, kind of but, dot, dot, dot. Talk to me about what you thought.

MATT LEWIS, THE DAILY BEAST: Right.

Well, look, I mean, Christie is obviously a very talented politician. Sadly, I think he probably missed his window for the president, which would have, I think, been in 2012. But I think he played a major role possibly in this race.

I think we would all concede this is Donald Trump's race to lose. He is by far the front-runner. But the way that someone could win would be win Iowa, win New Hampshire, get momentum going, and then eventually the national polls would follow.

So it's a long shot, but that's the way somebody could possibly wrest control of the nomination from Trump. I think Nikki Haley is probably the most likely person to be able to pull that off, partly because she's ahead, well, not ahead of Trump, but ahead of the field and New Hampshire. Coming out of that, she'd be going into her home state of South Carolina.

But I think she had a rough night last night. She was obviously targeted. She was fending off a lot of attacks. And I think it was Chris Christie who not only had a strong debate performance in his own right. I think Chris Christie bailed out Nikki Haley and really served, I think -- as the way that the Vivek Ramaswamy has been running you're sort of helping Donald Trump this whole time, I think that Chris Christie filled that role for Nikki Haley last night.

BERMAN: Sarah, what about Vivek Ramaswamy, who at one point lists off this litany of fringe conspiracy theories that I'm not even going to bother to repeat right now, to which, frankly, neither the moderators nor his opponents on stage bothered to say anything at all? What do you think about that? MATTHEWS: Yes, I mean, the conspiracy theories that he was promoting

were things like January 6 being an inside job, the 2020 election being stolen, the Great Replacement Theory, something that multiple mass shooters have cited in their manifestos.

I mean, it was pathetic, it was disgusting, and I was really disappointed that the moderators did not call him out on those things. And it was just a clear attempt by Vivek to pander to the far right. And he's done this throughout his whole campaign, and I think this just proves that he's a very unserious candidate and he's not fit to be anywhere near the Oval Office.

BERMAN: Matt Lewis, you say Nikki Haley had maybe her toughest night last night on a debate stage. So what does she need to do between now and January 15, which is Iowa?

LEWIS: I think she has to have a -- between now and then, I think she has to get out there on the hustings.

I mean, she has to be in Iowa, in New Hampshire. She has to do what I think she is doing, which is raising a lot of money. And I think she did enough in the debate to -- I think she did what she had to do. What did she have to do? She had to have a good enough debate that she is still seen as the runner-up to Donald Trump.

I mean, it's possible that DeSantis could have supplanted her last night. If DeSantis had had a great night and, frankly, I think if Christie hadn't bailed out Nikki Haley -- I mean, do you remember there was that point where Vivek Ramaswamy was trying to get her to name the three provinces in Ukraine?

[11:15:06]

And she was sort of, like, blanking at the camera. I mean, I think it was a bogus kind of gotcha question to begin with, but it was Chris Christie who I think interrupted what could have been a really rough moment or an embarrassing moment for Nikki Haley.

I think she did enough to stay the runner-up to Donald Trump, a distant second place, and she just has to now perform. She asked to win Iowa or New Hampshire and springboard into South Carolina.

BERMAN: All right, Matt Lewis, Sarah Matthews, thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it -- Sara.

SIDNER: Just in the last half-hour or so, we learned the University of Pennsylvania Board of Trustees is now holding an emergency meeting. Its president is facing calls to resign after what's being called her disastrous testimony on campus antisemitism.

We will talk all about it with the CEO of the Anti-Defamation League next.

Plus, another community terrorized and traumatized after a mass shooting, three people killed, one in the hospital after a gunman opened fire on the UNLV campus.

The latest on the investigation into that shooting is coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:20:59]

SIDNER: Happening right now, the Board of Trustees at the University of Pennsylvania is holding an emergency meeting as the school's president, Liz Magill, faces growing criticism over her testimony on Capitol Hill this week about antisemitism on campus.

She and the presidents of Harvard and MIT are facing some major backlash from business -- from the business world to the White House after failing to unequivocally condemn calls for genocide against Jews in Israel during their testimony.

CNN's Matt Egan is joining us now.

Matt, what do we know about what is happening and what this meeting is really focusing on?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Sara, I'm told that this is a gathering of the Board of Trustees at the University of Pennsylvania being held up virtually.

It began a little over two hours ago. And we don't know for sure whether or not the fate of Penn president Liz Magill is going to be discussed during this meeting. But you got to believe that is the elephant in the room, because this meeting is occurring just about 24 hours after the governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, condemned Liz Magill's testimony on Capitol Hill, and he called for just this.

He called for a meeting of the Board of Trustees to try to decide whether or not that testimony lives up to the values of the school and the board. Now, we have heard intense criticism towards not just Magill, but also the presidents of MIT and Harvard, after Tuesday's hearing.

We heard from the billionaire, hedge fund billionaire Bill Ackman, calling for all three to resign. Private equity billionaire and Penn alum Marc Rowan similarly stepping up his campaign. Albert Bourla, the CEO of Pfizer, he went on X yesterday and he called it one of the -- quote -- "most despicable moments in the history of U.S. academia."

And even the White House press secretary weighed in from the podium yesterday making it clear that there is no room for genocide. So, Sara, we're going to continue to follow the fallout from that hearing and this ongoing meeting at Penn with the Board of Trustees.

SIDNER: Yes, literally everyone else was able to make it clear that you cannot use those words, genocide, against Jews without consequences, except for these three university presidents.

All right, thank you so much, Matt Egan, for all of your reporting on this and that update -- Kate. BOLDUAN: And let's talk more about the fallout from that appearance on Capitol Hill this week, reactions like they should resign in disgrace and reflecting moral bankruptcy. That is from billionaire hedge fund manager Bill Ackman, a major Harvard donor.

Absolutely shameful, that is from the current governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. And here's an example of what happened that's led up to all of this, when the university presidents were asked in the hearing about genocide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ MAGILL, PRESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: It is a context- dependent decision, Congresswoman.

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): It's a context-dependent decision? That's your testimony today? Calling for the genocide of Jews is depending upon the context? That is not bullying or harassment?

This is the easiest question to answer yes, Ms. Magill. Yes or no?

MAGILL: It can be, depending on the context.

STEFANIK: What's the context?

MAGILL: Targeted as an individual -- targeted at an individual.

(CROSSTALK)

STEFANIK: It's targeted at Jewish students, Jewish individuals.

Do you understand your testimony is dehumanizing them? Do you understand that dehumanization is part of antisemitism?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Joining us now is the CEO and national director of the Anti- Defamation League, Jonathan Greenblatt.

Jonathan, when you saw that moment, what was your reaction?

JONATHAN GREENBLATT, CEO AND NATIONAL DIRECTOR, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Well, I think it was catastrophic, but also clarifying, Kate.

I have heard from dozens and dozens of Jewish students in just the past few weeks, let alone the past two months, about feeling literally unsafe on campus, considering moving out of the dorms altogether, considering leaving and transferring out of the universities altogether, because they have told me at Ivy League schools that they don't feel safe.

[11:25:13]

Well, guess what? Now we know why, because they are not, because their college presidents with their Ph.D.s and fancy degrees fail to do the basics that a third teacher understands, which is, you keep all of your students safe.

And so I must say, I mean, just this week, we had an incident in Columbia yesterday, where these students held a teaching that had previously been banned by the administration celebrating the -- quote, unquote -- "October 7 counteroffensive," they called it, the rape and murder and beheading of Jews.

Like, why have no students been suspended? And we saw at MIT that she testified, of course, on Tuesday -- yesterday, for the second day in a row, while the students were in the Hillel, one -- another student outside pounded on the windows to get their attention, made obscene gesture, then urinated on the building in broad sight.

Why has the student not been expelled? And so when we have presidents -- and I got to say, I saw the Liz Magill video last night.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

GREENBLATT: It looked like a hostage film, like she was speaking under duress.

I understand why the governor of Pennsylvania, I understand why so many of the trustees don't have confidence in her. I don't have confidence anymore that Penn is capable under this leadership of getting it right.

BOLDUAN: And that's what I wanted to ask you. You have got this emergency meeting of the Board of Trustees happening at Penn. Does the ADL have a position these calls for resignation?

GREENBLATT: Well, before Tuesday, we didn't

But when I watched these presidents flail and feebly with legalish answers respond to a simple line of questioning, I have got to say, we have lost confidence in them. Now, let me be honest, Kate. We have worked with -- I have spoken to president Magill. I have spoken to president Gay. We are ready to help these institutions to get it right, but it is not clear to me that these leaders are actually deeply committed to doing so.

And, again, I don't care what you say.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Let me ask the flip of this. How are they getting this so wrong? Like, why are they getting this so wrong? How and why?

(CROSSTALK)

GREENBLATT: Well, look, I think we need to recognize the poison of anti-Zionism has so infected these institutions. They think it's a political speech to call for the murder of students on their campus.

They think it's actually protected expression to incite violence against others. I mean, Kate, we can ask ourselves, how many students at Penn have been suspended for chanting "From the river to the sea," from chanting "Globalize intifada"?

And at Penn just this weekend, Kate, one of these mobs started on campus. It went off campus to vandalize Jewish-owned businesses. I mean, I am worried, Kate, that there will be violence, real violence, a mass casualty event, if these leaders don't find their moral core.

And if they can't find it, Kate, then we need to find new leaders, including at Penn.

BOLDUAN: Look, these are two top academic institutions. They're not the only colleges and universities in the country, and everyone clearly needs to learn from this moment.

Have universities been reaching out to the ADL? What does leadership look like here, if what you saw on -- in that congressional hearing is not?

GREENBLATT: I mean, look, in some ways, this is pretty basic. It's not just about reading, writing, and arithmetic. It's also about right and wrong.

Calls to genocide are never context-dependent. They are always contemptible. They are always violation of a code of conduct. And if they're not, Kate, then you better rewrite your code of conduct, OK? It is in a world in which, literally, as Director Wray said earlier this week, hate crimes are up more than 60 percent in the last two months, mostly against Jewish people.

And, by the way, this isn't just Israelis. Can I point that out, Kate? These are Americans who were also raped and tortured and mutilated. These are Americans who were kidnapped and sexually brutalized and being held hostage right now.

This is an American problem. And so, again, when university presidents can't call out the murder of Americans, they dither and they equivocate, look, I mean, there are steps they could take. They could adopt the IHRA definition of antisemitism. They could review and actually enforce their own codes of conduct and suspend the bad offenders.

[11:30:00]