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Air Force Disciplines 15 Over Intelligence Leak On Discord; Ukrainian President Zelensky's Plea For Aid In Washington Amid Political Standoff; Biden Faces Challenges As Polls Show Concerns In Key Battleground States; Giuliani Trial Begins: Defamation Case With Georgia Election Workers. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 11, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Plus, the Air Force has disciplined more than a dozen people in connection with intelligent leaks from an Air National Guardsman. We've got some new details on that investigation and the national security implications.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And new CNN polling from two key battleground states spelling trouble for President Biden. And while Donald Trump's lead in Iowa grows, the numbers show he may have an Achilles heel. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

BROWN: At the top of the hour, we continue to follow breaking news and an extraordinary request by Special Counsel Jack Smith, who has asked the Supreme Court to decide whether former President Donald Trump has immunity from prosecution for alleged crimes he committed while in office. Now, this would be the first time that the high court could weigh in on the historic prosecution of the former president. Joining us now is CNN Senior Supreme Court Analyst Joan Biskupic and CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid. So, Paula, this seems like a pretty aggressive move from the special counsel. What's the play here?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right, Pamela. This is the first time the special counsel, Jack Smith, has gone to the Supreme Court and he is asking it to decide whether former President Trump is immune from criminal prosecution. That is a constitutional question that has never been decided. But really what's at stake here is the timing of Trump's first criminal trial. And Trump has been litigating this issue of immunity. He lost at the district court level. He signalled that he would appeal.

The next stop would usually be the Court of Appeals. He'd go before three appellate judges. If you don't like that outcome, you can try to go before the entire circuit. If you don't like what happened there, then you go to the Supreme Court. But the special counsel is just asking the Supreme Court to skip those intermediary steps and just take up the issue now. Because that is a process, right? Going to the appellate court, then going through the Supreme Court appeals process, that could take months. Potentially even a year, and that could delay Trump's first criminal trial, which is right now scheduled for March of next year, until after the 2024 election. So, the special counsel is arguing it is in the public interest to just decide this issue now so the trial can go on as scheduled.

They're citing precedent from the Nixon-Watergate investigation where the Supreme Court was able to decide key issues very quickly. Now, Pamela, the big question is what will the Supreme Court do? Will they take up this issue? Because the special counsel even gave them an out. They said, look, even if you don't want to take it up, could you at least tell the appellate court to move this along quickly so we can get this decided by the end of the term, which is, of course, usually in June.

BROWN: That's right. And, of course, the special counsel wants the trial to go on in March. The special counsel arguing in this filing, Joan, that Trump shouldn't have immunity but is asking the Supreme Court to give him, you know, to make that decision. Tell us more about the argument the special counsel is using here.

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Sure. In fact, this really does bring us back to 1974 with an equally weighty question involving President Nixon when he was trying to withhold the Watergate tapes from a U.S. District Court proceeding, a criminal proceeding. And the justices handled that case in 16 days from oral arguments to actual ruling. And we know what happened to Richard Nixon after that. You know, a few weeks after that, he ended up having to step down from office.

But what Jack Smith has done here, Pamela, is actually invoked the Watergate precedent for two reasons. One, to say how significant the question is about, in this case, a former president, not a sitting president, a former president being immune from these proceedings. And also, to say you did it before on an expedited schedule. You can do it again. So really kind of a two-pronged approach. And asking, you know, today is December 11th. Asking that the Trump lawyers get a response to the Supreme Court by December 18th.

And the Jack Smith team has said they'll even waive some of the usual 14-day waiting period to file their own reply after the Trump team files just so that they can quickly get all the materials before the justices, have the justices grant this petition for this unusual relief and hear the case quickly. And I actually think that this is a strong enough request that the justices might be interested in doing it. Or, you know, it's a tough question. But it's going to ultimately have to be resolved by the Supreme Court. And with that March 4th trial date looming, why not put it on a fast track here, Pamela?

Yeah. I mean, this is huge. High stakes. It's weighty. It's a first of its kind. So, we'll have to wait and see. What the Supreme Court decides to do, whether to even decide on it, kick it back to the lower court. And there's lots of looming questions here. Joan Biskupic, Paula Reid, thank you so much. Boris.

[14:05:29]

SANCHEZ: We've got some new polling showing us a snapshot of where the 2024 race stands right now. And there are new concerns for President Biden. This fresh CNN polling shows him losing ground to Donald Trump in two key battleground states. In Georgia, the president trails Trump by five points among registered voters. It's a state Biden narrowly won in 2020. In Michigan, where Biden beat Trump by a wider margin, the former president now has a 10-point edge. The polling also found just 39 percent of voters in Georgia approve of Biden's job performance. That number dwindles down to 35 percent among registered voters in Michigan. Majorities, meantime, in both states say that his policies have actually worsened economic conditions in the country.

Let's turn now to CNN's MJ Lee, who's live for us at the White House. MJ, President Biden is making a campaign stop in Pennsylvania. His team is brushing off this latest round of poll numbers. How's the president responding?

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Boris, we are getting sort of the typical official campaign response from the Biden campaign, basically saying that they're not reading into individual polls at this moment, that we are still about a year out from Election Day, that this is not the time really to start reading into any of these numbers or data points. An important context here on both of these polls that you're talking about, Michigan and Georgia are states that the president not only won last time around, obviously very critical battleground states, but these are two states that the president was able to flip from red to blue. And that is why there is so much attention on these two states in particular.

And even despite the campaign trying to sort of dismiss some of these latest polls, it is important to note a couple of details that should serve as serious warnings for the Biden campaign. In both of these states, we see the majority of voters are saying that the president's policies have hurt the economy. We are seeing in both of these states, again, majority of voters saying that they take issue with the president's age, questioning his stamina and his sharpness. And then in both of these states, we see the president having trouble with younger voters. They are breaking for Trump in hypothetical matchups between the president and the former president, Donald Trump.

And all of these areas that I just mentioned, Boris, are areas where the president himself is trying to address the problem. And so, I think that's a big part of this. And I think that's a big part of this. address and work on. You see the president there making sort of the economic pitch. That's something that the White House has consistently tried to sort of sell during the first term of his presidency. And then sort of addressing the question about his age, his sharpness, and of course, trying to keep that younger coalition together, which has only been complicated in recent months by the war that we have seen between Israel and Hamas, as younger people are consistently calling for a ceasefire, which is not a position that the administration is taking right now.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, to that point, MJ, several people detained outside the White House today protesting for a ceasefire in Gaza. MJ Lee, live from 1600 Pennsylvania. Thanks so much. Let's expand the conversation now with Michael LaRosa. He's a former special assistant to President Biden. We also have with us Republican strategist and former RNC communications director Doug High. Michael, Doug, great to be with you both. Let's start, Michael, with the big numbers, just in context. Georgia, Biden trailing by about 5%. Michigan, 10%. MJ mentioned the decline with younger voters. Should alarm bells be going off in the White House on Biden's campaign right now?

MICHAEL LAROSA, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: I think so. I think, well, you called it a snapshot, and it is a snapshot in time. But I think it would be different if it was an anomaly. And this seems like a trend, whether it's national polling or state-by-state polling. So, the best candidates, the best campaigns usually acknowledge they had a problem, and they fix it before it's too late.

I think on the other side of this, though, is keeping in mind that incumbency is messy. It's not just about being a candidate. Governing is unpopular inherently. Making decisions is unpopular. And so, the frustrations that people feel, and I think they're probably real, as I saw on that poll, whether it's the economy or whether it's with young people, I think those frustrations are real. And, you know, they're going to park those frustrations with Joe Biden for now. But as Mitt Romney said yesterday, this campaign will be about character, because we can survive bad policy. We probably can't survive bad character, or it makes it very hard to survive. And that's what this campaign will come down to.

SANCHEZ: We are still 11. months out, and we've seen incumbents rebound from ugly numbers to start the election year before. Doug, there's a fascinating wrinkle in this polling, and I want to bring up this graphic, because it really illustrates two different challenges for each of these candidates. First, with Trump, folks who did not cast a ballot in 2020 favor the former president by big margins. Look at that, 26 points in Georgia, 40 in Michigan. Trump's challenge would be essentially to get out voters that are historically disengaged, something that he can do in 2016. My question is, why is he so good at getting these historically disengaged voters, and how does he get them out next year?

[14:10:29]

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they've been disillusioned by this process and what we've seen in everything in Washington, not just over the past four years or eight years, but really now for generations. They feel left out and left behind. And when Donald Trump said about Hillary Clinton, he says her signage says I'm with her. Well, I'm with you. That was a powerful message to those voters who came out for the first time in 16, potentially in 24 as well. Well, and I'll tell you one number in this that to me was not a snapshot was the 7% that thought that as MJ referenced, didn't have that Biden doesn't have the strength or stamina to be president.

It took me back to my second campaign ever, 1992, where Locke Faircloth beat the incumbent Terry Sanford, former governor, North Carolina legend, who every voter said he's too old. His time has passed. And it's why we won that race in a year that was not good for Republicans. This is one thing the Biden campaign can't fix. Maybe in a year or two, it's going to be a year where we're going to have a race that's going to inflation goes away and we might see some prices come down. Maybe there'll be more approval on what he's doing with foreign policy. But he's every bit of 81 today. He's going to be every bit of 82 next year. LAROSA: And to Doug's point, the one number that stood out to me was

the temperament number for Donald Trump. And it has gone up in Michigan since since four years ago in the according to the exit polls from 2020. It's up four points. So that tells me you're not going to win this race by selling Joe Biden or his accomplishments. I love him. And I love his I love his policy. I'm not the rest of America, though. That's why they need to start disqualifying the other side today. And that involves making this a referendum, not about Trump or his record, but about good versus bad, why he is bad for this country, why he's a bad person. And that's where Joe Biden has a strength. And that number shows that.

SANCHEZ: That's a refrain we've heard often from Biden. Don't compare me to the almighty. Compare me to the alternative. Right.

HEYE: And Trump thinks he is the almighty.

SANCHEZ: That's the challenge. Fair point. Doug, the interesting thing to me is that for Joe Biden, it speaks to some of what Michael is touching on because it appears that he's holding on to fewer of his backers from 2020. A lot of voters have become a bit disenchanted with him. And to your point about age, he's not getting any younger. Conversely, though, the temperament question with Trump appears to be somewhat serious because folks have essentially said in the polling that if these allegations about him trying to subvert the 2020 election is proven in court, they might take away their support. So that is an Achilles heel for him.

HEYE: A conviction for Trump would be an absolute Achilles heel. It's obviously not something that Biden, the Democrats can depend on. But it's part of that narrative of Trump being the not stable, not genius that he's always pretended himself to be as they move -- Push forward in the campaign. SANCHEZ: How do you see that polling, Michael, when you look at that,

some 47%, nearly identical, 47% in Georgia, 46% say that if the charges against Trump regarding the effort to overturn the 2020 election proved true, they wouldn't see him as a viable candidate for president.

LAROSA: I don't think any of those numbers matter because I think Trump's the people that support Trump will love him no matter what. The cake is already baked. And that's why the campaign, the Biden campaign needs to start prosecuting the case on Donald Trump as a human being and not focusing on the economy or the president's accomplishments, because that's how that's not how you're going to win people over.

SANHEZ: Doug mentioned foreign policy potentially calming down as we get closer to November 2024. But right now, there does appear to be a rift among young voters in the Democratic Party. Take a look at this polling, a major split over Israel, half nearly half of voters younger than 45 have issues with the way that the White House is providing aid to Israel amid its attempt to eradicate Hamas from Gaza. How much of an impact can that be on Biden's chances?

LAROSA: So, I have to look at this through politics because I'm not a foreign policy expert. But what I would say is that the president needs to start communicating empathy and, you know, his propensity for violence that young people are really concerned with and to also communicate why it's important to fight -- that we destroy groups like Hamas. That they are a terrorist organization, and he needs to explain the difference and explain why it's in our best interest that we are, that Israel destroys Hamas. But at the same time, demonstrating empathy for innocent civilians killed on both sides.

SANCHEZ: Doug, one final question to you, a number that really alarmed me. Only six in 10 of those polled in Georgia and Michigan believe that the 2020 election was legitimately won by Joe Biden. That number sinks to depressing levels when you ask Republicans. Only two in 10 say that Biden won legitimately. So essentially you have eight in 10 of Republicans that were asked in this poll whether the 2020 election was legit who say it wasn't. Did how do you anticipate that skepticism is going to play into the next election?

HEYE: I think especially in Georgia, it's a very real issue. It's part of why Republicans lost two Senate seats is because Donald Trump was telling his voters that you can't count on these polls. You can't count on your vote being counted. Don't mail them in. Don't show up on the runoff date. That was a problem for those specific candidates, certainly a problem for Trump in 20. It's one of the reasons that while he's leading in Georgia right now, nothing is secure until that vote is done.

[14:15:39]

That was a problem for those specific candidates, certainly a problem for Trump in 20. It's one of the reasons that while he's leading in Georgia right now, nothing is secure until that vote is done.

LAROSA: If this is a two-person race, if this is about Donald Trump versus Joe Biden, Joe Biden will win, will win comfortably. If it's a choice beyond those two, then that's where it's uncertain.

SANCHEZ: A long time to go, but we appreciate the expertise, the perspective on this snapshot right now. Michael LaRosa, Doug Heye. Thanks so much for joining us.

HEYE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Still to come on News Central, the Air Force has disciplined over a dozen people over the National Intelligence League on the social media platform Discord. We have details on that. Plus, an in-person plea, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky visiting the nation's capital, pleading with Congress to get his country aid. And later, cleanup underway right now after tornadoes rip up homes and kill several people in Tennessee. We have a live report in just moments. Stay with us.

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[14:20:02]

BROWN: The Air Force is now disciplining 15 people connected to the massive intelligence leak on the social media platform Discord. That's the site where 21-year-old Air National Guardsman Jack Teixeira is accused of posting a trove of highly classified military documents. He has pleaded not guilty to the charges. Let's bring in CNN's Natasha Bertrand at the Pentagon. Natasha, what are you learning about the Air Force's investigation and who's now facing punishment?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICER: Yeah, Pam, well, the Air Force, over the course of several months, investigating this incident, they identified a number of failures that led Jack Teixeira, this 21-year-old airman, to be able to continue posting this classified information online really without anyone noticing for nearly a year. And 15 people have been disciplined as a result of this, including commanders who were in his unit, one of whom, or I should say two of them at least, were removed from their positions. And ultimately what the Air Force found is that there was simply a lack of accountability at large in terms of the red flags and the warning signs that Jack Teixeira was emitting over the course of several months in 2022.

He apparently began, according to this Air Force report, posting information about these classified documents online on that Discord app as early as February of 2022. And throughout the course of that year, he was observed accessing intelligence at his Massachusetts Air National Guard base and he was not supposed to be able to access. Essentially, that was not necessary to his job as an IT specialist. And all of these incidents were observed by his superiors, or several of them were observed by his superiors, I should say. And they were basically not escalated up the chain of command beyond really the squadron level in a way that would have raised more concern among more senior security officials.

And in one pretty striking quote from this report, the Air Force says that based on the preponderance of the evidence gathered during the investigation, three individuals in Teixeira's unit who understood their duty to report specific information regarding his intelligence- seeking and insider threat indicators to security officials intentionally failed to do so. And according to this report, that is because they were simply worried that leadership would, quote, overreact. So, there were a lot of missed signals here.

But ultimately, the Air National Guard, they are making changes, they say, to try to prevent this from happening again. But the damage really was so extensive. It is one of the biggest leaks of classified information in U.S. history, Pam.

BROWN: It certainly was. Natasha Bertrand, thank you. Boris.

SANCHEZ: A pivotal trip to Washington for Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. The White House says that tomorrow's scheduled visit comes at a critical time in Ukraine's fight against the Russian invasion. Support in Congress is split, meaning that urgent military aid that Ukraine desperately needs is tied up in the politics of Capitol Hill. Republicans want to pair any additional Ukraine aid packages with broader changes to the U.S. immigration system, something that Democrats have been unwilling to do at this stage of negotiations. Zelensky is set to make his pitch, meeting with Senators, House

Speaker Mike Johnson, and President Biden on Tuesday. And with just days remaining to negotiate before Congress leaves for the holiday recess, time for Zelensky is running out. Joining us now is Washington Post columnist Josh Rogin. Josh, thanks so much for being with us this afternoon. Let's start with the stakes here for Zelensky. What does it mean for Ukraine if they don't get aid from the United States soon? And then what does it mean for the United States in the broader context?

JOSH ROGIN, THE WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST: Right, well, Boris, it seems pretty clear, based on my sources, that Congress is most likely to leave town at the end of this week without passing additional funding for Ukraine. Over the weekend, according to my sources, there's been no movement between Republicans and Democrats who are negotiating these border policies and Republicans are maintaining their position that the Biden administration can't agree to. What that means is that Zelensky is coming to town and he's walking into a buzzsaw. He's basically coming here to be essentially rejected.

The most likely scenario is that he's going to meet with all of these people, go on TV with President Biden, and leave empty-handed, which is really the worst-case scenario, if you think about it, because then he's got to go back to Kiev and explain to people why the help is not coming. And the consequences in the States could not be higher for the Ukrainians who are facing a cold winter, a barrage of Russian missiles and bombs that will target their energy infrastructure to leave their people freezing without electricity or heat, and no salaries to pay the doctors, no ammunitions for the air defense systems.

And this all plays directly into Vladimir Putin's hands. But at this point, I don't really think that there's a very high chance that that's going to be avoided, at least, not avoided by anything that's going to be able to tell Senate Republicans tomorrow.

[14:25:09]

SANCHEZ: So, Josh, let's dig into the objections from Republicans. They argue that the Biden administration doesn't have a clear end game for Ukraine. They also argue that there's vast corruption and not enough accounting of where every dollar in Ukraine aid actually goes. Are those valid concerns?

ROGIN: Right. Well, I'd say there's two different types of Republicans making those concerns. There are those Republicans that are making those concerns in good faith. And then there are those Republicans who are making those concerns in bad faith. In other words, the concerns themselves are valid. But that doesn't mean that Republicans are willing to negotiate to a position where they can ally those concerns. And it certainly doesn't mean that anything that the Biden administration or President Zelensky could tell people like Speaker Johnson is going to convince them magically that all of a sudden everything's OK. So, yes, there's corruption. And yes, there's a lot of money going out the door. And it's hard to keep track of it all.

But to be honest, I don't think the Biden administration, there's anything that they could say to a lot of these Republicans that's going to change their mind at all. So, I think what's about to happen is that they're going to make their best attempt to answer these concerns by saying what we already know, which is that the war is over when the Ukrainians decide they've taken back enough territory that they can negotiate from a position of strength. And that they're increasing the oversight of the money, but it's not perfect because it's the war. And again, I think that for those Republicans who want to be, you know, convinced that that that that everything is terrible. That's the message that message that they're going to draw. And there's really no magic words that Zelensky is going to say to Speaker Johnson that's going to make him think, oh, OK, I feel much better now.

SANCHEZ: So, Josh, if Ukraine aid is a nonstarter on Capitol Hill. What options does the Biden administration have, perhaps unilaterally or through allies in Europe to get Ukraine some measure of aid?

ROGIN: Right. Well, you know, I wrote a column for The Washington Post saying that the Biden administration has several things that it can still do in its power to get them as much aid as possible with the money and time they have left. But it's a very bleak picture. And, you know, there's no doubt that Ukrainian leaders are expecting that if the United States pulls its aid. And they're expecting that Europe will soon follow suit. And there's no doubt that it's a matter of weeks, maybe a couple of months before they'll run out of the critical things, they need to defend themselves. And then a lot more people will die, and the Russian forces will advance.

So, I think we're out of time. Really, I think the Ukrainians are out of options. I think the Biden administration is out of levers that they can pull to make this thing a - OK. And, you know, there's really only two choices here. Either. We're going to give them the money they need to survive and keep fighting and defending themselves or we're not. And most of that power lies in the hands of Speaker Johnson, the Senate Republicans in there. It's not looking good or it's just not looking good at all.

SANCHEZ: Josh Rogin, always appreciate the perspective.

ROGIN: Any time.

SANCHEZ: Of course, happening right now, jury selection in the trial that will determine just how much money Rudy Giuliani is going to have to pay to two Georgia election workers that he defamed. Details on that in just moments.

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