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Zelenskyy Meets With Senators in Bid to Break Ukraine Aid Deadlock; Soon, House Rules Committee Votes on Biden Impeachment Inquiry; Soon, Santos Appears in Court With Plea Deal Talks Now Underway. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 12, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Any minute now, we could hear from the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He has been meeting behind closed doors with U.S. senators pleading for new aid. And we just have learned that one Republican walked out of the meeting early. So, what does that tell us?

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: There is a lot going on on the Hill right now. Also happening right now, the House Rules Committee gearing up to gavel in, Republicans locking down votes to get the support they need for a Biden impeachment inquiry, a vote could come up any time.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And we are closely watching a federal courthouse in New York where expelled former Congressman George Santos is expected to soon show up while we are learning new details about a possibly plea deal he could be is seeking.

I'm Kate Bolduan with Sara Sidner and John Berman. This is CNN News Central.

BERMAN: And breaking this morning, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is behind closed doors with the U.S. senators at this moment pleading for new money to fight Vladimir Putin. He says the money is crucial for Ukrainian survival, and right now, it is being held up by U.S. politics. He could come out to speak any minute now. We are keeping a close eye on that. And we just learned that a Republican senator walked out of this meeting early.

CNN's Manu Raju is watching this on Capitol Hill. J.D. Vance, couldn't bothered to stay the whole time, Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he did walk out and he said his mind hasn't been changed. Vance is one of those skeptics, Ukraine skeptics, who is opposed to providing more aid to Ukraine. A handful of other senators decided not to go to the meeting because of their opposition for aid to Ukraine.

But Zelenskyy has have a very high hurdle to clear here in order to convince Republicans in particular to green light aid to Ukraine amid a separate dispute, this dispute over about changing immigration laws to deal with the migrant crisis at the southern border with Mexico. Republicans want a deal on immigration first before they agree to more aid to Ukraine.

So, even as Zelenskyy is making this pitch, we don't expect many minds to be changed, the includes the chief negotiator on the issue of immigration, James Langford, who I just caught up with and asked him about this very issue, whether or not Zelenskyy, if he asked to punt on immigration, would they be amenable to moving forward on Ukraine, he said no.

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RAJU: So, this as can you just provide Ukraine aid, could you punt on immigration and approve?

SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): No, no, no. Again, we have a responsibility in the United States of America. That would be going back to my home state and saying I care about people in another countries but I don't care what's happening in my own country. It's important that we actually do two things at once.

We've got to actually pay attention to our own needs while we're also dealing with the needs around the world as well.

There's no way to get it down this way. There is no way to be able to get it down this way?

RAJU: So, you think this is going into 2024?

LANKFORD: I'd love to be able to see it resolved sooner than that. But if we can't get to a resolution on this, this will actually go into 2024 until we can actually get it resolved.

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RAJU: Now, senators are starting to trickle out of this meeting, giving early read about what happened. And Zelenskyy did make some remarks, took some questions for senators. According to Senator Thom Tillis, he got a, quote, warm reception, and he discussed the resources that he needs to win the war.

He did address some questions that were raised by senators about potential corruption in Ukraine, about whether U.S. dollars were being used to, say, buy yachts and the like. Zelenskyy addressed those concerns, we're told head on.

But the concern for Zelenskyy is this debate over immigration, about whether a deal can be reached, an ominous sign for him and supporters for Ukraiine aid. Speaker Johnson, who Zelenskyy will meet with in a matter of moments, said earlier this morning that he would be prepared to send the House home for the Christmas holiday if there is -- there is this deal in the Senate over immigration is nowhere within reach.

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He said, what am I'm going to do? Have House members twiddle their thumbs while waiting for the Senate to act here?

So, despite the pleas for urgent action now, the reality is that this could very well wait into next year. The question is what does it mean for the future of Ukraine.

BERMAN: Manu, there's a microphone setup behind you where President Zelenskyy after the meeting breaks up. He can walk and perhaps take questions. We will come back to you the minute that we have eyes on the Ukrainian leader, Manu. Thank you very much for that. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Keeping a close watch on that and also keeping a close watch on the House Rules Committee, because any moment now, the committee is going to get moving to vote on formalizing an impeachment inquiry into President Biden.

Now, this investigation into Biden really centers around the business dealings of a son, Hunter, and that investigation has been going on in Congress and the House by Republicans for months already. Now, with this step, the push by House Republicans will gain strength and power.

CNN's Lauren Fox tracking this, she's back with us.

Lauren, the House Rules Committee, I was told by the control room, they just gaveled in, what is going to happen here?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we expect that the House Rules Committee will approve this moving forward. But what is significant is what happens on the floor tomorrow when this comes up for a vote. The question, of course, are House Republicans going to be 100 percent unified behind this move to launch officially an impeachment inquiry.

If you remember, this was announced earlier this fall by then-House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. He announced that he was opening an impeachment inquiry into President Joe Biden. This is a step that essentially formalizes this by having a vote.

In many ways, it doesn't change the underlying work that these three committees have been doing. But on the other hand, it does send a signal that Republicans are united behind this effort.

I do want to distinguish, though, that House Republicans might be open to voting for an impeachment inquiry because in the minds of some of those who were skeptical before, they believe that this might be an effort and a way to get more information from the Biden administration, from the White House. And they want to continue working through and getting the information that they need for their inquiry.

But on the other hand, you have a lot of Republicans who are still arguing that this is different than a vote to impeach Joe Biden. And many of those Republicans who are running in swing districts still say that they have to get more evidence, they have to understand a close tie between the president and that money that was coming from foreign governments. They want to see a direct tie that has not been established yet. And I think that that is a key difference here between an impeachment inquiry and a vote to impeach President Biden.

Tomorrow, of course, will be that vote on the impeachment inquiry. But, Kate, again, the question is, at the end of this investigation, what do Republicans do then? Kate?

BOLDUAN: What do they do? What do they find or not find? But we do know one thing. That's far out. We do know today, this whole effort is going to gain some new steam with this vote and then tomorrow with the vote on the floor.

It's good to see you, Lauren. Thank you. Sara?

SIDNER: All right. CNN Legal Analyst and former House Judiciary Special Counsel, our Norm Eisen is here to talk through this. I am so happy to see you this morning, Norm. You always bring the heat.

What do you see as the biggest issue with this particular impeachment inquiry?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sara, thanks for having me back. The biggest issue with this impeachment inquiry is that after years of looking, including an intense investigation since Republicans took over the House of Representatives, there is no evidence of Joe Biden engaging in any financial or other impropriety that would give rise to an impeachment or even an impeachment inquiry.

The Republicans are making claims about Biden's involvement in pressing for the ouster of a corrupt prosecutor in Ukraine. But, Sara, we looked at that in the first Trump impeachment. There's no there, there, and many authorities have said so. They're claiming payments were illegitimate, but they turn out to be loans or the president making payments for his son's truck. There simply is no connection of Joe Biden to any wrongdoing, therefore, no basis for an impeachment or even an inquiry.

SIDNER: But, Norm, Republicans say that look, we're on a fact-finding mission and the impeachment inquiry is how we are going to get to the facts. Does that make sense to you?

EISEN: It doesn't because the nature of impeachment is that you have got to have some predicate, some indication of wrongdoing to even have an inquiry. That's the reason that Kevin McCarthy was not able to put an inquiry on the floor for a vote.

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He simply declared that they were going to have an inquiry. And I think in particular for those 17 members of the House of Representatives from districts that voted for Joe Biden, this is a very uncomfortable vote. That's the reason for the delay, because not just Democrats or partisans, but independent observers and even Republican members, like Congressman Ken Bucks say, there's no connection of Joe Biden to any wrongdoing. How can you open an inquiry if there's absolutely no showing of any wrongdoing after intense investigation?

SIDNER: So, I wanted to talk to you about, because I noticed something in looking at the language, the language of this potential impeachment inquiry is almost verbatim, the same kind of language used for the inquiry into Donald Trump back in 2019 with one glaring difference. The GOP version today leaves out language mandating that the investigation be transparent. What does that say about this inquiry?

EISEN: Well, I think it's an unfortunate omission. The transparency is an essential part of looking at what they're doing. To me, it allows the inference that the House Republicans don't want people to see behind the curtain to have that full transparency because they've found no basis to open an impeachment inquiry.

I mean, consider the contrast with 2019 when you had a whistleblower later proven to be correct, saying that Donald Trump had shaken down Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, by coincidence in Congress today, shaken him down by withholding almost $300 million desperately needed U.S. aid. There's nothing like that here.

If you can open a government inquiry based on nothing, whatsoever, Sara, they can say we're going to open one into you or into me or into anyone. That is not the United States of America. You need some indication of wrongdoing, not complete goose eggs. That's all Republicans have here, and that's why they don't want transparency.

SIDNER: Norm Eisen spoken plainly and clearly here on CNC this morning, thank you so much. John?

BERMAN: Expelled former Congressman George Santos just arrived at court. We know he is now speaking with federal prosecutors ahead of his pending fraud trial. Could a plea deal be on the horizon?

New developments surrounding the disappearance of jailed Vladimir Putin critic, Alexey Navalny, and Israel opens another boarding crossing to Gaza, as it says it has uncovered new Hamas weapon stashes.

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BOLDUAN: Moments ago, expelled Congressman George Santos arrived at a federal court in New York. He's attending a status hearing as a new court filing reveals that he's in talks with prosecutors about a possible plea deal.

CNN's Brynn Gingras has more.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, guys. 23 federal charges is what the former congressman is facing. Among those, remember, he's accused of stealing from his own donors in order to enrich his own life and his own personal lifestyle.

Now, today is just a status conference hearing. In the past, what we have seen at these is the prosecutors turning over just pages and pages of evidence, some of which have been emails and text messages that prosecutors say implicate the former congressman. So, we expect more of that exchange of documents today.

However, in court paperwork that was filed yesterday, prosecutors hinted that they want to strike a deal. They asked for another status conference hearing in 30 days, saying that the hope is -- the goal, rather, is resolving this matter without the need for a trial.

And, actually, George Santos hinted at this himself when he spoke to our local affiliate, WCBS. Take a listen.

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FMR. REP. GEORGE SANTOS (R-NY): The plea is not off the table. So, there're obviously conversations taking place, especially after what happened in Congress.

I think everybody should be afraid of going to jail. It's not a pretty place. And I definitely want to work very hard to avoid that as best as possible.

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GINGRAS: And keep in mind, Santos' former campaign treasurer, his campaign fundraiser have struck deals with prosecutors on charges that they were facing, so it's very possible that a deal is imminent. So, we'll keep an eye out for that.

This hearing getting started later this morning in just a little bit, and we are waiting to see if Santos himself actually speaks to us, so we'll keep you posted.

Back to you guys.

BOLDUAN: All right. Brynn, thank you so much. John?

BERMAN: All right. This morning, Russian Opposition Leader Alexey Navalny is still missing from a Russian prison, and the White House wants answers. A spokesperson for Navalny said he was told by a prison employee that Navalny had, quote, left their colony but could not confirm where he is now. The White House says it is deeply concerned.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen for the very latest. Fred, what's the status here?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's completely unknown. And, you know, one of the things we have to point out, John, is how difficult it actually has been for Navalny's lawyers to get even that little bit of information from the Russian prison system and makes even more difficult for them to actually try and find Alexey Navalny.

Now, for the past two days, he was supposed to appear on a video link from the prison that he's supposed to be in, and the past two days he has not shown up.

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Now, originally, the people inside that prison had said that there were issues with the electricity, but then upon further questioning, they actually did admit yesterday that Alexey Navalny is no longer listed as being in that prison and today finally admitted that he had left that prison.

So, that's how far Alexey Navalny's lawyers have gotten now, that he has left that prison, but it's unclear where he actually is.

Now, we do know that Alexey Navalny was supposed to be transferred to another jail which has an even tougher regime than the one that he has been in so far. It's not unheard of for prisoners when they're in that process of being transferred to then completely get off comms, to not be allowed to communicate at all, and then to suddenly pop up in the new place. But, again, the lawyers don't know where exactly that place is and they don't know if it's even the case that he's been transferred. So, right now, the status is they simply don't know.

All this extremely concerning for the folks from Alexey Navalny's organization and, of course, also for his family as well. He has had some serious health issues in jail over the past couple of weeks. And his daughter Dasha Navalnaya, she spoke last night on AC360 and she said this.

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DASHA NAVALNAYA, ALEXEY NAVALNY'S DAUGHTER: If I were to get a message out to him, I don't know. I just want the people, not just him, but I want others to know that I have hope. And for other people to have hope that we can change the regime if we work together.

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PLEITGEN: So, there's Dasha Navalnaya saying she still has hope, but, of course, right now an extremely difficult situation for Alexey Navalny, extremely difficult also for his organization as well, as, at this point in time, they simply do not know where he is. Of course, again, it could be that there is some sort of transfer going on, but there could be something else as well, John.

BERMAN: All right, Fred Pleitgen on the plight of Russian democratic activist Alexey Navalny, and I will say, not completely unrelated. Fred, thank you.

You're looking at live pictures right now from Washington, D.C., where Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian president, just left a meeting with U.S senators. We saw him walk out with the Senate majority leader, Chuck Shumer, the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell. You can see him there in the back of the room right now walking down the hallway, chose not to speak to gathered reporters there.

Our Manu Raju was standing by for questions. Manu, what are you seeing?

RAJU: Yes. We didn't expect him along with Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell to talk to the press briefly after this, but deciding not to at that moment. We'll see if Zelenskyy comes back.

I saw him just walk down the hallway behind me, but he can walk towards the House in that direction and then that's where his next meetings are. He's going to meet with Hakeem Jefferies, the Democratic leader in the House, and then the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson.

So, it's uncertain if we're going to actually hear from President Zelenskyy addressing the press at this critical, critical moment.

But we did get a sense that -- from senators about some of the early readout about what happened in the room here. We were told that he talked about the border issue. That is the one thing that is holding up aid to Ukraine, and to deal with the U.S. border with Mexico and push for a deal that Republicans are insisting on should be dealt with first. We'll see.

Senator McConnell, Senator McConnell, did it change your approach? Did Zelenskyy's message change your approach at all?

So, we'll see -- Chuck Schumer is coming over here. We'll get a sense about whether he decides to address the press.

But one of the things that Zelenskyy, we're told, said in that room is that if you don't deal with Ukraine now, then there will be an influx of migrants from Ukraine coming to the United States because Ukraine may collapse.

We'll see what Schumer says.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): It was a very powerful meeting. President Zelenskyy made it so clear how he needs help. But if he gets the help, he can win this war. And he outlined in some great detail, A, the kind of help he needs and how it will help him win. Even many of our Republican colleagues talked about we are winning this war. And if we get the help that if he gets the help he needs, he will win.

On the other hand, he made it clear, and we all made it clear, that if we lose, Putin wins. And this will be very, very dangerous for the United States. So, we cannot let Putin influence through any surrogate what is what we need to do for Ukraine.

He also made one other point. He needs the aid quickly. If we don't give the aid quickly, several things will happen. First, the military needs, but, second, Europe and many other allies will say, what is going on here?

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They're not giving them the aid. Thank you.

RAJU: So, John, are you still with me here? You heard Chuck Schumer there saying the money needs to be dealt with immediately. But he didn't give a timeframe. That's been one of the major questions here about whether or not Congress can deal with this before they leave town for the year.

The White House has said it needs to be done this month. It needs to be done, otherwise Ukraine will be kneecapped.

I tried to ask Chuck Schumer there, is that the message in the room? Does it need to be dealt with this month? Because right now, there is no indication that Congress will reach a deal on that separate issue of immigration that Republicans are assisting on first before Ukraine aid can be approved. There is expectation it will be punted into next year.

What will happen if that situation does occur, which is widely expected in the Capitol? He just said that money needs to be approved quickly. What does quickly mean? That is a much different -- that's a debate, of course, in the Capitol because almost certainly this will wait. But the grave warnings Zelenskyy issued behind closed doors, Ukraine cannot fall and Ukraine is at risk of falling if the U.S. does not intervening with billions of more dollars in aid.

BERMAN: All right. Manu Raju, thank you very much. The Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, now on his way to the U.S. House of Representatives for what might be the more key meeting he has today with U.S. House Speaker Mike Johnson, who may be the individual most standing in the way right now of quick, immediate US aid to Ukraine.

With me now is former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine John Herbst. Also with us is retired U.S. Lieutantn General Mark Hertling.

Ambassador, let me just start with you. Volodymyr Zelenskyy at this point is actually a pretty seasoned politician. He's been through a lot. He knows that the aid to Ukraine right now is being held up by U.S. politics. Without judging what those U.S. politics are, it is U.S. politics holding up that aid. How does a foreign leader approach that?

JOHN E. HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: I think Zelenskyy, more perhaps than any leader in a long, long time, has been enmeshed in U.S. politics for reasons having nothing to do with him and his country. It happened under President Trump. It's happening now under President Biden. So, he's pretty savvy about this.

And I think he understands that while he desperately needs that aid, and American interests desperately need to send that aid, politics are in the way. This is unfortunate, but, sadly, it has to be dealt with. So, immigration has now become tied to Ukraine aid.

BERMAN: He mentioned, we are told, the border issues and said you're going to end up with more Ukrainian immigrants. Can Zelenskyy go in and basically say, hey, either separate the border issues or make a deal on the border and get me my money?

HERBST: I think Zelenskyy has to tread very carefully here, and I think he will. He will acknowledge that this is -- that there is a border question and he's not going to say, dealing, he's not going to say, fix it now, because he doesn't want to be seen as meddling in our politics.

At the same time, he's making the case a very good case, why we should support Ukraine, why it's in our interest. Because if Putin wins in Ukraine, we may well face him in one of our NATO allies, in which case, A, it will cost us a lot more money, and, B, American lives will be at stake.

BERMAN: General Hertling, there was a headline in The New York Times that struck me today, and I'm going to paraphrase it. It was essentially U.S. and Ukrainian leaders meet to discuss new plans after the failed Ukrainian counteroffensive. The word they used was the failed Ukrainian counteroffensive.

So, these meetings are happening at a time when Ukraine, you may not think it's failed, but certainly isn't making the progress it was hoping for in the counteroffensive. How do you change that?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, John. First, I would like to say that that use of the word, fail, in that article was totally unnecessary and incorrect, by the way. Ukraine has significantly gained back some of the territory that they lost from Russia. They did not gain all of their objective --

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