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Ukrainian President Zelenskyy's Plea For Aid Faces Congressional Standoff; GOP Senators Link Border Policy Changes To Ukraine Aid Deal; Hunter Biden's Showdown: House Republicans Insist On Closed-Door Deposition; Biden Warns Israel Losing World Support In Blunt Remarks On Gaza Conflict; Judge Rebukes Rudy Giuliani In Defamation Trial, Citing Additional Defamatory Remarks. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 12, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:43]

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN HOST: Right now, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is at the White House. He is meeting with President Biden in the middle of a fierce standoff in Congress over Ukraine aid. Now, Biden wants to send another $61 billion to Kyiv. The House Republicans won't sign off on more aid unless they get a series of immigration measures passed in return.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Now, earlier today, Zelenskyy met with members of the House and Senate to try and persuade them to try and change some minds. He argues this political deadlock is a dream come true for Vladimir Putin. Let's get to CNN's MJ Lee at the White House and Manu Raju, who's live for us on Capitol Hill. MJ, first to you, Biden and Zelenskyy essentially see eye to eye on the issue of military aid. So, what are they gonna try to get accomplished during this meeting?

MJ LEE, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: CNN Well, Boris, President Biden and President Zelensky may see eye to eye on this issue, but frankly, it's not up to them. It's up to Congress. And right now, what we're seeing on Capitol Hill is a total impasse over this issue of the supplemental package that includes some $60 billion of additional aid from the US to support Ukraine. And it seems very unlikely that anything on this front is going to get done before the end of the year.

Look, I think both leaders had hoped that this kind of highly symbolic and high-profile in-person visit from President Zelenskyy could help sway some of these Republican lawmakers who are very much set on making sure that border policy is attached to the supplemental package. It seems like that is not going to happen. But there's also sort of a broader goal as well to this visit, and that is sort of sending a message to the rest of the world, including Russia and President Vladimir Putin, that the world, the international coalition that backs Ukraine remains steadfast, supportive of the Ukrainian cause.

Now, President Biden and President Zelenskyy, of course, has met before. This was about a year ago at the White House. But it's incredibly notable just how much the politics around this issue has changed. And certainly not helping President Zelenskyy or President Biden is the fact that here at home, public opinion on this issue has shifted quite significantly as well.

SOLOMON: How much the politics have changed and also how much the reception has changed from his last visit. Manu, let me bring you in. I mean, you've been speaking with lawmakers on the Hill. I mean, what's your read on all of this? I mean, did Zelenskyy sway any GOP holdouts from what you can tell?

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, he hasn't. There are a lot of Republican senators who support what Zelenskyy said today, that there needs to be action on Ukraine, but they are still in the position that they were at the beginning of the day, which was there first needs to be a deal on handling the influx of migrants at the southern border with Mexico, changes to immigration policies to reduce the flow of immigrants before they can actually get a deal on Ukraine, before they would actually vote yes to approve Ukraine. So, you know, there's a lot of room that exists for Ukraine proponents still persist, despite Zelenskyy's pitch, urgent pleas behind closed doors.

And it's clear, even not just the detractors, there are Ukraine sceptics within the Senate and House GOP, but there are significant voices who are supporters of Ukraine, like Senators Lindsey Graham, Senator Mitt Romney, both of them indicating today, however, nothing will get accomplished unless there's a deal on immigration first.

[14:05:09]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I told Senator Murphy what he's saying is not helpful. And the policy choices made by the Biden administration for the last three years to let the border get out of control has bitten them in the ass. And we're not going to let it go any further.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): The reality is that the House is not going to take up a Ukraine bill unless it includes securing the border to the level that existed under the three prior presidents. That's what's going to have to happen. And if it does happen, why then there'll be a Ukraine vote. But absent that, the reality is it won't happen because the House won't let it happen. So that's just the way things are. When people elect a Republican majority in the House, you have to listen to what they have to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And Speaker Mike Johnson made that point as well. After his half an hour meeting with President Zelenskyy went to the microphones and indicated that there must be action on border security proposals that they had put forward, pointing the finger. At the Senate, pointing the finger at the White House. So even as Zelenskyy tried to unite Republicans and Democrats behind the Ukrainian cause, divisions over a separate issue hampering aid at the moment for now and potentially for the long term.

SANCHEZ: And in that deal, not only aid for Ukraine, but also aid to Israel and MJ, President Biden, dealing with that conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. We're learning the president also made some really blunt remarks about Benjamin Netanyahu, his government, and his lack of a desire for a two-state solution.

LEE: Yeah, these were blunt remarks for sure. Very noteworthy. The president telling donors just some moments ago that Israel is beginning to lose the world's support in terms of this war. You know, we have seen U.S. officials and senior members of the administration in recent weeks increasingly expressing their concerns about the way that Israel is conducting this war. Particularly when you're looking at the huge civilian death toll in the Gaza Strip and the massive amounts of destruction that we have seen. And the U.S. has said pretty explicitly that the way that Israel conducts its war in the south must look different than how it conducted its war in northern Gaza earlier on in the conflict.

And, you know, even last night, we heard the president basically warning Israel, look, public opinion when it comes to this war can change quickly. But today, it seems like for the first time and probably the most pointed remarks that he has given on this issue so far, the president confirming that Israel is, in fact, beginning to lose support on the war. The other thing that was incredibly noteworthy was the president saying that Netanyahu, prime minister of Israel, needed to change his government because it is too conservative and that it doesn't support a two-state solution.

This, of course, is a very strong signal that we are getting from the White House, from the president himself, that this administration at moment in time, is beginning to think in concrete terms about what the post-war Gaza governance should look like. And there are some major differences that we are already seeing between the U.S. and Israel on this issue. Of course, the war is now well into its third month. But again, just clear signals that the administration is starting to focus more and more on that issue.

SANCHEZ: MJ Lee from the White House, Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thank you both so much. We are also watching another important moment on Capitol Hill.

SOLOMON: The House Rules Committee is expected to reconvene at any moment now to determine if an impeachment inquiry into President Biden will get a full vote on the House floor. CNN's Lauren Fox watching the developments for us. So, Lauren, if in fact this passes through the committee, lay out exactly what happens next.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, we expect that this would then come to the floor of the House of Representatives tomorrow. And the Republican leadership has been working overtime to shore up support and ensure that Republicans are united in that vote to open an impeachment inquiry, officially. Now, there has already been an ongoing inquiry since former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy announced one in the fall. But this is a move that leadership is arguing and the speaker himself is arguing will have an impact and help them get more and more information that they need as part of their impeachment investigation. Here was the speaker earlier today.

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REP. MIKE JOHNSON, HOUSE SPEAKER (R): The impeachment inquiry is necessary now, as we've just explained, because we've come to this impasse. We're following the facts where they lead is hitting a stone wall because the White House is impeding that investigation now. They're not allowing witnesses to come forward and thousands of pages of documents. So, we have no choice to fulfill our constitutional responsibility. We have to take the next step. We're not making a political decision. It's not. It's a legal decision.

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FOX: And there are a lot of Republicans who are running in districts that Biden won in 2020, including Don Bacon, who told our colleague Haley Talbot earlier today, that just because the House votes to open this impeachment inquiry formally on the floor tomorrow does not mean that it is a foregone conclusion that they will have a vote to impeach President Biden.

[14:10:09]

I think that that is a really interesting distinction that a lot of republicans are making as they weigh what they're going to do tomorrow. But, again, leadership very optimistic that they're going to have the votes on the floor for this despite the fact that they have an incredibly narrow majority right now. Rahel, Boris.

SOLOMON: We will see. Lauren Fox, thank you. And let's actually stay with this story because ahead of a potential showdown on Capitol Hill, we have learned that Hunter Biden will be in Washington, D.C. tomorrow.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, remember, that is the day that House Republicans insisted that Hunter sit down behind closed doors for a deposition. Of course, the president's son has tried to argue this. He has tried to put his attorneys forward saying that he will only testify publicly. Let's bring in CNN's Paula Reid. So, Paula, what more are you learning?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I mean, this could be quite the showdown tomorrow. Here's what we know. Hunter Biden lives in California, but we know right now he is in Washington, D.C., and he will be here tomorrow, which is the date where House Republicans have demanded that he come in and sit for a closed-door deposition as part of their escalated impeachment inquiry. Now, Hunter Biden has said he's willing to answer questions, even though he now faces two criminal cases, but he wants to answer these questions publicly. His lawyers have said they're concerned if they sit behind closed doors that Republicans might, you know, selectively leak certain information to help their narrative.

Republicans, though, they rejected that request. They said, look, we want you. We insist that you sit behind closed doors first, and then maybe eventually we can do something publicly. And last we knew, there's just a stalemate. But our colleague on the Hill, Annie Greer (ph), says that Republicans, they are prepared for Hunter to possibly show up tomorrow among their preparations. Cameras are set up for the deposition. Now, that would not be for us to see. That would be for them. Lawyers have prepared hundreds of questions, but they haven't heard from Biden's legal team.

So, at this point, it's unclear if Hunter Biden is going to show up. But again, he's going to be in town. This could be quite the showdown if he does show up, because as of right now, there's no agreement as to whether this interview will take place. And if it does, publicly or behind closed doors.

SOLOMON: Paula, is there a time period in which he would have to respond by, or can he pretty much decide to show up until, this all kicks off tomorrow?

REID: It's a great question, because Republicans have said if he does not show up at his appointed time, which is at 9.30 Eastern time, that they will pursue contempt against him. But again, if he does potentially show up and offers to answer questions publicly, legally speaking, if you take it out of the political process, legally speaking, that's going to muddy the waters if they want to try to pursue some sort of criminal contempt against him.

Because he would argue, I said I'd answer questions. I just want to do it publicly. I showed up, maybe in a suit or whatever, right? I said I would do it. I would sit with you. But you were being too specific on the terms. So, we'll see what happens tomorrow. It is unclear if he's going to show up on the Hill and what is going to happen. But look, he's in town. They've got their questions in their cameras.

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SOLOMON: Oh, the suspense. Oh, the intrigue.

REID: I know I'm feeling the suspense.

SANCHEZ: Also unclear if they do decide to pursue contempt charges, say he doesn't show up, whether DOJ would then prosecute him.

REID: Yeah, I think DOJ might look at this particular set of facts and say, look, this isn't someone that just said, no way, Jose, right? This is not Peter Navarro or Steve Bannon. This is someone who said, okay, I'll work with you, even though I'm facing two now criminal cases. Before he was just facing one, now he faces two. But I want to do it publicly. And if he does show up, you know, that also helps their case in the criminal context. Politically, you know, those political votes on contempt, that's a different animal, we know. But when it comes to DOJ, they might look at this set of facts and be like, this is not what criminal contempt is meant for. So, it could just be an effort to muddy the waters. It's fascinating.

SANCHEZ: It is fascinating. A game of deposition chicken.

REID: I love it. I'd watch that.

SANCHEZ: Paula Reid, thank you so much. Still ahead, as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy pushes for critical aid in Washington, Republican lawmakers are digging in on changes to border policy as part of that deal. Next, we're going to discuss where things stand with a Republican senator.

SOLOMON: Also, the judge overseeing Rudy Giuliani's defamation trial, blasting the former New York City mayor in court today, saying that Giuliani made additional defamatory remarks about two Georgia election workers. We'll have it for you. Stay with CNN News Central. We'll be right back.

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[14:18:18]

SANCHEZ: We are monitoring the White House right now, where Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is about to sit down with President Biden yet again. The key topic: Will Ukraine get more aid from the United States? Now that Congress is at a standstill on the issue, Zelenskyy met with U.S. senators this morning, trying to persuade some Republican holdouts. We're joined now by Republican Senator Pete Ricketts of Nebraska. Senator Ricketts, thank you so much for being with us this afternoon. First, I want to get your reaction to President Zelenskyy's visit and if you think he did enough to persuade your colleagues that oppose sending more aid to Ukraine.

SEN. PETE RICKETTS (R -NE): Well, I think that he did a great job of talking about where we are in Ukraine right now and really saying that it's not the standstill that's portrayed in the media. If you look at what Ukraine's been able to do in the Black Sea and push the Russian fleet really back to the Republic of Georgia, how they've been able to open up their sea lanes to be able to ship grain, and what they've done with regard to energy independence. But at the end of the day, what this is really about is what the President is doing or not doing, in this case, about the border.

The President included as part of a supplemental package, and as Republicans, we want to see real policy changes at the border to slow down this huge crush of people that are coming across. You know, last week we had 12 000 people come across the border in one day, and my understanding is the President, and his team are just really now starting to get engaged on this. It needs to be a negotiation. We have divided government, and that's really what the process is going to have to play out to be able to get to a solution. SANCHEZ: I do want to get to questions about that border deal, but back to Ukraine and focusing on that. Zelensky has repeatedly said that victory for Ukraine entails retaking Crimea, but at this rate, the counter-offensive is not meeting expectations. It appears to be getting bogged down, and aid is not likely to come immediately before the end of the year. Do you think Ukraine should revisit what the endgame looks like?

[14:20:00]

RICKETTS: Well, I'm certainly not going to tell President Zelenskyy what he needs to do, but I can tell you that based upon the groups I've talked to, the Ukrainian people are very united around winning this war, and that means retaking the land that Russia has taken from them. They've taken half of it back already, and as I previously mentioned, they've made big progress in the Black Sea itself. I think what we need to do, again, is just get back to the negotiations on this bill so we can get them the weapons they need to continue this fight against a brutal dictator, Vladimir Putin.

SANCHEZ: So on the question of Vladimir Putin, he's seeing things very differently than Zelensky is. He believes that there is a stalemate now, and U.S. intelligence seems to believe that this, this winter is going to help, or rather, the Russians believe that this winter is going to help drain the West's support of Ukraine. He said this week that the West is losing the will to fight back against Russia. Seeing that some of your colleagues remain adamantly opposed to sending aid, do you think Vladimir Putin is right?

RICKETTS: I think Vladimir Putin is seriously underestimating, certainly doesn't understand what democracies are about. He misjudged. He thought he would be in Kiev in three days. He certainly was not. He's still not there two years later. He thought the West would not unify the way NATO has. And one of the things he doesn't understand about democracies is we're messy. You know, we have big groups of people we ought to get buy-in from. And so it's a process to do that.

And any of our allies who are democracies know that's true as well for their own issues. And this is just a process we have to go through in our democracy to work with our parties. We've got divided government. The Democrats are not in charge of everything, so they've got to compromise. And frankly, there is no deal without President Biden, and he needs to get direction. He needs to get directly engaged. The White House needs to engage on this to get a deal done so we can provide this aid to Ukraine, but also to Israel, to the Indo-Pacific, Taiwan. These are important issues, but the White House has got to be able to get involved and negotiate to get a deal done.

SANCHEZ: It does strike me, Senator, that about a year ago, Zelenskyy received a hero's welcome on Capitol Hill. It was almost unanimous. Very different reception this time. I'm wondering how much you think the 2024 election and Donald Trump's possible return to the White House are influencing the debate about Ukraine aid.

RICKETTS: Well, I'll tell you, actually, Boris, in our meeting today with the senators, he got a standing ovation on more than one occasion. He walked into the room, he got a standing ovation. So I think that there's broad bipartisan support, at least in the U.S. Senate, to be able to help out Ukraine. So, I don't know that the support is flagging. Certainly, there are some of my colleagues who are wondering about why are we giving more money to Ukraine when we haven't actually fixed our problems at the border. And that's a sentiment that the American people share.

And you can go look at the polling numbers on the president's job approval rating at the board and see that he is significantly underwater because of his poor handling of it. So, you know, Americans want to see our border problem fixed. And then we can start talking about how we can help Ukraine.

SANCHEZ: Senator, I do want to ask you about that immigration deal. I just spoke with your colleague, Senator Mark Kelly, about an hour ago, and he said that he believed that bundling the immigration issue, specific to policy, with the issue of aid to Ukraine is a mistake. Do you think the two need to be intertwined to get something done?

RICKETTS: Well, first of all, I think both Democrats and Republicans agree that we need to do something about our border. We can't just have 12,000 people come across the border and they get released into our country, at least the vast majority are getting released because Customs and Border Protection can't process them properly. So, I think with broad agreement we need to do that.

I think the other thing is that the president put the border in place. in his supplemental request. So, if it's a mistake, it's the president's mistake, because he put it in there. And the mistake the president is also making is he hasn't done anything about it in the three years he's been president. So, policy has to be a part of this. If we're going to get something done, policy has to be a part of it. Regardless if you think it's a mistake or not, the only way this gets done is if there are policy changes on the border.

SANCHEZ: I think the distinction the senator from Arizona was making is that there's a difference between just funding for border security and getting into the policy and rewriting asylum rules. Nevertheless, Senator Pete Ricketts, we have to leave the conversation there. We very much appreciate your time.

RICKETTS: Great, thank you.

SANCHEZ: Former New York Congressman George Santos, in federal court today, facing multiple criminal charges related to alleged fraud and campaign violations. Is he about to take a plea deal? Some new reporting on that. And a disturbing story out of Turkey. The president of a top-flight soccer club quitting after he punched a referee in the face during a match. Now, that referee you see on your screen is claiming that his life was threatened. More details when we come back.

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[14:29:24]

SANCHEZ: Passengers on a flight from Amsterdam bound for Detroit had a flight they will not soon forget. After spending a night in a remote Canadian military barracks because their Delta Airlines jet experienced mechanical issues.

SOLOMON: Yeah, let's bring in CNN's Pete Muntean. So, Pete, it sounds like they had quite the ordeal. What more are you learning?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The airport there in Goose Bay, Labrador, is called Happy Valley. Okay. Maybe there's a joke in that. Ironic. Because it was a bit of a nightmare scenario for these folks on this Delta flight. 135, it was Airbus A330 going from Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam to Detroit. But pretty quickly after they got over the North Atlantic there, you can see on the track from FlightAware, had a bit of an issue. They're over Labrador and had to turn back for the Goose Bay Airport.