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Biden, Zelenskyy Meet As Ukraine Aid Stalls In Congress; Rifts Between Biden And Netanyahu Spill Into Public View; Soon: House Rules CMTE Votes On Biden Impeachment Inquiry; Tonight: GOP Candidate Ron DeSantis Deadlines CNN Town Hall. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 12, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:06]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Moments ago we heard from President Biden as he's meeting with Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Zelenskyy is visiting Washington, D.C. pushing for more aid to Ukraine which Biden supports. He wants to send another 61 billion dollars to Kyiv.

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN HOST: But the problem is that Biden can't do it without Congress. And Congress doesn't seem like they want to budge here. Republicans on the Hill are demanding concessions on board of security before they agree to any more money for Ukraine. Biden said this about the holdup, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Congress needs to pass a supplemental funding to Ukraine before they break the holiday recess; before they give Putin the greatest Christmas gift they could possibly give him. And so because we've seen what happens when dictators don't pay the price for the damage and the death and destruction they cause and they keep going when no price is paid.

The threat to America to Europe and the world will only keep rising if we don't act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: All right. Let's go to CNN's Nick Paton Walsh. He is in Ukraine for us.

So Nick, we just heard from Biden there what are we hearing from Zelenskyy about all of this?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. In his conversations with lawmakers, Speaker Johnson, he essentially touted Ukraine's success on the battlefield. The way that Ukraine has used longer range weapons to hit Russian targets in Crimea, it's fair to say they pushed a lot of Russia's fleets there, strategically important towards the Black Sea Russian coast, so far away from NATO territory, strategic victory there, but also too we talked to Speaker Johnson about reform in Ukraine, touching on the sensitive issue here with those in Congress about corruption in Ukraine. Most, Boris, see some form of corruption, because of the intensive expenditure.

But this theme continues, it seems, to dog Ukraine in trying to get the billions it's become used to, almost weekly in announcements from the Pentagon and White House to keep this war afloat. But Zelenskyy is facing a complex time here. His defense minister, frankly, joking that the chief of the army, the chief of staff of the armed forces, Zaluzhnyi here, hadn't in fact been fired. There's a clearly a public dispute between the Ukrainian president and his commander in chief that's been talked about in Ukrainian society a lot over the past months because essentially how the counter-offensive over the summer didn't really work.

Combined with that, the crisis in funding they're now seeing, the fact that Russia has clearly been waiting, eager for this moment of Western unity and support to begin to crumble. Well, we're looking for a very bleak winter ahead here.

There are some suggestions that if Congress doesn't put something on the table that Ukraine can start to increase its funding with before the end of the week when they potentially go away for the holidays, they could, according to one lawmaker here, begin to have trouble paying salaries to doctors, first responders in January.

Today, we got a taste of exactly what it would look like if Russia gets more in its front foot, loses reporters in Avdiivka, a town in the east. Now, a U.S. intelligence report has suggested that maybe 13,000 Russians have become casualties as Russia tries to push for that eastern town, one of the number they maybe be able to take by just slowly grinding their way through, but a large cyber attack across Ukraine has damaged access to cell phones, impeded, in fact, the work of air raid sirens, air raid alerts on people's phones.

Civilians here are worried they're going to see a bleak winter as civilians and potentially front lines starve with the cash that have kept Ukraine's defense alive. Back to you.

SANCHEZ: Nick Paton Walsh live for us in Zaporizhzhia. Nick, thank you so much for the update.

Let's expand the conversation now with CNN Political and National Security Analyst, David Sanger.

[15:05:01]

David, I'm really curious about your reflections regarding the objections to providing Ukraine with aid.

Republicans say that there needs to be more accountability for the funds that are sent over there. The White House says there's no evidence that those funds are actually being misused in a widespread way. And then also the question of what victory looks like, a clear objective. I think the White House has made the case that it's for Ukraine to define. Where do you see those objections coming from?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Boris, there are three sort of separate things going on here. So number one is the argument about the border. And the president decided to link these issues together to get some political advantage that some people would vote on Israel. Some people would vote for this because of Ukraine. He could get the border through. That's looking like a worse and worse bet as time goes on.

Then there are the Ukraine specific issues that you've brought up. As you say, we haven't heard a huge amount. I'm sure there's some corruption going on. But let's face it. We've been sending them mostly arms made in the United States or brought out from the allies. There's not a whole lot to steal that would be in the way of actual cash, except for the support for the Ukrainian government. Not a lot of evidence there.

The biggest problem they're facing is the war is beginning to turn on them. The Russians, as we have all discussed, screwed up a lot of things in the first 18 months. But they have now got more manpower coming in. They've got more artillery coming in. They're using their electronic warfare better. And it's coming at the very moment that Putin may believe that we're beginning to crack in our own support, our own willingness to go do this. And if the U.S. cracks, Europe will be next.

SOLOMON: Let me ask, because we got some declassified information, one that perhaps Putin feels like even amidst those cracks, they can just wait it out. They can play the waiting game. But also that Russia has lost 87 percent of its ground troops since this war began and we're now sort of entering almost year three here.

Eighty-seven percent is staggering.

SANGER: Yes.

SOLOMON: Put that in context for us.

SANGER: It is staggering and it's a little bit hard to be able to measure that number. But what we're hearing from various intelligence sources is that they've had over 300,000 casualties. That is a huge, huge number. The fact that Putin's been able to sort of hold on without big protests and all is pretty remarkable in that regard.

That said, he has always betted, taken the bet that if he can simply hold on through next year, if Donald Trump or somebody whose view of the war is similar to Donald Trump gets elected, his problems are pretty much over. Because at that point, former president, Trump, has said he will solve this war in 24 hours. The only way you solve this war in 24 hours is saying to Vladimir Putin, you can have what you've taken, which would send a pretty stark message to a lot of people, including the Chinese as they're thinking about Taiwan.

SANCHEZ: And also, it's a chilling message to NATO allies as well, right?

SANGER: Right.

SANCHEZ: I mean, European support for this war has been critical. As you noted, if the U.S. starts to pull away, this could be a catastrophe for Ukraine.

SANGER: NATO has held together. It had now has a purpose and a cause greater than any it's had in 30 years. It's been impressive. The Europeans are stepping up and spending more and more on aid, not as much perhaps as we would like, but they're doing quite well. And if the U.S. comes out of this, it's like the plug comes out of the drain here. And I think that's what Zelenskyy is most worried about. It was interesting that he couldn't seem to persuade a whole lot of the opponents on the Hill today.

SANCHEZ: Yes. David Sanger, always appreciate the analysis.

SANGER: Great to be with you.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

We want to turn now to the Middle East and some increasing signs of a disconnect between Washington and Israel as their war against Hamas in Gaza rages on. Today, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu admitted that he and President Biden disagree on the future of Gaza. At a fundraiser, Biden told donors that Netanyahu needs to change his tactics as support for Israel's military response wanes. But it's difficult for Netanyahu, according to President Biden, because of his hardline government.

We're joined now by a senior adviser 0to Prime Minister Netanyahu, Mark Regev. Mark, thank you so much for spending part of your afternoon with us. I want you to react to a specific remark from President Biden. He says, and I quote: "This is the most conservative government in Israel's history," adding that the Israeli government "does not want a two-state solution."

Mark, is President Biden wrong?

MARK REGEV, SENIOR ADVISER TO ISRAEL PM BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: Well, the position of my prime minister is that the Palestinians should have all the power to rule themselves and none of the power to hurt Israel. And that second part is also very important. As you saw, the Israelis are still in shock from what happened to us on October 7th, where Palestinians crossed the border from Gaza and butchered our people.

[15:10:09]

I think it's important not to put this disagreement with the Americans into context. We agree on the need to defeat Hamas, that Israel is within its right and within its obligation to our people to destroy Hamas, that we have to see a new situation in the Gaza Strip. And I think it's not impossible that when we - as we've worked together, that we can find a way to move ahead in a post-Hamas-Gaza scenario.

SANCHEZ: To that point, though, Biden's comments seem to reflect the idea that Netanyahu has to change his approach, but that his government is making it very difficult for him. Do you think that Benjamin Netanyahu feels constrained?

REGEV: Boris, Israel, as of two months ago, has a wider government now. One of the large center (ph) parties joined the coalition to pursue the war against. It's part of this national unity we have now in Israel. Because there's really no left and right in Israel when it comes to defeating Hamas, everyone understands that we cannot have this terror enclave on our southern border, that we have to end that, that Israeli family should not have to live in fear of terrorist crossing the frontier in the middle of the night and butchering their children.

No one in country wants to go through October 7th ever again. And so we have a wider government now. That government is helping us achieve unity to defeat Hamas and I think it'll also help us when we have to start dealing with a post-Hamas scenario and what sort of arrangements we'll have in the Gaza Strip. The overriding principles, though, are clear, a post-Hamas Gaza will be demilitarized and de-radicalized.

SANCHEZ: Well, the question of what happens to Gaza after Hamas, there are very divergent views in the Israeli government. Who do you think should oversee Gaza after Hamas? Because U.S. officials are pushing forward the idea that the Palestinian authority should have a significant role, something that, from his remarks, it does not appear that Benjamin Netanyahu supports.

REGEV: So we say the following: We don't want to reoccupy Gaza, we don't want to govern the people of Gaza. Obviously, in the initial post-war period, we're going to have to have overriding security control because we can't see a resurgent terrorist element come and take away all the benefits that the war will bring because we want to see, as I say, a demilitarized and de-radicalized Gaza Strip. That's good for Israel. That's ultimately good for the Gazans who've had a Hamas government for 16 years and it's only brought them misery and poverty. They too deserve better.

SANCHEZ: So on the question of Biden suggesting that Israel is losing global support, does that influence the thinking of the Israeli government in any way? I think it's become clear, given what the U.N. Security Council tried to push forward this weekend that the U.S. blocked, that the world is not okay with the 18,000-plus people that have been reported killed, many of them women and children in Gaza. Does this in any way alter what Israel is trying to accomplish or at least the way that it approaches its war with Hamas?

REGEV: Well, first of all, the U.N. is a strange place, and there's an automatic - as you know, Boris, there's an automatic anti-Israel majority there at the United Nations. And we thank the United States. We're very appreciative of that veto that we had - the America's diplomatic protection. It really is appreciated here in Israel.

But as we move forward in this, it's crucial that we win this war. It's crucial that we defeat Hamas. In doing so, in parallel, we have to do everything we can to safeguard Gazan civilians, and we have to do everything we can to make sure they get the aid that they need. But that war needs to be won.

For Israel, there is no choice. We have to defeat Hamas.

SANCHEZ: Mark, are you concerned that if Israel doesn't move closer to the U.S.' expectations, specifically when it comes to civilians and a post-Hamas Gaza, that support for Israel from the United States may start to wane?

REGEV: We've seen amazing support from the United States. We've just said it was expressed by the American support of the United Nations. It's expressed by the American ammunition that is arriving in Israel to help us fight Hamas. We really do appreciate it and we share the same goals here. Hamas has to be defeated. And there has to be a new reality in Gaza where Hamas is no longer in power there, controlling the Gaza Strip, turning it into a base of terror.

[15:15:00]

I also think it's possible to achieve understandings on what it is a post-Hamas Gaza, because ultimately Israel and the United States want to see a Gaza that works for the people of Gaza. And we agree in the principles of demilitarization and deradicalization. There might be differences on how to achieve that the best way, that final stage after the war is won.

But I think we can - and we work together well. I think today the U.S.-Israel cooperation on all levels is almost unprecedented in its positive cooperation. Yes, we're working very closely together and we can work closely together on the post-Hamas scenarios.

SANCHEZ: Mark Regev, we have to leave the conversation there. Thank you so much for the time, sir.

REGEV: Thank you for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

SOLOMON: All right. Let's go to Capitol Hill. That's where the House Rules Committee just reconvened as they prepare to vote on an impeachment inquiry resolution for President Joe Biden. Now, if it gets through this key committee, it would open the door for the full House to formally vote on the issue. Biden is facing increasing scrutiny from House Republicans over his son's foreign business dealings.

Let's bring in CNN's Melanie Zanona. She is on Capitol Hill. So, Melanie, the holiday recess now just days away, meaning that whatever potentially happens next could happen very soon. What more are you learning?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, the House is expected to vote on this impeachment inquiry resolution as soon as tomorrow and we are told that it is expected to pass after nearly the entire House Republican conference has lined up behind this resolution. Now, this inquiry, of course, has been going on for several months after Kevin McCarthy, the former speaker, unilaterally opened this inquiry back in September.

But now Republicans really want to strengthen their hand in court as they try to enforce their remaining subpoenas as they look to wrap up the rest of this probe. But this does not mean that impeachment itself is inevitable. GOP leaders are urging caution, saying they're going to follow the facts where they lead, and saying that they're going to make a decision sometime in early next year, perhaps end of January, sometime in February.

And meanwhile, there are some moderate, key swing district Republicans who are casting doubt that they're going to find any impeachable offenses. Just listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): I think it's more important to have this information for the elections. Let's let the voters decide. And I don't know that you're going to see a high crime or misdemeanor, but I think the voters deserve to know what did the Bidens do with $25 million? Where did it come in from? Where did it go?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a chance when you get to the end of the inquiry that there won't be (inaudible) ...

BACON: I actually think - I think that's probably more likely than not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: Now, this vote tomorrow comes on the same day that Hunter Biden has been subpoenaed to appear for a closed-door deposition. However, he says he will only testify in public, and Republicans are threatening to hold him in contempt of Congress if he doesn't show. So all eyes on whether Hunter Biden shows up tomorrow, but our colleagues are reporting that Hunter Biden will be in D.C. tomorrow. So that is definitely one to watch for, Rahel.

SOLOMON: In fact, we do have reporting that he is physically in D.C. What that means tomorrow, we shall wait and see.

Melanie Zanona live for us on Capitol Hill. Melanie, thank you.

SANCHEZ: Still to come on NEWS CENTRAL, New Hampshire governor, Chris Sununu, expected to endorse former South Carolina governor, Nikki Haley. Will this be enough to slow down Donald Trump's march to the Republican presidential nomination?

And later, the U.S. pressuring Israel to open a key Gaza border crossing to allow more humanitarian aid into the enclave. That and much more coming up in just a few minutes.

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[15:22:46]

SANCHEZ: In just a few hours, the race for the White House will veer toward Grand View University in Des Moines, where Republican presidential candidate, Ron DeSantis, will be front and center at a CNN town hall and the pressure is on. In just 34 days, the Iowa caucuses are set to take place. The first official test to show which candidate Republicans favor. SOLOMON: And the latest Des Moines Register poll shows Donald Trump is very much ahead with the majority of likely caucus-goers.

So let's talk about all of this with our political commentators. We have Scott Jennings here. He served as special assistant to President George W. Bush and Maria Cardona. She was a senior advisor on Hillary Clinton's 2008 presidential campaign. Good to have you both.

Scott, I think let's just start with DeSantis. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that he was a rising star. It seemed like he had so much momentum. What happened? And what could he do tonight to change that, if you think?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Two things happened, Donald Trump. And, I mean, let's be honest, Donald Trump has momentum right now in this race and nothing has really dented him. And a lot of things seem to have propelled him along that you would - might have assumed before they happened that it would hurt the average candidate, but they just haven't hurt Trump.

And so DeSantis needs to keep the game going longer than Iowa. I mean, that's the issue here, is if Trump, if you look at the polling we just showed, I mean, if he wins this thing by 20-plus, it's going to feel like the race is over before we even get on to New Hampshire or South Carolina or other states.

And so that's the challenge, is your organizational strength if you're DeSantis, which he does have some, by the way. He's got the governor of Iowa and they've been working that. Is it enough to muscle you to within single digits? And then it feels like, okay, the ball's still bouncing. Because if everybody loses by 20 in Iowa, it's not - it's going to feel like deflated.

SOLOMON: Yes.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Maria, to Scott's point, DeSantis has dedicated himself to going to Iowa exponentially more than Donald Trump has.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

SANCHEZ: He's got the governor. He's got evangelical leaders. He pulled the full grassly all 99 counties. If he loses Iowa is it over?

CARDONA: I think it's over for him now, Boris. I think another thing happened to Ron DeSantis, and that's Ron DeSantis. He completely melted and was just eviscerated when he got to the national stage, right?

[15:25:05]

He might have done great in Florida, but when the focus of not just his policies, but the way that he was focusing on cultural issues in Florida, completely took everything out of his campaign. He also - and this is an important attribute to have, whether you like them or you hate them, they have to be likable, right? For the people that like them, they have to be likable. Everything that I've heard from people who know Ron DeSantis very well, even the people who served with him here on the Hill, was that he was absolutely unlikable. He did not have any way to have a personal relationship with somebody. It was not something he was ever really interested in. So it's interesting that in Iowa they're focusing on this, because in Iowa and New Hampshire, you know, there's a lot of that personal relationship, but I think that's one of the reasons why he has the percentages that he has in Iowa and New Hampshire.

By the way, I don't think Haley is going to do anything better either, and it's because Donald Trump has such a prohibitive advantage in both of those states that these - I think, these - both of these states and the primary, the debates, the town halls, it's all going to be for either vice president, a cabinet position if Donald Trump were to win or, you know, I don't know, maybe a gig on FOX News.

SOLOMON: It doesn't seem like Scott agrees with you, but I do want to ...

CARDONA: (Inaudible) ...

SOLOMON: ... I think you're making a ...

JENNINGS: Oh, I don't agree on the vice president. I don't think - I don't personally believe any of these people are running for vice president. I don't know what Donald Trump's going to do, but they will ...

CARDONA: You think they'd say no if they're offered it?

SANCHEZ: Do you think (inaudible) ...

JENNINGS: Well, getting offered it is hurdle one.

CARDONA: Right.

SANCHEZ: That's fair. That's fair.

CARDONA: Yes.

SOLOMON: Let me ask, because you mentioned the likability problem for DeSantis. Nikki Haley doesn't seem to have that same issue. It seems like she may also pick up a key endorsement from the governor of New Hampshire. You mentioned DeSantis picking up the endorsement from Kim Reynolds in Iowa. How much do these endorsements really matter? I mean, they're both popular governors, it seems, but how much does it matter?

JENNINGS: Oh, I think that if you have the endorsement of a governor in a state, certainly there's some organizational qualities that come along with that, some people that they are part of the governor's organization that can help you on the margins. But as it relates to moving polling, not very much. Not very much.

I do think it's always good to have someone popular vouching for you. It's better than a sharp stick in the eye. But I wouldn't - but if you're someone who believes, if you're a Republican in Iowa or New Hampshire right now who believes that Donald Trump was wronged in 2020 and that vindication is at hand and he's finally going to vanquish the Bidens, is an endorsement going to pull you off of that when you're looking at national polling that shows Donald Trump beating Joe Biden and Joe Biden really struggling? Of course not.

So I think it's a good day for earned media and it may help organizationally, but wholesale movement in the electorate? Unlikely.

SANCHEZ: That polling that Scott is talking about has really undercut the argument from some of the other Republican rivals in the race that aren't Donald Trump, that they are more electable than the former president. There's more polling that shows Biden going head to head with Florida Governor DeSantis and as well former U.N. ambassador Nikki Haley.

You see it there, it appears, that if it's - Ron DeSantis running - he's razor thin margin, within the margin of error obviously tied with Joe Biden. Nikki Haley, though, has a more substantial advantage. This coincides with other polling that shows that right now the president is not in great standing. Is it only likely that Biden wins against Trump?

CARDONA: No. I think it's likely that Biden wins no matter what. But you know why? Because the election won't be held today or tomorrow or next week, Boris. It's a good thing that the election is going to be a little bit less than a year from now. There is time.

The Democratic coalition will come home. That is what we have seen in presidential election after presidential election. There also doesn't seem to be a focus on the Joe Biden-Donald Trump contrast yet, why? Because Donald Trump still isn't the official nominee of the Republican Party.

Once that happens, and I believe it will happen, then that contrast between Joe Biden, the massive accomplishments that he has done in the years that he has been in the last three years, versus Donald Trump, who by his own words will be a dictator on day one and the incredible threat that he is to our democracy, plus everything else in terms of the things that he will take away that the American people now enjoy, I think will be a contrast that Joe Biden will win on election day.

JENNINGS: I'm sad to learn that the President of the United States has been toiling in anonymity for the last three years. I mean, the American people are feeling the effects of the Biden presidency right now. And I'm not as interested in the head-to-heads right now, because I do think it's a year out. Next summer, ask me about the head-to- heads. But the underlying fundamentals, how people feel about economic policies, and people's memories of how they felt about the economy under Trump versus under Biden, that is real, and it's hard to unwind that when people - it's part of people's lived experience.