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Hunter Biden Defies Republican Subpoena, Offers To Testify Publicly; Impeachment Inquiry Into Joe Biden Gains Momentum On Capitol Hill; Family Members Of Americans Held In Gaza Meet With President Biden; Senate Divided On Staying In Session To Work On Border Package; President Biden Suggests Israel Losing Global Support For Gaza Operations; Nikki Haley Claims Momentum In Presidential Race, Eyes Iowa Caucuses; New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu Endorses Nikki Haley For 2024; American Hostages' Families Thankful For President Biden's Support. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 13, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:45]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: All right, two big stories we're following this hour. Any minute from now, we are expecting to see if the Federal Reserve will hold interest rates steady for a third straight time. Of course, we will bring you the decision and what this all means for your wallet.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And just a few hours from now, lawmakers will vote on whether to formalize the impeachment inquiry into Joe Biden. This as his son Hunter defies a Republican subpoena and demands a public hearing. Much more on this show down on Capitol Hill straight ahead. We're following these major developing stories and many more on CNN News Central.

BROWN: In just moments, Wall Street will learn if the Federal Reserve Board will meet expectations by keeping interest rates steady for the third time in a row. The Fed has not yet reached its target rate for inflation of 2%, but Treasury Secretary Yellen thinks that could happen by the end of next year.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, in the meantime, analysts don't expect high interest rates to go anywhere for the rest of the year. Let's get straight to CNN business correspondent Rahel Solomon. We're also joined by Mark Zandi. He's the chief economist for Moody's Analytics. Rahel, what's the Fed decision?

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, we can call it a trend at this point. This is the third straight meeting that the Federal Reserve has decided to not raise rates. So, they're going to keep rates steady. To be fair, they're already at a pretty high level. I was just sort of reading through the report here. It seems that we're seeing some differences in the statement that it's actually accompanied by. So, we'll look at this a bit closer. But just to put this in perspective, the Fed has raised rates 11 times since March of 2022.

And so, every time they pause, there's a reason why. They're waiting to see how all of these rate hikes that you're seeing on your screen, sort of play out in the real economy, how they impact people like you and me and everyone watching at home. Does it start to impact unemployment? Does it start to impact consumer spending? Because we know that their rate, the federal funds rate, then impacts borrowing costs. It makes borrowing more expensive.

So, I can tell you that, again, this is the third meeting in a row that the Federal Reserve has decided that the best course of action is to do nothing and to just wait and see how this all plays out in the economy. I can tell you that they have already indicated that 2024 is going to be, when we start to see rate cuts, the question is when in 2024. Traders have priced in about a 40 percent chance that perhaps at the March meeting we see our first rate cut. Some would say that they would like it sooner rather than later.

But that's what we're waiting for and looking for in the press conference that starts in about 28 minutes at 2.30. Jay Powell is going to be asked a lot of questions about those rate cuts. But also, I should say, we're going to get the summary of economic projections. And that did come out. I'm going to take a little bit of a closer look at that. But that just gives us a sense of what the FOMC committee expects next year and the year beyond in terms of unemployment, in terms of GDP, in terms of inflation, in terms of interest rates. So, a lot to come here. But again, let's call it a trend. The Federal Reserve deciding for the third straight meeting that the best course of action is to pause.

BROWN: All right. So, inflation is cooling. But talk to us about why so many Americans still feel like the economy is just not working for them right now. We see it reflected time and time again in the polling, Rahel.

SOLOMON: Yeah, because what we're talking about essentially is inflation cooling and price increases going up slower than they had been, which is good news. But that doesn't mean that prices are where they were a few years ago. And I know Moody's just put out some new research that basically suggests that on average and I think we have Mark Zandi and he can speak to this a lot more closely. But on average, folks are spending about a thousand dollars more than a few years ago for the same basket of goods and services. So that's what people are feeling.

If you go out to try to buy a house right now, by the way, home prices are still high, but so are mortgage rates. It costs a lot more to buy a home. People feel that credit card rates, if you have you're carrying debt, it's more expensive to pay that back if you're taking out a student loan, et cetera, et cetera. So even though we're seeing price increases, cool, they're not going up as much as quickly. They're still not where they were a few years ago. And people know that and they feel that. SANCHEZ: Mark, to Rahel's point, we actually have numbers from Moody's showing that Americans are paying 436 more per month compared to two years ago. And when we break things down, we see that prices for things like eggs, milk, ground beef, they are coming down. But as Rahel noted, they remain stubbornly high. When do you think life might become more affordable for Americans?

[14:05:09]

MARK ZANDI, CHIEF ECONOMIST, MOODY'S ANALTYICS: Well, Boris is going to take time. I mean, I think we're not going to really see prices come down. I mean, some food prices may come in, but generally businesses don't cut prices. They just stop raising prices as aggressively or stop raising them at all. And so, what we need to see is people's wages, their incomes continue to rise. And over time, that'll allow for affordability to improve. But that's only over time. You know, that doesn't happen in a month, doesn't happen in a quarter. You know, that's something that's going to happen over the next year or two.

But just to give you a sense of that, though, by my calculation, which is the data you're using, over the past three years, if you go back three years ago and compare it to today, the typical household is spending a little over a thousand dollars more a month for the same stuff they were buying three years ago because of inflation. But here's the here's the reasonably good news. You look at their incomes all in. That's also about a thousand dollars per month compared to where it was three years ago. So that isn't great because, you know, people still don't feel good that their real purchasing power, you know, after inflation is essentially flat from three years ago.

They're still very uncomfortable with that. But that's good news if the trend lines continue, because a year from now, incomes will continue to rise. Inflation will remain lower. And I think people will start to feel better. But again, it's not one of these things that happens overnight. It's one of these things that I think will seep into the collective psyche over a period of a year or two.

BROWN: And I want to note, you know, just wages, they are higher. But for whom?

ZANDI: Well, actually, the good news there, Pam, they're up for everybody. I mean, across the entire income distribution. I mean, we get really good data from the Atlanta Federal Reserve Board. They track wage growth by the quintile of the income distribution. So, you know, bottom 20%, the middle 20%, the top 20% of people. And the good news is that wages have been rising for all income groups. And in fact, if you go back a year or two ago, when we were coming out of the pandemic, labor market was really tight, really significant shortages for lower skilled workers, low wage workers did better.

So, it's that that's good news. But having said all of that, it's very clear that folks that are in the lower part of the income distribution, low wage Americans, you know, they're struggling. I mean, they're, they're struggling with the inflation, they couldn't save during the pandemic. They didn't have the resources, the inflation is really hurting them, they've turned to credit cards and consumer finance loans to help supplement their income. And now they're facing higher interest rates on that, on that debt. So, you're the point of what you're saying is exactly right that, you know, they're the folks in the bottom part of the distribution are suffering. But, but, but wage growth, the good news there is that's been up across the board across all income groups.

BROWN: Yeah, that is certainly good news. Rahel, I want to give final word to you.

SOLOMON: Yeah, I was just going to add to Mark Zandi's point about some good news, a few things that we can actually now see in the summary of economic projections, since we have a moment to look through it, is that if I'm reading this correctly, the Fed is actually predicting more rate cuts than we had previously expected from the last time we heard from them in September, when they released their last summary of economic projections, they actually expect inflation to cool a bit faster than their last projections, although we don't get back to the 2% target until 2026.

But again, for folks who have been waiting for rate cuts for folks who have been carrying debt or, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, waiting for borrowing costs to come back down. It looks like according to these most recent summary of economic projections from the Fed, they expect more rate cuts in 2024 than previously expected.

SANCHEZ: Rahel Solomon, Mark Zandi, got to leave the conversation there. Thanks so much for the updates. We want to pivot now to Capitol Hill, where a heated debate just wrapped ahead of the vote on a Biden impeachment inquiry. Speaker Mike Johnson thinks that Republicans have the numbers to do it. Earlier today, not too far from where those lawmakers are, Biden's son, Hunter Biden, called out Republicans and offered to testify publicly as part of their probe.

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HUNTER BIDEN: James Comer, Jim Jordan, Jason Smith and their colleagues have distorted the facts by cherry picking lines from a bank statement, manipulating texts I sent, editing the testimony of my friends and former business partners and misstating personal information that was stolen from me. Republicans do not want an open process where Americans can see their tactics, expose their baseless inquiry or hear what I have to say.

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SANCHEZ: We're joined now by a Republican congressman on the Oversight and Judiciary Committee's Congressman Russell Fry of South Carolina. Congressman, thank you so much for being with us. Last hour, we heard you argue on the House floor that Republicans have done more in 10 months than law enforcement has done in five years investigating Hunter Biden. If you believe that to be the case, why then have this formal vote on an impeachment inquiry? Is it really going to make that big a difference in your investigation?

[14:10:09]

REP. RUSSELL FRY, (R-SC): Well, I think it will. I mean, if you look right now, there are people that we are trying to have come in for depositions, including Hunter, but members of the administration that will not come in absent a formal vote. We have seen emails not be produced absent a formal vote. And while a formal vote is not required, it is considered a best practice. And so, if the administration, through their lawyers, thinks that we need a formal vote, well, let's go have one.

SANCHEZ: Well, Hunter Biden is in D.C. right now. He says he's ready to testify publicly. Why not just have him answer questions in front of the world?

FRY: Well, look, in the House, I mean, Don Jr. came before the House of Representatives in closed testimony multiple times. A subpoena has been issued for Hunter to appear. Look, if he wants to come in for a public interview, that's completely fine. But you don't go to a trial first before you have a deposition in a court of law. And you're not going to - we're not going to let Hunter Biden dictate the terms of a lawfully issued subpoena. He was supposed to be here today. He appeared up over on the Senate side and then kind of skipped off in a suburban somewhere. But right now, he has an obligation to appear before the House Oversight Committee for a transcribed interview.

SANCHEZ: Sir, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jim Jordan, didn't follow a subpoena to testify before the January 6th special committee. Do you not see some hypocrisy there?

FRY: No, I think Jim Jordan's I mean, he's been unequivocal. He said he was happy to do it. He wanted to know the parameters here. We've had those parameters. We've been communicating with Hunter Biden's lawyers. He's known about the date for, for a very, very long time. He decided to show up on the Senate side today, not on the House side, where he would be subject to the sergeant at arms to come collect him. And then as soon as he was done, he didn't answer any questions. He said he was there to answer questions, but not a single media outlet got an answer from him on any of the questions that they have or that we have. He got in a suburban and he skipped town. It was all kabuki theater. And the United States, the American people deserve better.

SANCHEZ: Congressman, during your remarks about an hour ago, you alluded to millions of dollars that the Biden family received. I want to dig in on that specifically how much of that money went to Joe Biden when he was vice president?

FRY: Well, what we know right now is that decisions will be, we have a $40,000 loan, alleged loan repayment directly from Sarah Biden and Jim Biden, his brother

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: -- that was made in 2017 when Mike Pence was vice president. I'm wondering specifically when Joe Biden was vice president, how much money have you heard that he received allegedly from his son's business dealings? FRY: We know that 20 LLCs have been opened, many of them while Joe

Biden was vice president. We know that $25 million have flowed through the coffers of the Biden family and through all their associates and their various entities

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Specifically, to Vice President Joe Biden or just the Biden family in general?

FRY: Well, the Biden family in general. We know that Hunter Biden was put on the board of Burisma. He was not qualified to do so. He said that himself. We know that that he was asked by Devin Archer, in Dubai, or excuse me, Burisma executives in Dubai to make a call to Washington. And we know that Hunter Biden traveled with his father to Ukraine for a special prosecutor to be filed. Look, at the end of the day, we continue to follow the facts. For 10 months, we've been doing that.

What is really important right now is that we formalize this impeachment process and continue to provide clarity that the American people expect. Seventy percent of the American people think that something is not right, including 40 percent of Democrats.

SANCHEZ: Well, it's possible that they think something is not right because allegations continue being made, but there is still, at least from what I'm hearing from you, no legitimate, obvious evidence that Joe Biden either received money when he was vice president from his family's business dealings, nor that he abused his power as vice president to enrich his family. Do you have evidence that Joe Biden abused his power as vice president to make his son or anyone else rich?

FRY: Well, I think you look at the Ukraine example as the prime example is that we're, and this is why in formalizing an impeachment inquiry is so essential. These aren't just allegations out of thin air. These are evidence that we have gained over months and months, still more to come. But what is really important is, were decisions made on the world stage that benefit his family. We've seen money flowing from China, from Chinese energy companies. We've seen money flowing from Burisma, Ukraine, Kazakhstan and others. And so, we're going to follow the facts. And again, an impeachment inquiry doesn't mean impeachment. It means that we're formalizing the process. And we have a lot of questions. The American people have those same questions.

SANCHEZ: Certainly, there are many questions to answer. Of course, I am curious when you reference the Ukraine dealings, what specifically are you talking about? Is it the Ukrainian prosecutor that Joe Biden pushed to be fired?

[14:15:00]

FRY: Yeah, the Ukrainian prosecutor, he said he fired him. We know that Burisma was being looked into by that prosecutor. We know that money was being held up in the U.K. and frozen from Burisma. And it wasn't until that conversation in Dubai with Burisma executives to call Washington, D.C., that all of a sudden money was held up under the color of U.S. law to get that prosecutor fired. I think that's a legitimate question, and I think the American people deserve an answer to that.

SANCHEZ: I do want to point out that the idea that Joe Biden singularly got this prosecutor fired has been debunked in part because there were Republican senators that were pushing for this prosecutor to get fired. It was part of an effort to reform the judicial process in Ukraine. He was widely seen as corrupt in a bipartisan way, not just by people in the United States, but also by members of the European Commission. So, have you uncovered evidence in this investigation that contradicts people like Senator Chuck Grassley, who has looked into this for years and said that there was no wrongdoing there?

FRY: I think you look at the facts. The State Department was not calling for the firing of the prosecutor. In fact, they had made statements that he was going about and doing a better job. And all of a sudden now we deviate from State Department itself. We hold up that money to get that prosecutor fired again. I think it goes to where we are. And I think the American people had these questions and they're deeply suspicious of what is going on with this family, the connections, the influence peddling that is going on. And we've seen this not just in Ukraine, but quite frankly, in a multitude of different ways.

Twenty-five million dollars for what? For what services? For what things were provided. What things were rendered? What were what assurances were promised? We know, based on the testimony of Devon Archer, that Biden was considered the brand. So, were they selling access? Were they selling access where decisions being made that is part and parcel to why this impeachment inquiry is so important so that we can get these witnesses in. They can testify and we can let the facts guide us on where we need to go.

SANCHEZ: I do want to point out there were officials at the State Department going back to the Ukrainian prosecutor that you mentioned. When you said that he was not investigating Burisma at the time. So, replacing him could have potentially meant a deeper investigation of the organization that you alluded to.

Secondly, though, again, the question of the 25 million to the Biden family, there's perhaps the appearance of wrongdoing or the question of whether what Hunter Biden did was appropriate or not. But that's still a gap between his actions and the actual former Vice President Joe Biden when he was in office doing things that were in abuse of power. You seem confident that if you get the impeachment inquiry formalized, you'll come up with that evidence. Are you sure about that? Are you sure it's not going to backfire on your conference?

FRY: No, I think what is important is that we follow our constitutional framework. Impeachment is very serious. We don't take this lightly, unlike the prior Congress. And so, in order, we've already been instructed, and you can see this in letters that have come from the White House, that we need a formal vote. So, we're going to give it to them. And if they want a formal vote, if they require it, we're going to provide that. And we're going to get to the bottom, ask these witnesses relevant questions. I think the American people deserve that level of transparency. And again, much like the entire investigation this entire year, let the facts guide us.

We don't have a preconceived idea of where this goes, but it is really critical for fairness in the process to make sure that we're not allowing a president or a president's family to dictate policies of the United States because it enriches their family.

SANCHEZ: I certainly hope for the American people that the facts guide this inquiry and any other investigation you all decide to open. Congressman Russell Fry, thank you so much for sharing your time with us.

FRY: Thank you, sir.

SANCHEZ: Still ahead, border talks gaining momentum on Capitol Hill. Senators now weighing whether to stay in Washington and keep working through the Christmas holiday. Your details when we come back.

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[14:20:01]

SANCHEZ: This just in. Lawmakers are divided over whether the Senate should stay in office. Or stay in session and try to press ahead on a border package as negotiators signal some progress.

BROWN: CNN's Lauren Fox joins us now. So, Lauren, what are you hearing?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean, these talks have been going on for weeks. And yet, it seemed like last night in a private meeting behind closed doors, negotiators really did start to make some progress. The argument right now from some of those negotiators, including Chris Murphy, is that in order to keep working through this, in order to try and get a deal on the border piece of this, which would then unlock more funding for Ukraine, the argument is maybe it's worth sticking around in Washington, despite the fact that lawmakers were expected to leave at the end of the week.

You also heard that from Senator Tom Tillis, a Republican who has also been involved in these talks. But there are other Republicans who push back on that, who are saying that this agreement, or at least the prospects of coming to an agreement in the next couple of days, that they're not that close. That there is not enough. That there is not a major breakthrough that is on the horizon. And up to this point, despite the fact they've had talks after talks after talks, they haven't gotten there.

And therefore, it's worth just going home, giving members a break, and returning in the new year to deal with this. Senator John Cornyn said that time's about out at this point. He is a member of Republican leadership, someone who knows the issue of immigration very well, given where he hails from, the state of Texas. But I think that this is a really pivotal moment for the Senate.

Because yesterday, President of Ukraine, Zelensky, was here on Capitol Hill, making his plea to senators in a bipartisan briefing, urging them to get behind additional funding for Ukraine. But he couldn't deal with this issue of the southern border, which has been vexing members for the last several weeks. And so, I think that there is real momentum, and there is a real push to try to find an agreement. But at this point, given the fact that lawmakers were expected to leave at the end of this week, it's just not clear there's enough time to clinch this deal before the holidays.

[14:25:19]

SANCHEZ: Lauren Fox, thanks so much for the update. Just a short time ago, family members met with President Biden. Those were family members of Americans still being held captive in Gaza. They say that the administration has been unwavering in their support to get all those hostages home.

BROWN: And this comes as President Biden's support for Israel is showing cracks. In public remarks, he said Israel is starting to lose global support for its war on Hamas over its, quote, indiscriminate bombing campaign in Gaza. CNN's Kevin Liptak is at the White House for us. So, Kevin, tell us what happened in this meeting with these hostage families.

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, certainly you can imagine how emotional this meeting would have been when you think this is the first time that President Biden has been held captive in Gaza. And so, you know, President Biden was able to meet face-to-face with these family members of the remaining American hostages. And there are eight Americans who remain held hostage, seven men and one woman. And this was President Biden's opportunity to hear from them about their loved ones and about sort of the ordeal that they're going through. And you can only imagine the anguish and the agony when you think about a lot of these families don't even know the conditions of their relatives who are held hostage.

They don't even know if they're alive. And what we've just heard from John Kirby at the White House podium is that the president was moved as he heard these families' stories. And he promised to keep them informed of his efforts to secure the release of their family members. And when we did see these family members come out to talk here at the White House after this meeting, they were very grateful to President Biden. They said they were grateful that the president viewed their loved ones not just as hostages, but as men, women, son, daughters. Listen to what one, a father of a hostage, Jonathan Dukel - Chen, said after this meeting wrapped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN DEKEL-CHEN, FATHER OF MISSING SON IN ISRAEL: What we do know, what we do know, and we've seen that the U.S. administration from the previous round of negotiations and hostage release, the U.S. administration is completely committed to getting the hostages out, the eight Americans who remain there and the other nearly 130. We have no doubt about that. And today's meeting with President Biden, and Secretary Blinken, only reinforced that.

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LIPTAK: So certainly, President Biden's objective in this meeting was to demonstrate that he is doing everything he possibly can to get these hostages released. But when you talk to American officials, they do say that these attempts to discuss with Hamas the conditions of any kind of release are something of a standstill. You will remember Qatar is acting as something of a broker in these talks. We understand that they have gone to Hamas with several ideas, but they haven't heard back. Officials aren't even calling this a negotiation at this point. But certainly these families remain optimistic, one of them saying they're hoping for a Christmas miracle, guys.

BROWN: Understandably, they're hoping for that. Kevin, thank you so much.

SANCHEZ: Still ahead, just a little over a month until the Iowa caucuses and Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley says she has momentum and can compete with Donald Trump in the Hawkeye State. Listen.

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NIKKI HAYLEY, PRESIDENTAL CANDIADATE (R): Strength is high. They're paying attention now and things are starting to move. So, we're going to do everything we can. Does he have a stronghold in Iowa? Of course, he does. Do people support Trump? They do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: CNN's Dana Bash joins us next with more of her interview with Nikki Haley and New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu, who just endorsed Haley's 2024 bid. We'll be right back.

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