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European Authorities Foil Major Hamas-Linked Terror Plot; Israel's Use of "Dumb Bombs" Raises Concerns About Civilian Risks; Rudy Giuliani Backs Down from Testifying in Defamation Trial; U.S. National Security Advisor Urges Precision in Israel's Operations. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 14, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: We are following breaking news. Authorities say a major terror attack on European soil has been foiled. Multiple suspects arrested. We're learning some more details. Plus, a stunning report on the number of, quote, dumb bombs used by Israel and Gaza. They are less precise and pose a greater risk to civilians. What U.S. Intel is saying about how many are being used.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And an about face for the former New York mayor, Rudy Giuliani, backing down from testifying in his defamation trial. Closing arguments underway as we speak. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

BROWN: Counter-terror agencies worldwide have been on high alert in the wake of the Hamas attacks on October 7th and the ongoing war with Israel. And today, officials in several European countries have made terror remarks and related arrests. Details are still coming in. But here's what we know as of right now. German authorities say they have arrested long-standing Hamas members for an alleged terror plot.

And officials in Denmark have apparently made what they call unrelated terror arrests. Let's bring in CNN's Fred Pleitgen in Berlin. There are so many moving parts here. It's frankly a little bit confusing. But tell us what we are learning from Germany about all of this.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, first of all, you're absolutely right. Pamela, it is certainly very, very confusing. And it's all taking place in three European countries, which are actually all neighboring countries. Of course, everything in Europe, very close together. And the borders also are open. Now, the Germans are saying that in total, four people were arrested. And they say three of those people have direct links to Hamas or long-standing Hamas members.

And those three people were all arrested right here where I am in Berlin. Now, there was a fourth person who was arrested in the Netherlands who apparently was also part of what was going on. The Germans are saying that these three people who were arrested here in Berlin had long-standing ties to the Al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas. And that they were essentially tasked with finding a weapons depot that is buried somewhere. And they've been trying to do that for a couple of months now. Bring those weapons to Germany for what the Germans say would have been attacks on Jewish sites in Europe and across Europe.

Of course, security has been increased a great deal at Jewish institutions here in Germany since the October. 7th attacks and, of course, also Israel's military campaign in Gaza. In fact, tonight, the German Justice Minister came out and he talked about how urgent the situation is for Germany. He said the following, and this is a quote. We must therefore do everything we can to assure that Jews in our country do not have to fear for their safety again. And our security and law enforcement authorities are working flat out to achieve this. So, a lot of arrests have happened here in Germany and one in the Netherlands.

And in Denmark, there were raids across the country as well. Four people also arrested in total. Three of those in Denmark and one also in the Netherlands. Again, totally unrelated, as you've mentioned, Pamela. The Danes not mentioning Hamas by name, also saying they foiled attacks, as they say. However, the Israelis have come out and say that this happened at the direction of Hamas. That these were foiled attacks at the direction of Hamas. So, as you can see, the European authorities in these countries taking this extremely serious take it saying this is a very, very dangerous situation, Pamela.

SANCHEZ: And Fred, do we know specifically what the targets were for these attacks?

PLEITGEN: So, what we're what we're hearing from the Germans and from the Danes as well as they're saying Jewish places, Jewish sites, Jewish institutions, the Germans for their part are saying they're not sure whether or not there was a specific plot or a specific target. They're keeping it quite general and just saying that it was Jewish places here in this country and across Europe. Again, one of the things that we've mentioned is that, of course, Europe has very small countries. The borders are all open. It's very easy to get, for instance, from here to Poland or to get from here in Denmark in Denmark in just a couple of hours through open borders.

What we've seen in Europe since the October 7th attacks by Hamas there in southern Israel is that the security around Jewish institutions has been seriously upgraded. I can tell you from here in Berlin, if you look at some of these synagogues, cultural centers, Jewish schools here in this city alone, there is a big police presence there. So, it's something that's already been going on. And for Denmark, we know that it's been increased yet again because of the fear that something could happen. But it also there the authorities being thanked for making these arrests and possibly foiling what could have been a serious plot, guys.

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BROWN: Wow. A lot going on in Europe, for sure. And so interesting that these arrests were made in three different countries, unrelated, though, in terms of the Denmark arrests and the Germany arrests. Fred Pleitgen, thank you so much. Let's discuss with former CIA officer Bob Baer. Bob, what is your initial reaction here? Does anything in particular stand out to you?

BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, there are a couple things, Pamela. And one is Hamas is not generally considered an international terrorist organization. It's designated a terrorist organization, but it's not used to launching attacks in Europe. Having said that, I would be astonished if there are not more tries at terrorism and whether some are successful. And by the way, there could be American targets as well, because we're partying to this. We're partying to this war, as you know. So, I think that over the next year or two, or as long as this conflict goes on, the chances of terrorist attacks go up by the day.

BROWN: Yeah, and you mentioned American. I did some reporting recently with my colleague Evan Perez and Hannah Rabinowitz about how Hamas also has tentacles in the U.S., but it hadn't been a priority for U.S. law enforcement because Hamas was looked at more, engaged in fundraising here, not necessarily launching a terrorist attack. But the posture has changed dramatically, and I imagine in the wake of these arrests in Europe, here in the U.S., there's even more of a heightened alertness.

BARR: Oh, exactly, Pamela. We saw that attack -- that car accident on the border was assumed to be an attack right away by the administration. I mean, it was quickly debunked. But the point is, American intelligence, the FBI, are on high alert. They're looking at all Palestinian groups, but more worrisome are, of course, the lone wolves which were very hard to catch. And the fact that weapons are so easily procured here, and they are in Europe, too, more than they were like 20 years ago, it just, it's a very, very dangerous period. And if I were an American wandering around Europe, I would not have an American flag on my backpack, frankly.

BROWN: Oh, wow. I want to follow up on that because Germany's prosecutor says three suspects are longstanding Hamas members. This is, again, Germany, the Denmark arrests are different. Israel is saying that these were people who were acting on behalf of Hamas, but Denmark hasn't said that. But the Germany case, they were allegedly planning in the spring. So that means months before the October 7th terror attacks in Israel. What does that tell you?

BAER: Well, it's getting the weapons in place, first of all. And these weapons come from Bosnia, automatic weapons, grenades, explosives. A lot of these weapons have been raided from stocks in Scandinavia, military stocks, depots. So it's a matter of getting the weapons in place, hitting a target. And Hamas, I'm going to go out on a limb here, is going to focus on Israeli targets or Jewish targets in order not to undermine what support it has in Europe. It's not going to be a general attack against markets or the rest of it. Simply because Hamas is more focused than the Islamic State ever was.

BROWN: Robert, thank you so much. As always, for your analysis. SANCHEZ: So, President Biden's national security advisor is in Tel

Aviv right now for discussions, meeting with Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, its defense minister as well, other members of the war cabinet. The White House said a major directive for Jake Sullivan is to pressure Israeli leaders to be more surgical and precise in their pursuit of Hamas in order to reduce harm to civilians.

BROWN: But CNN is learning that thousands of the air-to-ground military weapons used in Gaza since the Hamas terror attack have been unresolved. CNN national security reporter Natasha Bertrand is here with the details. This is illuminating reporting, especially in the wake of President Biden saying that Israel is engaged in indiscriminate bombing. What more are your U.S. intelligence sources telling you about this, Natasha?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yeah, Pam. So, what we learned is that the U.S. intelligence community assesses that of the roughly 29,000 air-to-ground munitions that Israel has dropped on Gaza over the last two-plus months, about 40 to 45 percent of those munitions have been unguided, also known as dumb bombs. Now, that stands in contrast, of course, to precision-guided munitions, which are sometimes laser-guided, GPS-guided, typically are more accurate and precise than unguided munitions, which experts told us really pose an elevated risk to civilians and can be less precise.

And when you're talking about such a densely populated area like Gaza is, you know, the difference between a target reaching -- a munition reaching its target within a few feet can mean a matter of life and death in such a densely populated area. And so, the question is now, why is Israel using these dumb bombs?

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And we really don't have a great explanation at this point. The U.S. has provided Israel with the kinds of bomb kits that they can use to transform their munitions that they have in their stockpile into smart munitions, smart bombs that are GPS or laser-guided or other forms of precision-guided munitions. But the Israelis are still choosing to use, in a very large proportion of the time, these unguided munitions. And that really, according to the experts that we spoke to, undercuts the repeated Israeli argument that they are doing everything that they possibly can to minimize civilian casualties.

Now, we did get a statement after we published this story from an IDF spokesperson who said that the type of munitions used in each strike is determined according to the characteristics of the target. And they said, they do take steps to mitigate the harm to civilians. But really, the sheer scale of the use of these dumb bombs has raised a lot of questions among experts about why Israel's using them, whether it's necessary. And of course, if it's true, then why they're saying that they're taking all of these steps to mitigate harm to civilians when these actually can pose a greater threat to them in the long run.

BROWN: Yeah. And we should note, it's not just Israeli officials saying they're doing everything they can to minimize civilian casualties, the U.S. too. And John Kirby, a spokesperson for the National Security Council, just said Wednesday that Israel is doing everything they can to reduce civilian casualties. And yet, this reporting is coming out really raising a lot of questions about that. Natasha Bertrand, thank you so much. And a short time ago, the White House revealed more of what happened during Jake Sullivan's trip to Tel Aviv today.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. National Security Council official John Kirby said that Sullivan talked to Israeli leaders about transitioning from, quote, high-intensity operations to lower-intensity operations. In the near future. Let's take you now to Israel with CNN correspondent Jeremy Diamond, who's live for us in Sderot. Jeremy, what are you learning about the meetings between the National Security Advisor and Israeli officials?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, these meetings really come at a critical point in Israel's war effort against Hamas in Gaza. It comes as not only the civilian death toll is mounting, but also as growing international pressure is also mounting on Israel and being acknowledged by the United States, including by President Biden, days ago, talking about Israel's indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. And so, enter the picture, Jake Sullivan meeting with top Israeli officials, including the Israeli prime minister, to discuss not only that mounting civilian death toll, the ways in which the United States wants Israel to be more targeted in its operations, but also beginning to think about a timetable for transitioning the high-intensity fighting and bombing of Gaza that we are seeing from Israeli forces right now to a lower-intensity phase.

That's according to John Kirby, the National Security Council, spokesman. There is an acknowledgment from the Israelis that that is part of the discussion here. But for now, the Israelis seem committed to maintaining this current tempo of the war effort for weeks, if not months, to come. Yoav Galant, the defense minister, we're told, told Jake Sullivan that this war could last more than several months. And the Israeli prime minister, for his part, he said that the fighting will continue until the complete destruction of Hamas, until victory.

And so there is a question here about whether the message from American officials is going to be the same as the message from the Israeli government. We know that the question is being received by the Israelis. We know that another key question that's being discussed is also the fate of Gaza after Hamas is destroyed, if indeed that goal is achieved. But also, at the moment right now, the fate of those hostages, including at least eight Americans who are believed to be held by Hamas in the Gaza Strip. John Kirby also addressed that point moments ago.

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JOHN KIRBY, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESPERSON: We're still working by the hour to try to get a pause back in place so that hostages can get released. I'll let the Israelis speak to their negotiators. And where they are and what they're going to focus on. I can tell you one of the things Jake's doing in the region, I mean, if you need proof that we still wana see a pause just look at where the national security adviser is today. (END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And we know that there I s an active effort by U.S. officials to try and restart those negotiations between Israel and Hamas mediated by the Qatari government. For now, those talks have really broken down since that week-long truce between Israel and Hamas ended. And now there is an effort by the United States to discuss ideas with Israel to bring those ideas to the Qataris, to have them bring those ideas to Hamas. But for now, it appears that those negotiations are really going nowhere.

The Israeli prime minister, though, after his meeting with Jake Sullivan, he did say that a main goal of this war effort is to secure the return and the release of those hostages. So, we will see if there's any traction after Jake Sullivan's visit to the region.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, definitely a thread to keep an eye on there. Jeremy Dimon, thank you so much. Still to come on News Central, jury deliberations are underway in Rudy Giuliani's defamation trial.

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An attorney for the two Georgia election workers, Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss, is asking the jury to, quote, send a message with their verdict. We'll take you live to the courthouse.

BROWN: And key senators on Capitol Hill are telling CNN that it is highly doubtful that a deal on Ukraine and Israel will get done by the end of the year. But we learned minutes ago there could be a change to their holiday plans. We're going to have more details on that just ahead.

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BROWN: Jury deliberations are underway in the defamation trial against Rudy Giuliani. And this comes after the former Trump attorney decided not to testify in the case. Yeah, and a final plea to the jury attorneys for two former Georgia election workers say that Giuliani should pay $48 million in damages for spreading lies about them. Giuliani's attorneys are calling him, quote, a good man and asking the jury to be, quote, reasonable. CNN senior crime and justice reporter, Katelyn Polantz, is live for us outside the courtroom. Kaitlin, what's happening right now?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, the jury is deliberating. They just started less than an hour ago. And what they are looking at is how much to fine Rudy Giuliani and award these two women he spoke about so many times after the 2020 election, just spreading lies about them as the work they did as ballot counters in Georgia.

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So, what they're asking for, there was a number that their lawyers are asking for as far as the reputational damage that they've incurred. They're asking for $24 million to be awarded to Shea Moss and $24 million to be awarded to her mother, Ruby Freeman. So, $48 million total on that, at very least for how their names have been damaged, how they have been hurt and lost their livelihoods because of their name being so publicly spread around in this viral campaign of election disinformation. But then on top of that, there aren't even numbers that the plaintiffs have asked the jury to find.

And so the jury is going to be deciding on their own how much to award these women for the emotional destruction of the death threats that they went through and the days of testimony in this case have largely been about this. Both women took the stand. They spoke about the death threats, the doxing, how afraid they were even to be in their own homes, how they had to go to the police, how they have lived in fear and still live in fear and depression because of what happened to them and what Rudy Giuliani and others said about them after the election.

And then in addition to even that, the plaintiffs' lawyers here are asking, to punish Rudy Giuliani, for the jury to come back and award punitive damages because of the deliberate, sustained campaign that he had and that he keeps talking about them and that he failed to show up for this lawsuit in so many ways. He was there in court today. His attorney argued to the jury in their own closing argument that they should show compassion. But Giuliani spent most of the day in court looking at news stories on a laptop, not even barely paying attention.

BROWN: Wow.

SANCHEZ: Wow.

BROWN: Katelyn Polantz, thank you.

SANCHEZ: Let's dig deeper now on this with CNN legal analyst, Elliott Williams. Elliott, what do you make of this about face for Rudy Giuliani? Initially promising that he was going to testify and then relent.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It happens all the time. The idea of testifying in your own defense, frankly, it's human. Anybody who's sued should think, I want to clear my name, I want to testify, I want to tell my story. When you get into that courtroom, it happens all the time, Boris, where either, seeing the jury, hearing the judge, or the prospect of knowing that you can be confronted with your old statements, criticized or challenged on things you've said before, it's a very frightening prospect for a defendant. It was probably the right decision for him not to take the stand.

BROWN: I'm wondering, I just actually want to follow up on what Katelyn just said, that Rudy Giuliani was barely paying attention. He was like on his tablet. Could that kind of feed into how the jury, what the jury decides, the fact that he's just not even showing that he cares about the closing arguments?

WILLIAMS: Should it? No. Will it? Yes. And they're two very different things. Legally, a jury is not supposed to assess someone's behavior. And I'll be candid, even when I read this, read that in the article, they sort of rolled my eyes a little bit, because it's the kind of detail that's an interesting human detail, but just doesn't matter in the courtroom. Jurors are human beings, and they are watching a man whose life is on the line, scrolling through TikTok or Drugs Report or whatever it might be. And it just is a bad look. And you know, you got to win these people over as much as you have to be right on the law.

SANCHEZ: It also contrasts with what, he, with what his defense attorneys have said, that he's a good man, that he didn't intend to hurt these workers. He's outside the courtroom, still accusing them of fraud baselessly saying that we should all stay tuned for the evidence. He's been saying that for three years with no proof. Is that good man line effective?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, maybe. Look, I think a beautiful thing about our legal system is that good men and women can also defame other people. It's not a question of your personal virtue. It's a question of, did you make false statements that hurt the reputations of two individuals? And that's why they're suing for this amount of money. It's not just to enrich themselves off the court. Their reputations are a thing of value, and they are seeking at least in part to be compensated for that. And then also punish him a little bit.

BROWN: I'm wondering because on the reputation, you know, they're asking one of the women's asking for $48 million or 24 million a piece. The defense at one point compared with the plaintiffs are asking for in terms of damages as the civil equivalent of the death penalty. What do you make of that?

WILLIAMS: That's kind of a legal term. There's a concept of a corporate death penalty when a corporation is sued for tons and tons of money. It's look, it's rhetoric from lawyers that does have the power to devastate this defendant. There's no question about that. It's a lot of money. Now look at what this meant to these individuals in terms of death threats, physical threats, online harassment and criticism that they faced. And again, this comes down to their ability to run a business and conduct the affairs of their lives, which they've lost on account of this, of the conduct allegedly by the defendant.

SANCHEZ: Quickly, Elliot, what do you make of the remarks from the attorneys for the two election workers saying that the jury should send a message with their decision?

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WILLIAMS: That's the whole point of punitive damages, like compensatory damages are to pay you back for something you lost. Punitive damages are to send a message to deter other people in the community in the future from doing the same thing and say that, look, you might think this is just fun online chatter between friends, but this can actually really hurt people. Don't do it. And we are deterring you from doing that.

BROWN: And of course, we have another election coming up next year. And so, it will be interesting to see what happens with the punitive damages part. All right, Elliot Williams, thank you so much. Still ahead, U.S. lawmakers are in the middle of tense negotiations trying to reach a deal on funding for Ukraine, Israel and the U.S. southern border. Well, a little more time helped them seal the deal. A U.S. senator who sits on the Foreign Relations Committee joins us next.

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