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How Classified Intel On Russia Went Missing During The Final Days Of Trump's Presidency; Soon: Jury Deliberations Resume In Defamation Damages Trial, Georgia Election Workers Seeking $48M From Giuliani; U.S.: Next Phase Of War Will Precisely Target Hamas. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 15, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR & SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Most vulnerable time for most women, when they have the most interface with the healthcare system that they might have in their entire lives.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And Abby, I know you also talked to a dad who lost the mother of his child, heartbreaking story. I'm so glad you did this. I cannot wait to watch the whole thing. Abby Phillip, thank you very much.

PHILLIP: Thank you guys.

HARLOW: You're going to want to watch the episode of the whole story with Anderson Cooper, one whole hour, one whole story, Sunday night 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific only right here on CNN.

Right now, National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan is in Ramallah in the West Bank. CNN News Central continues our coverage now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: A CNN exclusive, the missing binder of secrets, highly classified information related to Russian election interference. What missing in the final hours of the Trump White House hasn't been seen since, what was in it, who had access? The disappearance and the mystery around it, not known until now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So any moment now we could get a verdict on damages in Rudy Giuliani's defamation trial as the jury weighing in potentially $48 million decision resumes deliberations.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Former President Barack Obama and President Joe Biden back together again at the White House, the major 2024 project behind this rare reunion. I'm Sara Sidner with John Berman and Kate Bolduan. This is CNN News Central.

BOLDUAN: We're looking at breaking news right now, exclusive new CNN reporting about highly classified intelligence that went missing at the end of the Trump administration. The information relates to Russian election interference information that was deemed so secret, it could only be accessed at the CIA. And the people working with the intelligence had to keep their notes locked in another safe at CIA headquarters.

Yet in the final weeks of the Trump administration, a binder of this intelligence was brought to the White House at the request of the President as part of an effort to declassify documents. And in the final chaotic hours of his presidency, it went missing. CNN's Katie Bo Lillis is part of the team that uncovered and broke this story. She joins us now. Katie Bo, tell us more.

KATIE BO LILLIS, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Kate. So this binder that was brought to the White House contained raw intelligence that the U.S. and its NATO allies had collected on Russia's efforts to meddle in the 2016 election, including sources and methods which is some of the most sensitive information in the intelligence world.

What we're talking about here is the underlying intelligence that formed the basis of the U.S. government's assessment that Russian President Vladimir Putin sought to help Trump win the 2016 election. The disappearance of this binder was so alarming to intelligence officials that according to our sources, they briefed Senate Intelligence Committee leadership about the situation last year.

Now, we are told by one U.S. official familiar with the matter that this was not among the classified items found in last year search of Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort and it wasn't why the FBI searched Trump's residence. But what is true is that after more than two years that it has been missing, this intelligence does not appear to have been found.

BOLDUAN: What are you learning about how this intelligence ended up at the White House?

LILLIS: Yes, so Trump had spent years trying to declassify material that he said, would prove that his claims that the Russia investigation was a hoax. And this intelligence was part of a massive collection of documents that he ordered brought to the White House. And there was this kind of frantic scramble in the final days of the administration to redact the documents so that they could be declassified and released publicly.

On his last full day as president, Trump did issue a declassification order for these materials, but they didn't get released before he left office. And there's actually a Trump ally who has filed suit over this, hoping to force the federal government's hand although the FBI says the majority of the contents of the binder have now been posted publicly on its FOIA website.

We in reporting this story, my colleagues and I spoke to more than a dozen sources who described how this intelligence was brought to the White House in the final weeks of Trump's presidency and then went missing.

BOLDUAN: So are there theories? Are there clues of what happened to this intelligence?

LILLIS: Yes, Kate, we don't know. The bottom line is we don't know what happened to the binder that went missing. There is one theory that has emerged from testimony from Cassidy Hutchinson, the former top aide to former chief of staff, Mark Meadows. She told the January 6th Committee that she was, quote, almost positive it went home with Mr. Meadows. She said they've been kept in a safe in Meadows's office when it wasn't being worked on.

She also wrote about this classified intelligence in her new book claiming that on January 19th, the final night of the Trump presidency, she says that she saw Meadows leave the White House with an unredacted binder, quote, tucked under his arm.

[09:05:09]

Now, we should say that Mark Meadows's attorney strongly denies this. He said in a statement, quote, Mr. Meadows was keenly aware of and adhere to requirements for the proper handling of classified material, any such material that he handled or was in his possession has been treated accordingly. And any suggestion that he is responsible for any missing binder or other classified information is flat wrong.

We also reached out to officials at the CIA, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and the Justice Department, all of them declining to comment. The Trump campaign also didn't respond to our multiple requests for comment, which is all to say, Kate, that the mystery of this missing binder remains just that a mystery.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Great reporting though, Katie Bo, you and the team, thank you so much. John?

BERMAN: All right. On the subject of Mark Meadows, happening now attorneys for the former White House chief of staff are in court in Georgia, as he fights to move his election interference charges from state to federal court. This is an appeal right now. His lawyers argue that the charges belong in federal court because they're a part of his job while working for former President Trump.

Again, the first judge already ruled no on this. He's appealing it. Meadows along with Trump and 17 others were charged for attempting to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia. CNN's Zach Cohen outside the courthouse in Atlanta. Zach, what do we expect today?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, John Meadows's attorneys just starting their oral arguments. They got about 15 minutes, each side has 15 minutes to make their case. And Meadows's attorneys are going to reiterate their same argument from last time that everything Mark Meadows did after the 2020 election, he was doing it in his capacity as Trump's chief of staff. And therefore, it was part of his official duties. And that should allow them to rely on a 200-year-old statute to move his case from Georgia and state level court here to federal court.

And the hopes are by moving into federal court, Meadows thinks, he might have a chance to get the entire case against him dismissed. And so Meadows not only has the best case of the 15 codefendants remaining in this case, but he's also a test case. He -- really the ruling here and ultimately a decision if he loses an appeal to the Supreme Court, the decision will impact several other codefendants who are also trying to get their cases move the screen or move to federal court.

But they didn't have a role like chief of staff at the time. They were various other federal employees. So we're going to have to wait and see what specifically and if Meadows's attorneys change their argument at all, given the fact like you mentioned he's already gotten rejected once. But this is a consequential argument today. And obviously, if he loses, he can still appeal it up to the Supreme Court.

BOLDUAN: Yes. And again, this procedural matter, and so many that we're seeing now get to the heart of this case, which were the efforts to overturn the 2020 election, part of their government work or was it political? So far, every judge has decided it's political. We'll see if that continues today. Zach Cohen, thanks so much for being with us. Sara?

SIDNER: All right. Any minute now, a jury will resume deliberations in Rudy Giuliani's defamation damages trial. And there's a real possibility of a verdict today. The eight person federal jury, met for three hours yesterday weighing a potentially $48 million decision. CNN's Katelyn Polantz is live outside court in Washington, D.C. Katelyn, this word it could come today. Obviously they have gotten the case. Rudy Giuliani did not take the stand. It did not go longer than expected. What do you know?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, the jury is going to be coming in any minute. The judge is on the bench. Rudy Giuliani is back in court, opposite Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss. And that jury has been at work already, Sara, for about three and a half hours. And they are looking at numbers. They have to assign an amount that they -- that Rudy Giuliani will have to pay Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman to repair their reputations.

The ask there is $48 million. That is a big sum, at very least just for the reputational damage, the defamation in this case. And then the jury is also going to have to determine how much these two women should be getting for Rudy Giuliani because of the emotional distress, the grief, the stress that they had to go through over years, not just in the very first days after the 2020 election as he was spreading these lies but since then, as they have feared for their lives, continue to struggle with work, continue to be afraid to share their names with people.

And then on top of that, there is also a number the jury has to determine of how to punish Giuliani and deter him from continuing to speak about these two women with falsehoods. Now, that could be a very astronomical sum. The pitch that Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss's attorney yesterday made to the jury was that he is a very powerful figure. He absolutely should have known better especially as an attorney with a 50-year career and as someone who had very deliberately chosen to make this campaign to sow disinformation after the election, use their names and even had Donald Trump being using their names in a phone call with the Secretary of State in Georgia.

[09:10:16]

Michael Gottlieb, the lawyer for these two women, he said to the jury that Rudy Giuliani thought they were ordinary and expendable. He didn't see them as human beings. It's dangerous for them to be Ruby Freeman or Shaye Moss because of Giuliani and his co-conspirators, people like Donald Trump and the Trump campaign. So that is all of what the jury is sitting with now. And Rudy Giuliani on his side had very little of a case to present. So now we just wait for a verdict. Sara?

SIDNER: It is a remarkable case and these two women have gone through hell. The question will be in the end, can Rudy Giuliani actually afford to pay them because he's having major problems with his own finances? Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much. We'll wait for that verdict. I'm sure you'll bring it to us when you get it. Kate?

BOLDUAN: And joining us now while we wait for that final save for the jury is CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig for more on this. Elie, you've long said that it was going to be a bad idea for Rudy Giuliani to testify if he was going to in this. But saying that you're going to testify and then at the last minute, change the plan and not, does that also hurt him?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: You're exactly right, Kate, maybe the only thing worse than Rudy Giuliani actually taking the stand is promising the jury that they would hear from Rudy Giuliani and then not putting him on the stand. When you're trying a case, if you make a promise to a jury, if you tell them you're going to hear from a certain witness, see a certain piece of evidence and then you don't give it to them, that totally undermines your credibility.

That said, had Rudy Giuliani taken the stand? We know it would have been a complete disaster because look at the way he's been acting outside the courthouse. He's on the street defaming Ms. Moss and Ms. Freeman again. So it was the lesser of two evils I think here. But either way, I think we're headed towards a very large verdict against Rudy Giuliani, a very large damages amount against him.

BOLDUAN: I want to talk about the difference in kind of the -- what the jury has to decide here in terms of the damages in just a second. But first and foremost, things -- you're talking about things that Rudy Giuliani said outside of court. Here are things that his attorneys -- his attorney said in court. Rudy Giuliani is a good man. I know some of you may not think that. I'm asking you to be reasonable.

And then he also asked juror to remember Giuliani's reputation from years gone by as mayor of New York City, after 9/11, as federal prosecutor who took down the mob, say -- his attorney saying to jurors, Rudy Giuliani shouldn't be defined by what's happened in recent times. This is a man who did great things. When it comes to the jury deciding the damages, does this have impact, should it have impact?

HONIG: No, Kate. It's irrelevant, first of all, at best. The jury is not there passing judgment on whether Rudy Giuliani is or was a good human being. They're passing judgment on how much were Ms. Moss and Ms. Freeman damage. And how much does Rudy Giuliani, one -- need to be punished? The other thing is, I think that argument actually cuts against Rudy Giuliani, because you're reminding the jury, this is a very powerful man. This is a person who knows better.

This is a person who's held high public office. He was a very high ranking prosecutor. He was the mayor. And then he goes and does this. He's not at all sympathetic. I think it shows he knows better. And I think it's going to actually backfire.

BOLDUAN: What about the difference in damages? You expect it's going to be heavy, right? It's going to be -- it's going to hit him hard. But when you talk about compensatory and punitive, explain this.

HONIG: Yes. So there's two different numbers that we're going to get from the jury today with respect to each of the two plaintiffs. First, there's compensatory damages, how much were these women damage? How much was the reputation harm? How much suffering did they go through? And that's supposed to be a sort of mechanical mathematical equation, although there's of course, a lot of judgment that the jury is going to have to bring.

Separate from that, and on top of that, there's what we call punitive damages, meaning we need to send a message here, meaning Rudy Giuliani's actions were above and beyond were unacceptable. And as the name suggests, punitive damages are meant to punish. I do think we're going to see hefty numbers in both of those columns.

BOLDUAN: And that's where the -- you should have known better kind of calculation can definitely come into account. It's great to see you Elie. Thank you. We're going to standby. We're going to bring you that when the jury decides and when we get that from them today. Sara?

SIDNER: All right. The suspects in an alleged Hamas terror plot in Germany are in court. What we are learning about that foiled attack.

Plus, Obama and Biden back together again. CNN has the exclusive first look at the new video from the former president.

[09:14:45]

And a big court victory for Prince Harry, a judge rules that a British tabloid group illegally hacked his phone. How he's responding to today's ruling and what it means up next.

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BOLDUAN: Right now, the White House National Security Adviser is meeting with the leader of the Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank. Now earlier, Jake Sullivan was with Israeli leaders and talk to reporters afterward about the transition in the fighting that the Biden administration is expecting from Israeli forces. And Sullivan also downplayed any rift between the U.S. and Israel over how Israel is conducting its campaign to take out Hamas after the October 7th terror attack that set off this whole war.

CNN's Alex Marquardt is live in the West Bank with much more for us. And Alex, you ask the critical question of Jake Sullivan this morning. What more are you hearing about that meeting with Israeli leaders?

[09:20:01]

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, it's clear that the administration is trying to make it seem like Sullivan came here to, as they say, ask hard questions, to get a status update on where Israel's head is in terms of where the war stands right now and where they see things going forward.

But clearly, there are significant American concerns about the way that this war is being waged, the humanitarian crisis, the civilian death toll. And the major question I think that Sullivan had for his Israeli counterparts is, how much longer do you think this heavier phase of the fighting is going to continue?

The expectation from the American officials we speak to is that they have been urging Israeli officials to transition this war from what they're calling a higher intensity phase, which is this heavy bombing, heavy assault that we're seeing now, the intense fighting with Hamas militants to a lower intensity phase. Now, Sullivan did not put a timeline on that. He said it is conditions based. Here's a little bit more of how he described the transition into a lower intensity phase.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: There will be a transition to another phase of this war. One that is focused in more precise ways on targeting the leadership and on intelligence driven operations that continues to deal with the ongoing threat that Hamas poses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Now, Israeli leaders have not given any indication that that transition is coming anytime soon. The defense minister saying just yesterday that this war will go on for a lot more than just several more months. Sullivan is saying, that's not contradictory because there is an expectation that that lower intensity phase, the more focused fighting could continue for more months after that.

But there's some bigger questions here in the West Bank today, Sullivan meeting with the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, because there is this overarching question of who is going to govern in Gaza and in the West Bank, following this conflict. The U.S. has said it needs to be a revitalized Palestinian Authority. Does that mean that President Abbas is leading that Palestinian Authority? That is certainly that could have been an elephant in the room during those discussions today.

Here you have the United States essentially playing a middleman between the Palestinian Authority and the Israelis. And the Israelis have said clearly they don't want Abbas in charge of Gaza or the West Bank. They don't want the Palestinian Authority to be governing. So major questions about what that day after as its called, will look like. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Yes. And what realistically comes from the meetings in the West Bank today. You're there. We'll hear what happens. Thank you so much, Alex. Sara? SIDNER: All right. Just in, we're learning that four more people connected to terror arrests in Denmark are still at large. This follows the arrest of four alleged Hamas members suspected of plotting terrorist attacks on European soil by German and Dutch authorities. Three of the accused are due to appear before a judge in Germany's Federal Court of Justice. They were arrested on suspicion of planning attacks on Jewish institutions in Europe. The country's top prosecutor there says, the individuals were closely linked to Hamas leadership, and even started searching for an underground weapons cache in Europe, months before Hamas launched its deadly attacks on Israel on October 7th.

Joining me right now, Christopher O'Leary with the Soufan Group, a global security group. Thank you so much for being here. I want to address something quickly. Hamas has not been like an ISIS or an al- Qaeda, where you have seen attacks that Hamas has claimed to be behind in other parts of the world. Is that correct? Is this a different tack that we're seeing here, potentially?

CHRISTOPHER O'LEARY, SR. VP FOR GLOBAL OPERATIONS, THE SOUFAN GROUP: So that's accurate. Historically they wanted to be perceived as a nationalistic group, although they have, you know, Islamist ideology. They have been very measured and very locally focused, as has Hezbollah. But there have been occasions in the past Hezbollah after Amad McNeo (ph) was killed, where they conducted a bombing in Bulgaria in 2012.

But it was very focused. My take on this is, is Hamas demonstrating to Israel who has set the conditions for this, that we can strike you anywhere. If the plot would have gone forward, it would have likely been targeted directly in Israeli facility, or a Jewish population out there.

SIDNER: When you hear these accusations and their allegations at this point. And you talk about Hamas saying to Israel, we can strike you anywhere. Are we pushing forward to a bigger regional conflict if this starts to happen in different parts of Europe, potentially other places?

O'LEARY: So I think the concern is in a few different levels. Number one, directed attacks like this, although I think there would be limited in scale, this is no different than after Israel said they'd secured all of Northern Gaza and then, you know, Hamas puts a video out and shoots rockets from Northern Gaza, so they don't control it. So that's number one.

Number two, you could have diaspora who were have a grievance that, you know, they're seeing the imagery of the victims, the women and the children coming out of Gaza and this is going to move them towards mobilization. You also have, you know, individuals who are just looking for an ideology for a grievance for a movement and you see a lot of that. People are just out there shopping for something. They're isolated individuals, and they will get behind this.

[09:25:14] The last thing I will say, and I'll point back to our anti-war movement during Vietnam, you know, Students for Democratic Society, SDS, changed. They went from peaceful protests, which were not working to becoming the weather underground movement, and conducted countless bombings across the United States. So a group can morph over time.

SIDNER: There have been people sort of looking at this conflict and it is devastating to the Palestinians in Gaza, who are not members of Hamas, they're just regular citizens. It's hard to watch those images. It does make you feel just damaged inside as well as the October 7th attacks. And what happened to Israelis in their beds, in their homes. As this goes forward, as this war continues on, is there more and more and more of a chance of things going south elsewhere of terrorist attacks, as you're seeing the accusations here?

O'LEARY: That is the biggest concern from counterterrorism professionals. So the concern is, number one, seeing this grow out of control both on the, you know, as Israel continues to conduct their strategy, the way they're doing it, and Jake Sullivan is trying to shape that, but that this is going to grow bigger. And the biggest thing is the axis of resistance, the Iranian surrogate groups, which is Hezbollah, which is Hamas, which is Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Houthis.

They have conducted attacks, but they've been very measured as well. That's also messaging of what they could do. So think about the shipping, taking down the ship. What could they do if the gloves come off?

SIDNER: Christopher O'Leary, it's a scary thought. But we will be watching all of this as what is going on in Europe seems to be getting a bigger net here in this particular instance. Thank you so much for your analysis. Appreciate it.

O'LEARY: Good to be with you.

SIDNER: All right, John?

BERMAN: All right. We have a CNN exclusive, what Barack Obama just did to help get President Biden reelected.

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