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Trump Stokes Fear on Immigration; Congress Continues Immigration Talks; Pressure Growing on Israel. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 18, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:01:01]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Under pressure. U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is in Israel and pressing for a different, more targeted approach in Gaza, as global calls for a cease-fire mount. We're following the latest.

Plus: He's riding high in the polls, but former President Trump's rhetoric is hitting new ugly lows, the GOP front-runner's latest attacks on migrants drawing comparisons to Hitler.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And after the meltdown. The U.S. telling Southwest Airlines to pay up. We're talking $140 million fine for last winter's travel nightmare.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Right now, pressure is growing on Israel to change its strategy in its war against Hamas because the civilian death toll in Gaza is skyrocketing, continuing to climb here.

Today, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as well as other top Israeli officials, in Tel Aviv to get a clearer picture of their military operations, the U.S., of course, pushing Israel for this more targeted approach in Gaza, one that is less harmful to civilians.

At a press conference earlier today, Austin reiterated U.S. support for Israel. He said he discussed the future of Gaza, though, and the protection of its civilians with Israeli leaders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: So we will continue to stand up for Israel's bedrock right to defend itself. And we will also continue to urge the protection of civilians during conflict and to increase the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza.

That's important as Israel fights to dismantle the Hamas terrorist infrastructure in Gaza. And it will also be crucial for our work with our allies and partners after the fighting stops.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: Remember, Austin's trip comes just days after Israel's military says it shot and killed three Israeli hostages in Northern Gaza after misidentifying them as threats.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is following the latest developments from the Pentagon.

But, first, let's go to CNN as Jeremy Diamond, who's live for us in Tel Aviv.

Jeremy, Israel's now sharing new details about how this went down, the deaths of those hostages. Walk us through what you're learning.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we initially learned on Friday that these three Israeli civilian hostages emerged from a building and were shot by an Israeli soldier who mistook them for a threat.

They were shot and killed. We now understand the two of them were shot and killed on the spot. Another one of them ran back into a building injured and in a subsequent burst of gunfire was actually killed. It's not clear exactly why that happened. We also understand that they were waving a white flag as they emerge from this building.

But here is the new photos that we have, these new images showing that, in the building adjacent to where they were killed, there were two white flags with what looks like red sauce smeared on them spelling out the words "SOS" in one instance, in another instance, saying: "Help. Three hostages."

That was in the building adjacent to where they were killed. And it's where the Israeli military believes that these men had been holed up for some time. It's not clear if they were abandoned by their captors or if they had escaped captivity, all of this taking place in the Shejaiya neighborhood of Gaza City, where the Israeli military has been fighting very hard for the last couple of weeks now, trying to destroy one of the last remaining Hamas strongholds.

But this incident is really drawing a big focus on the Israeli military's rules of engagement more broadly, because you can only imagine the number of times that an incident like this may have taken place with Palestinian civilians, instead of Israeli civilians, for example.

That is what a lot of Palestinians are talking about now. And the White House's National Security Council spokesman, John Kirby, moments ago saying that Israel may need to reassess and readjust its rules of engagement. It may be something that they have to take a look at in the wake of this incident.

[13:05:06]

KEILAR: And, Jeremy, tell us about this tunnel that the Israeli military says it discovered, one of Hamas' biggest?

DIAMOND: Yes, the Israeli military says that this is the biggest tunnel that they have actually discovered in the Gaza Strip since they have conducted ground operations detecting, clearing and destroying dozens of tunnels over the course of the last several weeks.

But unlike most of those tunnels, where you would have to walk single file, as you can see, this tunnel is far wider, big enough to drive a large vehicle through it. It goes as far as 50 meters underground, and it's part of a 2.5-mile network of tunnels.

It does not cross from Gaza into Israel. But it did come out about a quarter-mile away from the Erez crossing, which is one of the main crossing points between Israel and Gaza, which is where Hamas terrorists attacked on October 7. They attack that crossing, and used it to get into Israel and attack some of those border communities.

It's not clear that this tunnel was used on October 7, but it is an indication of the extent of Hamas has resources and its abilities to build out these tunnel networks, hundreds of miles of which exists, according to Hamas leaders.

Now, interestingly, the Israeli military actually says that they secured and -- they discovered in secure this tunnel weeks ago. It was only over the last couple of days that they actually chose to reveal it to the public, which is some indication of where they want to shift the spotlight, especially as there is mounting U.S. pressure over mounting civilian casualties in Gaza.

Clearly, they are choosing this moment now to reveal this tunnel and put the focus back on that.

SANCHEZ: And, Natasha, to Jeremy's point about mounting pressure from the United States, Secretary Lloyd Austin the latest U.S. official to visit Israel, demanding that they focus more on preventing the loss of civilian life in Gaza.

Specifically, what message is the U.S. hoping to send with his visit and his rhetoric?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Well, Secretary Austin laid out during a press conference earlier today the discussions that he had had with Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and also, of course, the Israeli war cabinet, and even Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the different phases of Israel's campaign in Gaza and the need to transition to a different phase, of course, when the time is right.

Austin emphasized that it is, of course, not the United States' prerogative to dictate to Israel when it moves into a next phase that is perhaps more surgical and targeted and not the large-scale, high- intensity operation that we are seeing right now. But he said a number of times in his remarks, very subtly, that the U.S. does see this campaign operating in different phases.

And he mentioned more than once that the next phase could potentially be that more limited scope of an operation that perhaps will not lead to the high number of civilian casualties that we are seeing right now. Yoav Gallant, who is the Israeli defense minister, he was not necessarily on the same page.

However, it was a very nuanced kind of back-and-forth. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AUSTIN: This is Israel's operation. And I'm not here to dictate timelines or terms. Our support to Israel's right to defend itself is ironclad. We also have some great thoughts about how to transition from high-intensity operations to lower-intensity and more surgical operations.

YOAV GALLANT, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): We will continue to operate in different levels of intensity, according to the situation in the region. So, all in all, there is no -- there is no clock that is running.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERTRAND: So, Austin making clear that the U.S. is not trying to dictate how the Israelis are going to be carrying out their operations in the future, and Gallant saying that he does not believe that there is a timeline here and that the Israelis are essentially going to shift to a new phase when they deem that the time is right to do so.

But this is all public-facing, right? Behind the scenes, we have been reporting that U.S. officials have been putting pressure on the Israelis to transition to a more surgical, targeted approach, ideally by the end of December, but perhaps by early January, because of the mounting international pressure and condemnation on Israel's campaign in Gaza that has killed so many civilians, guys.

SANCHEZ: Natasha Bertrand from the Pentagon, Jeremy Diamond from Tel Aviv, thank you both.

Let's dig deeper now with retired U.S. Army Major Mike Lyons.

Sir, thank you so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us.

On Secretary Lloyd Austin's visit, he's trying to, with Israeli officials, assess the campaign to date and obviously drilling down on the loss of civilian life in Gaza. How would you assess the campaign so far and Israel's ability to limit those deaths?

MAJ. MIKE LYONS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Boris, I took that press conference a little different.

I think they're on the same page as Israel, and the key is the whole timeline thing. The United States wants Israel to abide by some timeline. At least, that's what we thought. In the past few weeks, I think both sides were talking past each other, when you had the president say that Israel needs to stop its indiscriminate bombing.

[13:10:05]

And Israel would claim it's never done that. Now, they recognized from the very beginning this was going to be a very long campaign. And now the campaign is in two fronts. There's one in the north, as they fight Hamas' capability to wage war north of their border doing clearing operations. And then, in the south, it looked like they're going after leadership.

So -- and, again, you heard both the IDF defense minister and Secretary Austin talk about no specific timeline. So, I think that pretty much is open. I think, in both cases, they're talking to their respective domestic audiences. But, from my perspective, I think that United States is going to support Israel for as long as they think it takes in order to have Hamas surrender conventionally. That's going to be the key right now.

SANCHEZ: So, the question of domestic support for Israel, Israeli officials have come under fire for the deaths of those three civilians -- three hostages mistakenly killed last week.

Given that there are protests in the streets, that there are a lot of people angry over this that are concerned about the well-being of those hostages in Gaza, how likely do you think it is that Israel might rework its current strategy?

LYONS: I think the strategy is the same, in that they're going to try to get as many hostages back as they can alive. But their initial, primary objective is to defeat Hamas. And they're not going to stop until they do that.

Commanders expect losses. There's going to be the collateral damage of civilians, and what happened to those hostages is going to cause the tactics to change on the ground, the rules of engagement, perhaps get the message out to try to figure out a way where hostages can signal IDF soldiers.

But when you're on the ground, face-to-face in what is the most difficult combat operation, that's urban operations there within such a built-up area with so many civilians, of which Hamas hides behind, it -- it wasn't a good expectation that they were going to get 100 percent.

So, to your point, the tactics will change, but I don't think the strategy is going to change a bit.

KEILAR: So this pressure, then, to shift the strategy to try to reduce that collateral damage, the deaths of civilians, do you see that, in a way, just as lip surface -- lip service, absent the U.S. putting any conditions on military aid that it gives Israel?

LYONS: You know, that's probably a good way to put it. It's not that they don't care.

From how Israel seems to be propagating their combat operations, they're doing what they can. But, again, like I said, commanders expect losses. They don't want -- they recognize that they're losing the propaganda war. I had reports of the Gaza Health Ministry reporting 20,000 deaths. Who knows whether that's right or not.

I mean, there's no one that really understands. We can't take anything that's coming out of that side as the truth. So I think that it's not that it's lip service. I think that they're doing what they can to try to maintain the high ground in order to, again, defeat Hamas on conventional terms.

They'd have to get some kind of surrender. Hamas is trying to drag Israel down to their level, fight this behind civilians, and make it look like Israel is killing civilians. Israel is trying to propagate it on what are using the wars of law and land warfare.

KEILAR: Israel has not at this point, Mike, killed or captured any senior Hamas leaders. Is that problematic for them?

LYONS: Yes, I think it is.

I think that you can go and target that. I think the challenge there is, those senior leaders are surrounded even by more civilians, and they're not necessarily in Gaza. They're throughout the world. That's going to take special operations. Those are those surgical things.

Look how long it took for us to try to find Osama bin Laden. I mean, so I think that is something they have to be very, very careful with. And if you talk about the Hamas soldiers hiding behind civilians, those Hamas leaders are hiding behind layers and layers of civilians. They're with their families.

And so Israel can't risk having collateral damage when they go after one of them.

KEILAR: All right, Major Mike Lyons, thank you so much for your analysis. We appreciate it.

LYONS: Thanks.

KEILAR: Donald Trump, the current GOP front-runner, is hammering home his message on immigration to voters with just four weeks left before the Iowa caucuses.

However, it is the language he is using that is raising alarm bells and eyebrows. We're going to take a closer look at this.

Plus: Millions of Americans up and down the East Coast are facing pretty severe weather today. This is already having an impact on travel as we're ramping up here into a busy holiday week.

And respiratory illnesses are spreading fast, hitting big portions of the country right now, and the CDC says we haven't even seen the peak. So, what you need to know to keep your family safe -- when we're back.

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[13:18:43]

SANCHEZ: Right now, Congress is scrambling to hash out a last-minute holiday deal on immigration amid a surge of encounters at the Southern border. The influx is creating a humanitarian crisis that's overwhelming

nearby towns and also straining the resources of cities far from the border. Last month, immigration authorities say they apprehended about 192,000 migrants, a 2 percent increase over October, and a rate that doesn't appear to be subsiding this month.

In the first two weeks of December, there are more than 37,000 apprehensions in the Tucson Sector alone. And in Texas, after thousands of border crossings in recent days, officials have suspended operations at two international railway crossings.

KEILAR: And as this plays out, the rhetoric around immigration in the country is reaching some pretty grotesque new lows.

The main culprit? The GOP front-runner and former President Donald Trump. We're going to break down his ugly comments about foreigners.

First, though, let's get an update from Capitol Hill, where we have our CNN chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju.

Manu, what is the status of these talks in the Senate?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, prospects of going grim of getting a deal that can pass the Senate this week.

The majority leader in the Senate, Chuck Schumer, announced that he would delay the start of the holiday recess, bring back senators today, in the hopes that it deal could be reached and free up aid to Ukraine, aid to Israel and a vote could happen this week.

[13:20:06]

But there's a problem. Despite a weekend of talks, marathon negotiations between a handful of senators over this specific issue about new border policy, more restrictive border policies that Republicans have called for, there is still no deal in principle.

And even if there was a deal, in principle, it would take time to draft the legislative text to actually give members a chance to review it, put it on the floor of the Senate, get it out of the Senate. And the House has already gone until January, which is when a lot of Senate Republicans are saying punt this whole issue until early part of January, when the House gets back.

So, a lot of complications about getting this over the finish line in the Senate with no deal on border security. Republicans say that must be dealt with first before they will agree to approving aid to Ukraine, aid to Israel. So all this continues to be tied up at this crucial moment, as the White House warns for immediate action when it comes to Ukraine.

SANCHEZ: Manu, what about the Trump factor? So many of the Republicans on the Hill, as we have seen before, follow his lead. If he's campaigning about passing more restrictive immigration policy, and his allies wind up backing them in this sort of compromise bill, doesn't that deliver a win to the White House? RAJU: It could be very complicated, once this deal, if it does come together -- you imagine the deal that could be raised that Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader, agrees with, that President Biden agrees with, most likely does not go nearly as far as Donald Trump would like.

And Donald Trump undoubtedly will come out then in that case and rail against it. That would make it much harder. Even if the Senate Republicans, Senate Republican leaders get behind this deal, Senate Republicans are a part of this deal, that would make it much harder, in particular, getting this through the GOP-led House, where Donald Trump has enormous influence, including with members of the Republican leadership, which just raises a lot of questions here.

But even if a deal is reached in the Senate, they're able to get something through, can it pass the House, where Republicans could rebel against it? Some of those hard-liners told me that they will not support a bill that compromises from the GOP's hard-line position, a bill that passed earlier this year known as H.R.2.

Senate Democrats say H.R.2 should go nowhere. Donald Trump, in a lot of ways, his rhetoric goes further than H.R.2. So it shows you the real challenges in getting things done, and not to mention members on the left, progressives, in particular, are raising serious alarms of the concessions the White House is making for more restrictive border policies, expanding expulsion authority, and the like, which shows you the very difficult and narrow path to get a deal that can become law -- guys.

KEILAR: Yes, really hard to see where they will come together on this.

Manu, thank you for that report.

Former President Trump used fears about immigration as a launching point for his first presidential run more than eight years ago. And now he is using the disarray at the border to stoke fear among his supporters all over again.

This time, though, he is blatantly invoking Nazi rhetoric.

SANCHEZ: Let's bring it in CNN's Omar Jimenez has been tracking this.

So, Omar, walk us through Trump's latest comments.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so these latest comments came as former president was campaigning over the weekend in New Hampshire and in Nevada as well.

But, in New Hampshire, these are the comments that have gotten the most attention. President Trump said that migrants and illegal immigration was poisoning the blood of this country. And, obviously, when you talk about Nazi rhetoric, it's similar to the writings of Adolf Hitler, when he mentioned poisoning in regards to foreigners coming into Germany at that point. So those are the correlations that experts are looking at on this

front. But what is clear is, we're a month away from the Iowa caucuses. And this wasn't just a turn of phrase. It's something that he has said repeatedly. He did so an early October as well.

So it seems to be part of at least some sort of strategy to make sure that this is what voters are hearing from him in this final run-up. But it wasn't just that. He also framed what would potentially be a general election between him and President Biden. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (R) AND CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Joe Biden is a threat to democracy. He's a threat. Even Vladimir Putin -- has anybody ever heard of Vladimir Putin? -- of Russia says that Biden's -- and this is a quote -- politically motivated persecution of his political rival is very good for Russia, because it shows the rottenness of the American political system, which cannot pretend to teach others about democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now, as you can imagine, the Biden campaign pushed back on that pretty forcefully, writing that: "Donald Trump channeled his role models, as he parroted Adolf Hitler, praised Kim Jong-un and quoted Vladimir Putin, while running for president on a promise to rule as a dictator and threaten American democracy."

So, look, regardless of where people feel, these are the messages that are coming out of this campaign again in the lead-up to Iowa. And they clearly feel that it's messaging that will work.

[13:25:04]

KEILAR: How are Republicans, other Republicans, reacting to this, Omar?

JIMENEZ: Yes, so we're seeing a wide array.

For starters, Chris Christie, who I think it's no secret is no friend of Donald Trump these days, called it disgusting, said even that this was a dog whistle to folks who are going through real struggles, whether it's the economy or otherwise, and trying to pin it on a specific group of people.

Separate -- while it's not a direct response, Nikki Haley's campaign did just come out with an ad saying that she wants to leave behind the chaos of the past, which many have looked to as being a reference to people like President Trump and comments like these.

So we're going to continue to see sort of where these candidates paint the lines of where they stand on these particular issues. But, clearly -- and Haley, for one, is someone who has been searching in places like New Hampshire, for example, and are hoping to capitalize on some of the pitfalls that someone like the former president has, despite him having amassed this lead, at least as far as what polls have shown, over what has now been months.

A lot can happen in the final weeks. And, of course, they're hoping that it goes in their favor.

SANCHEZ: It seems to have had no effect on Donald Trump's polling numbers.

JIMENEZ: Yes.

SANCHEZ: Omar Jimenez, thanks so much for the update.

JIMENEZ: Of course.

SANCHEZ: Well, the tab just keeps getting bigger, Southwest Airlines still paying for that holiday meltdown last year, the federal government now hitting the company with a massive fine.

And a pre-holiday storm now hammering the Northeast. How it's going to impact travel -- when we come back.

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