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Trump Barred From 2024 Primary Ballot In Colorado; Today: GOP's Chip Roy Campaigns With DeSantis In Iowa; Rep. Chip Roy, (R-TX), Is Interviewed About Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley, Donald Trump. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired December 20, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:39]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Not eligible to run for president. For now, lawyers for Donald Trump vowing to fight the Colorado Supreme Court ruling that could keep him off the ballot in 2024. Where this fight goes now and how fast?

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: And here's not a surprise, Trump's Republican rivals are rushing to defend him after this unprecedented ruling. We're in Iowa as the candidate stormed the campaign trail with less than a month to make their cases to voters before the caucuses.

BOLDUAN: And new images from inside the tunnels built by Hamas. "The New York Times" reporter who was taken inside is our guest.

I'm Kate Bolduan was Sara Sidner. John Berman is off today. This is CNN News Central.

SIDNER: This morning, Donald Trump is vowing to fight back after being booted from the ballot in Colorado. Last night, in a stunning decision, the Colorado Supreme Court ruled the former president is not eligible to be a presidential candidate in 2024 because he, quote, "engaged in insurrection," citing the 14th Amendment. The majority opinion came to the conclusion that Trump not only incited but had, quote, "direct participation" in the events on January 6. But Donald Trump obviously not backing down. His team is promising to appeal the decision to the Supreme Court. CNN's Marshall Cohen is joining us now from D.C.

Marshall, can you just sort of walk us through how the Colorado Supreme Court came to this ruling and explained it all?

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Hey, Sara, good morning. This was a historic ruling and a historic moment for our country in so many ways. But as you mentioned, it won't be the final word, as the U.S. Supreme Court looms over all of this. But let's look at that decision from the Colorado Supreme Court. Remember, this is all about the 14th Amendment, which was ratified after the Civil War, it says that anyone who swears an oath to the Constitution and then breaks that oath and violates the Constitution by engaging in an insurrection, you can't go back to serving the public, you are disqualified. And the Colorado Supreme Court, the majority and a four to three decision said that that is exactly what Donald Trump did. He engaged in insurrection, and now he is ineligible to run again for president. Let me read for you a quote from the majority opinion that carried the day in Colorado. The justices wrote that President "Trump did not merely incite the insurrection. Even when the siege on the Capitol was fully underway, he continued to support it by repeatedly demanding that might Vice President Mike Pence refuse to perform his constitutional duty, and by calling senators to persuade them to stop the counting of electoral votes.

These actions constituted overt, voluntary and direct participation in the insurrection." Because he participated in the insurrection he is disqualified from office. That was the majority. But Sara, there was also a dissent. It was a four to three opinion. And they took some issues with several of the rationales put forward to remove Trump from the ballot.

Let me read for you one of the dissenting opinions. This one said that "In the absence of an insurrection related conviction, I would hold that a request to disqualify a candidate under Section Three is not a proper cause of action." It's true that Trump has not been charged with the crime of insurrection. He's facing other charges in the federal election subversion case, but he wasn't charged with insurrection. And according to this justice, and according to a lot of people on the Trump side, without that type of charge, you can't be disqualified.

Ultimately, it will be up to the U.S. Supreme Court to hash this all out. Sara.

SIDNER: And of course, there is reaction to this. How are both sides reacting to this ruling?

COHEN: Well, the challengers in this case they are taking a well- earned victory lap you know a lot of people, a lot of scholars and experts kind of laughed this off at the beginning, said it would never work. And look, it may not ultimately win at the U.S. Supreme Court, but they have a huge victory now. Take a listen to what Sean Grimsley, one of the lead attorneys for the plaintiffs. Here's what he told our colleague, Kaitlin Collins last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN GRIMSLEY, ATTY. FOR PLAINTIFFS IN COLORADO 14TH AMENDMENT CASE: And Donald Trump is the only person to blame for this. I understand that his supporters may be upset that he could be off the ballot but he needs to look in the mirror as to what he did on January 6 and the days leading up to it, he is the one and it is his actions that are going to be the thing that keeps him off the ballot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[10:05:14]

COHEN: Their argument, Sara, is that they are simply holding Trump accountable with the way that the Constitution provides accountability for insurrectionists. The other side of this, Donald Trump, his lawyers, his supporters, they are livid. And they have said that this is a massive abuse of the legal process. They have said that this is un-American, it's undemocratic. They've labeled it as election interference. And they have been making the case, Sara, that the only reason why they're doing this is to take Trump off the ballot through the courts, because they can't beat him in the polls.

SIDNER: Marshall Cohen, there was a lot more to come on this case. Thank you so much.

BOLDUAN: Now, the former president is using this unprecedented ruling as a fundraising opportunity, very quickly turning to campaign e- mails. In an e-mail sent last night, his campaign wrote the following, "This is how dictatorships are born. I, Donald Trump, will not let left wing judges steal the votes of a majority of Americans."

Now the Republicans running against Trump they're weighing in as well. Let's get to our CNN's Jeff Zeleny in Iowa, speaking to vote -- speaking to caucus goers, hearing from the candidates. What are you hearing from the other Republicans and how are they -- and how they are responding to this?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Kate, good morning. I mean, the Republican rivals to former President Donald Trump had just begun making closing arguments and trying to really draw some distinctions with him and his campaign. That all changed. Last night, certainly they have been circling the wagons and defending Donald Trump.

We were just hearing a few moments ago from Florida Governor Ron DeSantis who was speaking to a group of conservatives at a breakfast here this morning. He had this to say about that Colorado ruling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the U.S. Supreme Court is going to reverse that. But here's the larger thing of what the left in the media and the Democrats are doing, they're doing all this stuff to basically solidify support and the primary for him, get him into the general and the whole general election is going to be all this legal stuff. And look, it's unfair. They're abusing power, 100 percent. But the question is, is that going to work?

And I think they have a playbook that unfortunately will work, and it'll give Biden or the Democrat or whoever the ability to skate through this thing. That's their plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So saying the whole general election is going to be about illegal cases, perhaps not wrong about that. Kate, it's extraordinary to think of all the Supreme Court has really waiting on its desk fees, are weighty decisions involving the 2020 election campaign, the 2024 election campaign, they are having major rulings, including if he can be criminally prosecuted or if his name can be on the ballot. So as much as this campaign is being sort of litigated on the campaign trail, significant decisions are being made in the courtroom as well. So all of the rivals are defending Donald Trump saying voters should make these decisions.

But the biggest probably takeaway of all is that Donald Trump once again, benefits from all of this now just 26 days before voters start laying into this race. Kate.

BOLDUAN: It's great to see, Jeff, thank you.

And next hour, just a programming note, everybody, the Colorado Secretary of State Jena Griswold, she joins us to talk more about this Colorado Supreme Court decision and what it means what happens next.

SIDNER: All right, joining me now, former Assistant Special Watergate prosecutor, Nick Akerman.

All right, you have this decision by a Supreme Court in Colorado. And they have come back and said, he's not eligible, but he has not been convicted. And there has been no one so far that has actually been convicted of insurrection, other things, yes, high crimes, yes, but not insurrection. How did they come to this decision? How do you make this decision?

NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: Well, first of all, there is no requirement in the Constitution that you need to be convicted. Look if there are three other requirements for somebody to be president, you have to be 35 years old, you have to be born in the United States, and you have to have 14 months of residency. Nobody has ever suggested that there has to be a conviction or a civil action even that finds those facts.

The fact of the matter is, we've never had a president who's been involved in an insurrection before. This is the first time and there's no requirement that there be a conviction. That is just bogus.

SIDNER: It's really interesting, because when you think about that, that is the way most people think about punishment or taking some else about that there has to be some major thing that's been decided by the courts. That being said, let's look at the dissents in this. People saying there's no precedent in this so we shouldn't do it. Section Three of the 14th Amendment states that oath breaking into factionist can't serve as senators, they can't serve as representatives, they can't serve as presidential electors or hold any office civil or militarily under the United States or under any state. It does not specifically say president.

[10:10:14]

AKERMAN: No, but it does say officer.

SIDNER: OK.

AKERMAN: And clearly Donald Trump is an officer. In fact -- was an officer, I should say.

SIDNER: Yes.

AKERMAN: The Constitution itself refers to the President, at least in 25 different spots in the Constitution as an officer. So, that's another bogus argument. What's remarkable about this decision is they've addressed every single issue that's been raised against it, knowing that this was going to go before the U.S. Supreme Court.

SIDNER: They have already answered the questions that were going to be put in front of the court. And likely I'm hearing you say, this is going to end up at the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has a myriad of cases, dealing with the presidency, unprecedented number of cases dealing with the presidency, because of the cases against Donald Trump. How do you see this all playing out as we inch very close to an election?

AKERMAN: Well, I think what's going to happen is there are two cases that are really important. It's this one, and it's the one on presidential immunity.

SIDNER: Right.

AKERMAN: Now, Donald Trump is going to have to take the opposite position of what he's been taking on the presidential immunity case, and say that he can bypass the D.C. Court of Appeals and go directly to the Supreme Court. So he's going to be talking out of both sides of his mouth when he files his papers today in the immunity case. So that's not very helpful fact for Donald Trump. The court is going to feel compelled to take both of those cases to decide them immediately, there's a march 4 date scheduled for the criminal trial in the District of Columbia, they're going to take that very seriously. And they're also going to take this issue very seriously, because it doesn't just impact Colorado, it impacts --

SIDNER: Right.

AKERMAN: -- all 50 states. So this is going to have to be decided by the Supreme Court. And nobody should figure just because Trump appointed three of those justices that they're going to go his way.

This is the exact same argument or at least the feeling around the time of Watergate when the court then considered whether Richard Nixon had to produce his tapes. There were three appointees that Richard Nixon had on that court. And it was a unanimous decision forcing him to turn over those tapes.

SIDNER: You were there, you were involved, you saw it happen yourself, but we are in uncharted territory. And it is fascinating to sort of see because this is bigger than just obviously Donald Trump. This is about the presidency as a whole and how it operates in this country. And so we will all be watching. I know you will be.

AKERMAN: Absolutely.

SIDNER: All right. Thank you for saying it. Kate.

AKERMAN: Thank you. BOLDUAN: Coming up next for us, one of Ron DeSantis' biggest supporters, who's on the campaign trail with him in Iowa today joins us to weigh in on all of this. And also just in to CNN, we have new numbers that are giving a new sense of how Americans are feeling about the economy as we head into the holidays. And also what this can -- what -- where consumer confidence stands and what it means for the New Year. And it's an underground maze, we're going to speak to a reporter who was taken inside the labyrinth of tunnels built by Hamas in Gaza what he saw.

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[10:17:46]

BOLDUAN: This morning, Ron DeSantis is on the campaign trail once again in Iowa and it is crunch time for him and all of the Republican candidates as we are running racing barreling now towards the Iowa caucuses on January 15. The polls right now say Donald Trump remains the clear front runner, 30 plus points ahead in Iowa. But Ron DeSantis not giving up. On the trail with DeSantis today, Republican Congressman of Texas Chip Roy. And he joins us now from Iowa.

Congressman, thank you for coming in. You're in Iowa with Ron DeSantis. And I have heard you say many times, you do not put a lot of stock in the polls that I'm just citing about him being a distant second to Trump there. Do you consider anything short of a win in Iowa a victory for Ron DeSantis there?

REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): Well, I'm not looking through that lens, all right. Well, we need a victory for the American people. Governor DeSantis is the leader that I believe will provide that victory. And I think a lot of people on the ground in Iowa see it that way.

And you know, Iowans take this very seriously, right? They know that polls aren't going to decide who the president is going to be, they get to decide. All roads to the White House lead through Iowa. Iowans are convicted. And when they sit down and they meet with Governor DeSantis, they see a leader who has delivered.

He is time and time again proven that he will do what he said he would do. And he's done it on serious conservative principles, right? This is a time right now where people in Iowa want strong conservative leadership to push back on what we're seeing out of Biden with wide open borders, rampant inflation, and economy teetering, you know, worldwide, all sorts of instability with respect to what's going on in Israel in the Middle East and Russia and Ukraine. We need leadership right now that sorely lacking, but we need conservative leadership. We don't need a finger in the air from a certain governor from South Carolina more interested in saddling up with Wall Street donors.

And we don't need to be looking backwards talking about former President Trump's past and whether or not he's going to give another medal to Anthony Fauci. We need someone who can deliver for the American people like Governor DeSantis delivered for Florida.

BOLDUAN: A certain governor from South Carolina. I will say the governor -- this certain governor's name because that's exactly what I wanted to ask you about next. Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley, an outside groups supporting them. They've spent millions on campaign ads attacking each other.

[10:20:00]

ROY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: I was looking at the numbers this morning but DeSantis has spent relatively little in targeting Donald Trump, who you need -- who you need to be. Do you think that is good strategy when -- it doesn't matter if from 30 points ahead or 10 points ahead. He's clearly a formidable challenger.

ROY: Yes, well, the main purpose right now is we're getting Governor DeSantis' positive message out. But with respect to Governor Haley, I mean, look, they're the ones that have done $30 million combined in attacking Governor DeSantis. Now why would that be? Is that because Governor DeSantis can't win? That he's the guy that's, you know, he's falling?

Or is it that they view him as the front runner in Iowa, and they're attacking him? That's the truth. And look, we just saw what's going on with AFP and all of the big donors in New York, Wall Street saddling up Nikki Haley with a longtime relationships, doing deals with China and South Carolina, saddling up with Disney saying, oh, Disney wanted to come on up to South Carolina. When Governor DeSantis was taking on the woke mob and the corporate, you know, world, Governor Haley was trying to move them to South Carolina.

Look, the people of Iowa, they don't like that. They don't like someone who is more interested in expanding DACA at the border, who is all, you know, fine with having expanded immigration at the border when we need to secure it and certainly don't want to be inviting more people to come from Gaza who are affiliated with Hamas to come into our country, which Governor Haley has said she wants to do.

Now, look, she's a friend, I like Governor Haley, I'm going to support the Republican nominee, but we need a true tested conservative who doesn't just flap in the role.

BOLDUAN: Congressman, real quick.

ROY: And that's Governor DeSantis.

BOLDUAN: I just want to make sure I got this right because the control room was actually given me a time here in my ear. Who from Gaza is --

ROY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: I'm sorry, because I'm going to say this, I'm not going to go through and give the Nikki Haley defense on a lot of these positions, but these are a lot of what we're seeing in the attack ads.

ROY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: I do have -- but what is this about Gaza?

ROY: Well, I mean, Governor Haley was pretty sympathetic to saying we need to be opening our doors to bringing people in from Gaza and Palestinians during this conflict, which to me is barely troubling and dangerous. When we've right now got wide open borders, we've had 2 million getaways in our country. We had massive exploitation of the Israeli borders by people in Gaza that are affiliated with Hamas, why would we be doing that? And when she was with the United Nations, she did nothing to stop the flow of 12 and a half billion dollars to the United Nations. All the money going from UNRWA, they've got flowed to the Palestinians and funded Hamas in addition to Qatar.

And you know, when Governor DeSantis was in Congress saying, hey, what are we doing, allowing Qatar to allow money to be flowing on Hamas, and now Qatar is hosting half of Hamas while they're attacking Israel. There are a lot of differences between the candidates --

BOLDUAN: But also when you agree that Qatar has played a --

ROY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: -- Qatar has played a key role and a key role in getting even American hostages freed from Hamas's control.

ROY: Well, right now what we need is leadership in the White House that would end all of this, instead of allowing the, you know, our shipping channels to get shut down and allowing American hostage to get taken while we're projecting weakness rather than demonstrating strength. I'm not looking for like backdoor apologies for Qatar, for what they're doing to try to help with negotiations when they were a part of propping up Hamas in the first place. And Hamas is hanging out in Qatar right now.

So, you know, I think we need to do our job to stand strong in the world. Governor DeSantis is that guy. The American people see that, people of Iowa see that. And that's why I'm happy to be on the campaign trail here.

BOLDUAN: Let me ask you about what's the big news this morning, Colorado Supreme Court deciding that Donald Trump is --

ROY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: -- disqualified from the state's primary ballot? What's your reaction to that?

ROY: Yes, I mean, look, I think it's a terrible opinion, I think it'll get struck down by the Supreme Court. But this is all the kind of stuff the American people are tired of, they're tired of looking backwards. They don't want to be sitting there looking through the lens of whatever the latest story is going to be about what the next attacks going to be. They want to look forward. They want somebody who can surf for eight years.

They want somebody who's going to be able to present a vision that they can get behind, and they can follow. Somebody who's demonstrated success and increasing the economy in Florida, securing the communities in the streets, standing up to stop illegal immigration, you know, doing all the things that he's done to make Florida a net migration state where people are moving there. And they don't want to be talking about the Colorado Supreme Court. Like literally, you guys are asking about it when I'm in a gaggle, but nobody in the breakfast this morning that I was with, Iowans, was going, oh, man, the Colorado Supreme Court.

And there was one question because it was about Trump, but it was about whether or not we're going to have to focus on those questions.

BOLDUAN: Congressman, it's a historic ruling coming from a Supreme Court kicking -- removing a presidential candidate from a ballot. It's not like this is an immediate creation. I know you can respect that. It is news to be discussed.

ROY: Sure.

BOLDUAN: And I want to know what Ron DeSantis thinks about it, and that's why I also care what you think about it, because it gets to the question.

ROY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: It gets at what happened on January 6, and what role that Donald Trump played in. This is all intertwined. When you talk about the politics and the legal are two -- can be two very separate things here. Do you think with --

ROY: Right. Well, Kate --

BOLDUAN: -- as we've seen Donald Trump --

ROY: -- but I have to answer the question.

BOLDUAN: I know, I just want to ask you one more time.

[10:25:00]

ROY: Kate, I've answered -- yes, no, I've answered the question yesterday.

BOLDUAN: I said I've got a (ph) a question.

ROY: And so did Governor DeSantis in saying that we believe that it was clearly a wrong opinion by the Colorado Supreme Court. I believe it'll be struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court. I don't think it's unconstitutional. I think it's harassing the former president in ways that are completely inappropriate.

But here's the key issue. My point is, it wasn't really to say that you don't -- you shouldn't, you know, cover the question, it's to say this, the people in Iowa that I'm talking to, they're not talking about the Colorado Supreme Court, other than the extent to which it's about all we're focusing on are those questions about the former president. We're not focusing on inflation. We're not focusing on how we're going to end the internal combustion engine in Iowa right now.

Will that's going to impact Iowans, Texans, because this administration is going to move us to a fleet of electric vehicles, which will destroy the internal combustion engine, which drives up the price to goods and services for every American, drives up inflation is harming hardworking families. Let's stop that. Governor DeSantis would stop that. That's what Iowans are talking about. They care about their food bills, their electricity bills, having the ability to get a car they can afford, a house they can afford, interest rates coming down, a border being secure. They don't want to be talking about legal rulings because of the focus on the past issues with the president.

BOLDUAN: A lot of things happening on the trail and you are one of them. Congressman Chip Roy, thank you for coming in. Always appreciate your time.

ROY: Thanks, Kate. Merry Christmas.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

SIDNER: All right. Coming up, attitudes are changing. What new numbers are showing now about how consumers feel about the U.S. economy? Plus, Israeli military officials say they have uncovered some 1500 tunnels in Gaza. Ahead, I'll speak with "The New York Times Magazine" reporter Ronen Bergman, who went inside of those tunnels. Those incredible pictures and source rich insight next.

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