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Hamas' Influence Growing?; Mass Shooting in Prague; Special Counsel Asks Supreme Court to Rule on Trump Immunity Question. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 21, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:58]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: A rush to judgment. Special counsel Jack Smith urging the Supreme Court not to wait to decide a critical question concerning Donald Trump: Is he entitled to immunity for crimes he may have committed as president?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And growing influence. Two months of war brought on by Hamas' attack on Israel hasn't hurt the terror group's sway over Hamas. In fact, it may be the opposite.

And under fire again, Harvard's president now facing questions over whether she committed plagiarism, this after avoiding calls to resign over her congressional testimony on antisemitism. Can she survive another controversy?

We're following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: The special counsel prosecuting Donald Trump wants to fast- track a key dispute in the case right to the Supreme Court.

Today, Jack Smith again urged justices to weigh in now on whether the former president can be prosecuted for alleged crimes committed while in office. It's an issue that's never been tested before. So, a Supreme Court ruling here could change the course of American history or potentially make or break Jack Smith's case.

KEILAR: In today's filing, Smith argues: "The public interest in a prompt resolution of this case favors an immediate, definitive decision by this court. The charges here are of the utmost gravity."

That was, of course, in response to Trump's filing that came yesterday. And in a departure from what is usually the Trump legal playbook here, the former president asked the Supreme Court to stay out of this dispute.

CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez is here.

Evan, what else did Jack Smith argue here?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, the prosecutors here are arguing that the Supreme Court can simply look at 1974 and the Nixon case, where the Supreme Court similarly jumped over, leaped over the appeals court and directly took on the question of the former president -- the then-president of the United States.

And the question was, do you resolve these questions, these important constitutional questions about whether a former president could be prosecuted or not? In this case, the bottom line is, do voters have a right when they cast their ballots in 2024, do they have a right to know whether Donald Trump is a convicted criminal, or do they deserve to wait until after the election to find that out?

And so what the special counsel is saying in their filing today says -- here's what he says: "The stakes are at least as high," referring to Nixon, "if not higher. The resolution of the question presented is pivotal to whether the former president himself will stand trial, which is scheduled to begin in less than three months in the future. Enforcing federal criminal laws that prohibit such conduct is vital to protecting our constitutional processes and democracy itself."

They go on to point out that Donald Trump has had plenty of time to prepare for that trial. And, of course, Brianna, as you know, the appeals court has already scheduled oral arguments on January 9. So it is possible that we may see a quick ruling from the appeals court.

Jack Smith is taking no chances. He's saying the Supreme Court needs to at least take this case on now.

SANCHEZ: And, Evan, we also have some breaking news on Rudy Giuliani. He's filing for bankruptcy. The timing of that, of course, really significant.

PEREZ: Right. Absolutely.

It comes a day after a judge gave the OK for those two Georgia election workers, Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, to begin trying to collect on the $148 million verdict that they had gotten from a Washington jury just a few days ago because of the fact that Rudy Giuliani defamed them by telling lies about what they were doing after the 2020 election.

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What Rudy Giuliani's been saying all along, though, he's been saying for months in various legal filings that he is broke. And so, here, officially, he is declaring bankruptcy. He says that he has debts of $100 million to $500 million, and that he has assets of about $10 million.

So we always knew, obviously, that these women were going to have a tough time trying to collect on this really gigantic number, $148 million. Now Rudy Giuliani is saying that he has no such money, he doesn't have anything like that, and he's asking for bankruptcy court protection so he doesn't have to pay it -- guys.

KEILAR: All right Evan, thank you for that.

Let's bring in CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny. We have CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rodgers with us. Jennifer, it seems like ultimately this is an issue that is going to

be going to the Supreme Court. So what is the case for just letting the lower court work through this first?

PEREZ: Sure. That's fine. Sure. All right.

KEILAR: All right, we are dealing with an audio issue there, I think. We're going to try to fix this, so that we can hear Jennifer.

Let's go.

Jennifer, can you hear us?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I can hear you.

KEILAR: OK, great. Well, that's great.

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: That means we can proceed here.

What's the argument here for just letting this work through the lower court?

RODGERS: So, the argument is that that's the way it's normally done.

If the lower court can consider it, deliberate, issue a written opinion, that the Supreme Court can utilize that opinion in their reasoning as they consider whether or not to affirm or overturn, that's the way it's normally done.

But there are lots of arguments for pushing it through more quickly. And it's a little ironic that the former president, given how many times his administration asked to leapfrog over appellate courts in seeking emergency authorizations from the Supreme Court, is now saying to slow it down, not to mention that it's his motion, his motion to dismiss, that is up for consideration.

So they're certainly well-equipped to handle it quickly. And I hope that that's what they do, given the pendency of the trial date.

KEILAR: How quickly are we talking about this? Here.

RODGERS: They can handle it in weeks. I don't think that it will be days. There are serious issues to consider here that are matters of first impression. The notion of presidential immunity in this context has not been decided before.

But I think in a matter of weeks is enough time to consider all the arguments and deliberate and issue a decision.

SANCHEZ: Jeff, you have been on the road spending a lot of time in Iowa, right? We're just about a month, less than a month from the first caucus.

I'm wondering how voters receive this news about Donald Trump, if they saw it at all as a liability.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, in the short term, it's a strength for the former president, because, once again, he is using this to play the victim. And Republicans are rallying around him.

We really have seen it time and time again this year, starting back in April with the first indictment in Manhattan and then to Georgia. We saw how much money he made off of something as simple as a mug shot. I mean, he uses all of these sort of moments in time in the legal system, all separate cases, all completely different charges or civil cases or questions, but the same defense. People rally around him.

I did talk with voters because the Colorado ruling came just a minutes before he walked on stage there, but they were reading their phones and things. Some of it is sort of confusing. Like, what does this mean? Why is he off the ballot?

So I think we just have to realize that people are living their lives and not following all of these cases. I mean, we can barely keep up with all the different cases. So the one commonality is that they believe he's under attack.

And Republican rivals are saying -- the most any of them are saying is, do you really want this drama and chaos going into 2024? But, really, they're saying, even Chris Christie, who's the biggest critic of all, saying voters should decide Donald Trump's fate, not courts.

SANCHEZ: Jeff, you mentioned his Republican rivals, Chris Christie, but Ron DeSantis had kind of a unique spin on the Colorado decision. Walk us through that.

ZELENY: Sort of a conspiracy theory. He said the Democrats are trying to make Donald Trump the nominee, because they think he will be easier to beat, so that's why he's under attack from the judicial system.

Of course, there's nothing to that specifically. The Democrats, the Biden administration are not behind these rulings. These are separate jurisdictions, but he's saying and he's been along saying that Democrats want Trump to be the nominee because he's a weaker opponent than a DeSantis would be. But the challenge for DeSantis is winning the Republican primary.

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So, look, I thought that Nikki Haley's answer was interesting. She said, we're going to win this the right way. Judges shouldn't decide this, but also said, this election should be about you. It should not be about court cases and other things.

So, they're in a pickle here, obviously, because he still controls the Republican Party.

KEILAR: Yes.

Jennifer, fact-check that for us. Who is behind all of these cases? RODGERS: Well, different people, Brianna, I mean, except the two that

are brought by Jack Smith, the special counsel. But those are just two of the criminal cases. A third is brought by Fulton County local prosecutor. A fourth is brought by Manhattan's local prosecutor.

And then there are a variety of civil matters brought against the former president. This Colorado matter is brought by a nonprofit group, a legal advocacy group that's not affiliated with the Democrats or any other political party. So, they're from all over the place, which should kind of undercut any sort of conspiracy theories about what Democrats or the White House are trying to do to Trump in advance of the election.

SANCHEZ: Jennifer Rodgers, Jeff Zeleny, appreciate the time. Thank you both.

To other news now, specifically out of Europe. We're following a mass shooting there, one that's left at least 15 people dead in Prague in the Czech Republic. According to police, another 25 were injured in that shooting.

KEILAR: Yes, this happened at a university there in the Czech capital. Bystanders took a picture. And it's unbelievable.

Look here. You see people here huddled. They are holding tight to a ledge hiding from the shooter, just a chilling image from a place that really doesn't see this kind of violence very often.

CNN's Melissa Bell is with us now on this.

Melissa, just stunning to see that photo. What can you tell us about this?

MELISSA BELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: All the more so, Brianna, because that is a very high ledge that they were cowering on when it happened. These would have been scenes of extreme violence while this shooting took place.

And, as you said, I think it's really important to put it into the context that these sorts of mass shootings are very rare here on the European continent. Now, the Czech Republic is a slight anomaly. There is much more liberal gun laws than there are elsewhere in Europe, but, still, this is not something they have seen in decades.

And it's likely to prove to be the deadliest shooting in peacetime in the country's history, so extremely shocking scenes. We're finding out a little bit more, Boris and Brianna, about exactly what happened and who this young man was, philosophy student at the faculty of arts of the university, the Charles University in Prague, where he went on the rampage.

And what we understand is that this 24-year-old student had killed his father in his home village a couple of hours from the Czech capital before making his way to his university. Now, police had been given a tip-off. They understood that he was planning to kill himself at the university. They cordoned off the building at which he was due to have a lecture this afternoon.

And it was, in fact, in another building that he carried out his rampage. And the toll is quite horrifying. There are at least 15 dead. But of the 24 to 25 people that he managed to injure, nine of them are severely wounded. So this is a toll, sadly -- and police have been fairly clear about -- this that could yet rise.

But it would have been a busy campus university in the afternoon when he went on his rampage. We don't know what sort of weapons he used. We do know that he was carrying a permit and had several weapons, firearms at his disposal, but extremely shocking scenes.

And we know that the Czech prime minister, interior minister, due there on the scene, with lots of expressions of solidarity, but also a deep shock expressed by other European leaders throughout the course of the day -- Brianna and Boris.

KEILAR: Melissa, are you saying they cordoned off a particular building before he showed up, and instead he went to a different location?

BELL: That's right.

KEILAR: OK.

BELL: And he went to a different location, exactly.

KEILAR: Big questions. Similar things have happened in the U.S. And that's going to raise a lot of questions about this.

Melissa Bell, thank you for that report.

The waiting apparently far from over for the families of hostages held by Hamas, the group giving Israel an ultimatum, one that Israel is unlikely to accept.

SANCHEZ: And targeted in prison. An American wrongfully imprisoned in Russia says he was attacked by another inmate and an official is actually instigating assaults on him.

That's next on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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SANCHEZ: The prospect of another hostage release deal appears, at least for now, to be off the table in the Middle East, Hamas announcing today it will not agree to any hostage talks until after Israel ends its military operation in Gaza.

KEILAR: And Hamas' new rejection of these talks comes as U.S. intel agencies are warning about the group's rise in popularity since the October 7 terror attack.

New analysis shows Hamas' credibility and influence have grown dramatically across some parts of the Arab and Muslim world.

Let's begin there, CNN's Katie Bo Lillis joining us now on this.

Katie Bo, this is your reporting. What is U.S. intel saying here?

KATIE BO LILLIS, CNN REPORTER: Yes, so, Brianna, the U.S. intelligence community has been pretty closely tracking how the October 7 attack has impacted Hamas' influence and popularity inside not just the Palestinian territories, but across different parts of the Arab and Muslim world, and I think especially amongst extremist groups that share an ideology with Hamas.

And what they have seen is that Hamas got a pretty major credibility bump after October 7. And there's a couple of reasons for this. One is that, from a purely operational perspective, October 7, this truly terrible attack, was wildly successful. And since then, Hamas has been able to sort of use the hostages that it took to successfully negotiate the release of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.

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So, Hamas has essentially been able to cast itself as a defender of the Palestinian cause, this kind of lone armed force fighting back against Israel, which, of course, is seen by some communities as this brutal oppressor. And we can see kind of a couple of the indicators that intelligence officials are tracking publicly.

There's protests in Jordan, where Hamas' name has been chanted positively. There's some polling data that shows Hamas' popularity in the West Bank rose after October 7. And there have been, of course, public warnings from us and European officials of a heightened risk of potential lone wolf attacks by extremists inspired by Hamas.

SANCHEZ: What are officials specifically worried about there?

LILLIS: Yes.

So, of course, we -- some of the officials that we spoke to as part of the reporting here are deeply concerned that Israel's relentless bombardment of Gaza, which has led to this, of course, stream of images of civilian suffering that have been going viral, is only going to exacerbate this dynamic and further legitimize Hamas and potentially radicalize others both inside and outside of Gaza, even though, of course, we know that Hamas is hiding itself among civilians and carried out unspeakable atrocities on October 7.

But Lloyd Austin, the defense secretary, really kind of summed up some of those concerns earlier this month. He said, in this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.

So I think it's very important to keep in mind that this kind of flurry of assessments is sort of floating around, as we see the Biden administration sort of increasingly make more and more pointed warnings to Israel, both in public and in private, about the need to protect civilians, even as they are supporting Israel's right to try to decapitate Hamas, from a leadership perspective.

KEILAR: They have a right to respond, but we know that killing civilians creates terrorists.

LILLIS: Exactly.

KEILAR: Certainly, in the U.S., we are well aware of that.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

KEILAR: Excellent reporting, Katie Bo. Thank you for that.

LILLIS: Thanks so much, guys.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Meantime, today, the U.N. Security Council may vote on a resolution calling to suspend the fighting in Gaza, so desperately needed aid could be delivered to the enclave.

KEILAR: The vote has already been delayed three times this week, as President Biden has said U.S. support for the resolution is still unresolved.

Joining us now, we have retired Army Major General James "Spider" Marks.

General, this expected U.N. Security Council vote is part of growing global pressure on Israel, as Hamas is rejecting these hostage talks until Israel ends its military operation in Gaza. How do you think Israel should proceed here?

BRIG. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think Israel only listens to the United States.

I mean, good luck in the U.N. I don't think they have much credibility in terms of the voice that Israel is listening to. When the U.S. speaks, Israel is going to listen. Look, all the support that's been garnered globally that does exist for Israel right now is as a result of the United States' efforts.

So, Israel, their government, their military will pay attention to what Lloyd Austin is saying, what the president is saying, what Secretary Blinken is talking about. That's about it.

SANCHEZ: General Marks, given this latest intel that Hamas is growing in popularity, not only across the region, but across the world potentially, Israel is trying to ramp up operations in Gaza, but how realistic is their goal of fully defeating Hamas, when, as we pointed out with Katie Bo, every civilian that's killed leads to more terrorists?

MARKS: No, it really does.

That is the issue. Can Israel achieve a level of success and then declare victory, declare mission accomplished, even though that narrative will have a lot of hair on it, right, from our past history? But the deal is, they need to come to a conclusion sooner, rather than later, which means I'm not confident that Israel will -- in their heart of hearts, in their public -- at least in their public assessment, will say that Hamas is not defeated.

They will say Hamas is defeated, understanding totally that they have really pushed the horizon out in terms of destroying Hamas. And now the focus needs to be on the hostage issue. How do you get the hostages recovered? What cost is there in order to do that?

Israel has indicated any terrorist now or anybody that's in jail right now in Israel is a known terrorist, and they're going to have to release them, which is almost a nonstarter.

So I think what we're talking about, destruction of Hamas is going to take more time. They will defer to that. Let's get the hostages back. Israel will not let up on trying to go after Hamas, but it will be a different type of an engagement. It won't look like this. It'll be a longer-term strategy of trying to find leadership and continue to plug away and work on the infrastructure.

KEILAR: I mean, it's easy, right, to imagine Israel's perspective here, General. They say, oh, America, that's rich coming from you, right, coming out of these forever wars.

But it really does come down to, or it should, what do -- does this generation of Israelis want to leave for their children and for their grandchildren?

[13:25:04]

So, with that in mind, how do you convince Israeli leaders that maybe some restraint and being a little more exacting is the way to go here?

MARKS: No, you're exactly -- you're exactly correct.

Look, humanitarian assistance and combat operations can take place simultaneously. That's not a stretch. That can happen. You don't have a complete pause -- you don't necessarily have to have a complete pause in military operations to get humanitarian support in there. That's kind of point number one.

Point number two -- and the Israelis work this. Go back to the '73 Yom Kippur War, six years after that, where Israel almost lost it all. You had the Camp David accords. So, I think Israel must understand 6 October is not where you go back. That doesn't exist anymore. We have to move forward.

There has to be an element of optimism. Ironically, there's got to be an element of optimism coming out of this fight that things can be different. Whatever the solution looks like, whether it's a two-state -- could it be a one-state? Kind of doubt it. But what are the solutions that are possible, so you don't go back to this antebellum?

You cannot go back to what 6 October looked like. The Israelis must understand that. So what are the accommodations? What are the sacrifices now? Trade space for time. Hamas and terrorist organizations, Iranian proxies have got to go away. That leadership -- all those leaders should be slaughtered, but you can't do it this way.

And the world is vilifying Israel for what they're trying to accomplish.

KEILAR: Yes, it takes a lot of creativity, which is, I think, hard to demand in the fog of war. But that's real leadership. So we will see if they rise to that occasion.

Spider Marks, great to have you. Thank you.

MARKS: Thank you, folks.

KEILAR: Next on CNN NEWS CENTRAL: Harvard's president was able to survive calls for her resignation after a public relations disaster on Capitol Hill, but a new controversy is aimed right at her integrity as an academic.

SANCHEZ: And attacks on shipping through the Red Sea could hit another retailer. We're going to tell you the latest company impacted by the attacks and what it could mean for store shelves near you.

Stay with us.

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