Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Special Counsel Tells Supreme Court It's "Vital" To Consider Presidential Immunity Dispute Now; At Least 14 Dead In Shooting At University In Prague; White House Says Israel Has Acknowledged The Need To Transition To "Lower-Intensity" Military Campaign. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired December 21, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:55]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: "The stakes are high," those words coming from Jack Smith as he responds to Trump's legal team about the federal elections case. The Special Counsel once again pushing the Supreme Court to quickly take up the dispute over whether Trump has presidential immunity, Smith going so far as to invoke Watergate and Richard Nixon.

Plus, chaos on the streets of Prague, at least 14 people are dead after a shooting at a university. This picture now emblematic of the desperate lengths that students went to - to keep themselves out of harm's way, they're hiding on a ledge high above the ground. The latest from the region.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Unbelievable picture.

Plus, hostage talks hitting a major snag after Hamas says there will be no negotiations until the Israeli military operation in Gaza is over.

In the meantime, disturbing new warnings from U.S. intelligence agencies showing that the credibility and influence of Hamas has grown since the brutal October 7th attack on Israel.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: American democracy itself hanging in the balance that is the argument that Special Counsel Jack Smith makes in this new Supreme Court filing. He's saying that these nine justices must weigh in immediately to determine once and for all whether former president Trump or any ex-president can go on trial for alleged crimes they may have committed while in office.

SANCHEZ: Now, Trump's lawyer has previously asked the Supreme Court to stay out of this to let the appeals court process play out. We are in uncharted territory for the United States. It's something that we've said now multiple times over the last few years.

This case appears to be headed to the Supreme Court no matter what. The question now is when.

Let's break this all down with CNN Justice Correspondent, Jessica Schneider, CNN Supreme Court Analyst, Joan Biskupic, and CNN Legal Analyst Michael Moore.

First, Jessica, to you, walk us through this filing by the Special Counsel.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this was the final briefing, potentially before the Supreme Court really decides whether they're going to take this case up quickly. And Jack Smith once again reiterating how important this is to the public interest, to the country, to the Constitution to take this question up immediately, because, of course, the Trump team is saying let this play out, let the appeals process play out, let this be heard.

Because the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals has already expedited this. They're going to hear oral arguments on January 9th. Jack Smith is saying, look, Supreme Court, you already - you are going to have to be the ultimate decider. We need to move this along and have you decide very quickly.

And I'll read this from the filing that just happened a few hours ago. It says, "The public interest in a prompt resolution of this case favors an immediate, definitive decision by this Court. The charges here are of the utmost gravity. This case involves - for the first time in our Nation's history - criminal charges against a former president based on his actions while in office."

And, of course, referencing U.S. v. Nixon and talking about how the Supreme Court in that case expedited the briefings and even 16 days after arguments there came up with the decision saying you should follow that precedent and really expedite this decision as well.

KEILAR: Joan, it seems like there would be a public interest in voters knowing before they vote if someone who is guilty of election subversion is someone they are either voting for or against, does the court see it that way though?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Well, the court is not only being reminded of U.S. v. Nixon, it's also going - Jack Smith and his team is also going back to the 1800's Marbury v. Madison and other huge rulings involving separation of powers, first principles, saying this is important for the country democracy. And since you, Supreme Court, are going to have to resolve it anyway, resolve it sooner rather than later.

That's where the democracy is being put right on - at the forefront by the Special Counsel.

[15:05:05]

And I want to remind everyone that Jack Smith is there representing the U.S. government and Justice Department. So he's saying the United States government has a stake here in the public interest not just for the 24 - in fact, he's not invoking the 2024 Election. What he's invoking more is that a former president would be held accountable for criminal activity from the 2020 Election, that's what he's putting on the table saying that needs to be resolved whether he should even to trial.

SANCHEZ: Michael, let's get your perspective on this. What did you make of this filing by the Special Counsel specifically him invoking the cases that Joan just mentioned?

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well I'm glad to be with all of you and happy holidays to you.

I think this really flies in the face of the argument that the government in various cases has tried to make and that is that somehow no one is above the law and no one is treated differently by the law. There's no question that this is treating the trial case dissimilarly than you have in other matters.

I mean, if you're a criminal defendant in a case, good luck. Getting your case expedited and appeal, heard and all that and to suggest I think that the Special Counsel is doing this somehow this is not about the election, it's about the past election.

I mean, you can read through that without a pair of glasses and that is - this is clearly about trying to get the case resolved before the election that everybody has been pushing that. I mean, we've heard about the public's right to know. And I think the Supreme Court is going to take note of that.

So whether - and I'm no Trump apologist, let me be clear about this, but it does seem to give him some ammunition on the stump as he talks about the fact that the judicial system and the Justice Department has been weaponized to keep him and his campaign away from his voters and that - that's - this kind of motion by - seems to tell that story.

I don't think the Supreme Court - if there's any question that they're going to get involved in this case, and ultimately they're going to have to decide. But to take things out of order, we already see a case being rushed through trial, but now to take an appeal out of order before there's been something moved forward and before the appellate court has heard it, I think is contrary to the assertion that's been made over and over again about how everybody has to be treated the same.

There's no way you can look and say that these folks have been treated the same. You've got people that have been on death row. It takes them decades to get a hearing, especially people who then are found innocent, they still sit in jail until the court hears it.

Now, this is an argument that somehow we need to expedite this particular case right before the election so people have a right to know.

KEILAR: What is sort of different, though, if you're president, let's say if Trump does succeed in being elected, is that there's no other job you can have where all legal proceedings against you potentially stop because you have that job, right? I mean, maybe you get out of jury duty, but I don't think you get - you don't get out of much else there, Michael.

MOORE: Right.

KEILAR: So how do they - how does the court weigh that considering that there does kind of appear to be this timeline that changes, the - which is the election, the effect of the election changing what happens in Trump's legal matters, whether he wins or not?

MOORE: Yes. We're less than a couple of weeks away from the fourth year of a presidential term. And so the department's been investigating this case or had the chance to investigate it since January the 6th of the first year of a presidential term.

And so for about the last three years they've been working on the case, had this been something that they felt like they needed to move forward with quickly, they could have done that in a way that would have not put this at this particular time.

And frankly, the Constitutional rights, the procedural due process rights are applicable to a criminal defendant, whether he's a former president or not and that's what makes this tough. And I think that's what will make the argument going forward.

But again, I'm not at all suggesting that the public would not want to know. I'm just simply saying that as we sit here today to try to rush something through that the average American would not have access to and that is an appeals court to hear a case even before a trial happened, I think is - it just tells a different story that all people are treated the same.

The - he will not be tried during his presidential term if he's elected. I mean, that's just - we know that.

SCHNEIDER: And I will --

MOORE: But that is, in fact, who we are.

SCHNEIDER: And I think Joan can talk to this as well. I mean, the Supreme Court, it is sort of extraordinary if they were to leapfrog the appeals process. But at the same time, they have done that more than a dozen times in recent years, including most recently with the student loan forgiveness program.

BISKUPIC: Yes, they have. And what the Special Counsel is saying that this is something different. The former president committed crimes, at least, that's what's being alleged here, and those need to be resolved.

[15:10:03]

So, yes, they're asking for treatment that the average defendant wouldn't have, but that's because of who he is. It's because this is a former president who is claiming immunity from trial, saying that he should be completely shielded because the actions he took in 2020 were part of official actions, part of official work and that's something that's - to be resolved.

So even - that's right, that no other defendant would even be in court being able to make that claim. But we've got a different kind of defendant here in a different kind of case, and the Special Counsel is trying to make that work for him and say why he should go ahead.

SCHNEIDER: And we have similar precedent ...

MOORE: Right.

SCHNEIDER: ... with U.S. v. Nixon, where they really expedited things as well.

BISKUPIC: They went ahead on that one as well.

SANCHEZ: Really compelling arguments.

MOORE: Nixon wasn't charged (inaudible) well, I'm sorry. But Nixon wasn't charged in courts all over the country that are now funneling their way through to the appeals court. That was a different situation. I mean, I get that the Special Counsel is making the good argument.

I think Joan is right. He's used it to his advantage and I don't blame him. I mean, that's good lawyering. But it just belies the story we've heard about and the claims we've heard about how Trump should be treated no differently because he was a former president than any other defendant. Well, now we see that that in fact is not (inaudible) ...

SANCHEZ: It'll be interesting to see ultimately how the court decides to proceed.

Michael, I do want to pivot because we have some new sound from the district attorney in Fulton County, Fani Willis. She's obviously overseeing the Georgia election subversion case against Trump.

Nick Valencia spoke with her a short time ago. Let's listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I know that in the media and even in the world, we like instant gratification. The judicial process is a long process and so we'll be here with that case for a while.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When I get asked that I'm covering this story, many people say, the former president's already gone to jail. Will he see prison time? What do you think about that?

WILLIS: I think that everyone in society is the same and I don't know why that's such a difficult concept for people. You can look at the charges and based on those charges we'll be recommending appropriate sentences. No one gets a special break because of their status.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: To the point that Michael was making.

MOORE: Right. I think that's the point I've been making all along and that is just the argument being made sort of on the ground that somehow he's not entitled to different treatment until it somehow benefits the Justice Department. So that's really where we are at this place. Whether or not he goes to jail, think that's so far down the road.

And I will remind you that while she talks about the trial and the judicial process taking a long time and the wheels don't move quickly, remember that her office asked to try this case against all 19 co- defendants within about 60 days because a couple of them filed a speedy trial request under state law.

So it does take a long time and I think she now recognizes that the likelihood of the Trump case, at least that piece of it, there might be some other sub cases, some pieces of that big RICO case that go separately. But the likelihood of trying the Trump case, I think, is not something we're going to see in 2024 in Georgia.

SANCHEZ: I'm curious to see if Trump's attorneys perhaps echo some of the arguments that Michael just made, really a fascinating conversation.

Michael Moore, Joan Biskupic, Jessica Schneider, thank you all so much.

KEILAR: Let's get the latest on how the Trump camp is responding to all of these legal developments.

Joining us now is CNN's Alayna Treene.

Alayna, what are we hearing from the former president on this filing from the Special Counsel?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Yes, well, we did just see this afternoon, Boris and Brianna. The Trump campaign sent out a new fundraising appeal on the response to the Special Counsel and in it included a videotaped reaction from Donald Trump himself criticizing the Special Counsel and how they're handling all of this.

In the fundraising video, he said, "Crooked Joe Biden's deranged prosecutor is turning to the Supreme Court to try and rush my fake trial ahead of the 2024 elections." Trump said, continue to say it's called election interference.

And look, I mean, this is exactly what we have heard from the former president and his team repeatedly when it relates to both this case, but also all of the other legal battles that he is facing. They're attacking this as political.

And of course, the goal here for Trump's team is they want to delay this trial as much as possible. They're pushing back on how swiftly the Special Counsel wants to take this up, arguing that they want to rush this before the general election. Something that, of course, his team is very much against, Boris and Brianna.

KEILAR: All right. Alayna Treene, thank you for that report.

And it is a stark image in a major European capital. It's really amazing to see this picture. College students clinging to the ledge of a building as they are hiding during a deadly mass shooting, we'll have new details ahead.

And a new warning from U.S. intel, Hamas' influence since that horrific attack on Israel on October 7th is growing globally. We have a new report ahead.

[15:15:02]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:19:16]

SANCHEZ: Looking overseas now, there was a deadly mass shooting in the Czech Republic. Police say a gunman opened fire at a university in downtown Prague, killing at least 14 people, injuring several others.

KEILAR: The country's prime minister says he feels deep sorrow and disgust over the attack. One student posting this photo on X, formerly Twitter, of course, showing how he used furniture to barricade his classroom door after learning of a campus shooter. We also saw this photo posted on social media. Amazing here, it shows people clinging to a ledge as they're hiding outside of this building several floors up during the shooting rampage.

CNN's Melissa Bell joining us now with the details, which are starting to come together about how this all unfolded and what officials knew ahead of time here. Melissa?

[15:20:06]

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We're trying - starting to get a clearer picture of exactly what went on. The fact that this young man, a 24-year-old philosophy student at the university where he carried out his rampage, had police believe initially killed his father before heading off to the campus. They had been tipped off, Brianna and Boris.

They understood that this was a young man who was armed and wanting to take his own life and had therefore sealed off and evacuated the campus building in which he was due to have this philosophy lecture at 2 PM. It is, in fact, in another part of the university that he struck with such devastating consequences just a few days before Christmas. And that's what we've been hearing from the Czech leader in an address to the nation deeply shocked by what's gone on.

These are entire families who are going to be preparing Christmas now without their loved ones. And of course, what we're talking about is a big - busy campus in the afternoon, many of these young victims will have been students. That death toll tragically rising now, as you said, Brianna, a moment ago to 14, many more critically wounded with a fear that this could rise still further.

And this is, of course, shocking whenever - and whenever these kind of mass shootings happened. But here on the European continent, where they are very rare compared to what happens in the United States, all the more shocking. These are simply things that don't happen terribly often and this is an entire city, country, continent reeling at the idea of the tragic loss of life. Brianna and Boris?

SANCHEZ: Melissa Bell, thank you so much for that update.

So in what may be the strongest signal yet that Israel could soon move to a new phase in its military operation in Gaza, the White House is now saying that Israel has assured the United States that it's planning to transition to a "lower-intensity" operation. But the Israelis will not offer a timeline. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: The Israelis say they, too, recognize the need to transition to a different phase of fighting. I mean, in any military campaign, Trevor, you're going to transition to a different set of objectives. And you're going to achieve those different set of objectives through different tactics and operations. And that's just standard for the conduct of military operations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: In the meantime, U.S. intel agencies are warning about Hamas' rise in popularity since the October 7th terrorist attack. New analysis showing Hamas' credibility and influence have grown dramatically across some parts of the Arab and Muslim world.

Joining us now to discuss is David Sanger, White House and National Security Correspondent for The New York Times.

And David, I think we should really be paying particular attention to what John Kirby there said compared to what we are hearing from some Israeli officials. I want to see what you think of this. This is something that a member of the Israeli parliament, who's a former Israeli ambassador to the U.N., Danny Danon, said when I spoke with him last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANNY DANON, FORMER ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: In the U.S., we appreciate your support, but in order to defeat evil, you cannot act with a stop clock and say, okay, we support you, but you have to conclude in a week or two weeks. It will take time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Is Israel - are Israel and the U.S. really on the same page here?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, they certainly haven't been for the past two months, Brianna. And I think, despite the White House's effort to say we're a hundred percent behind Israel and support them after the awful terror attack, the tension has grown and grown and grown.

And it's grown because there are now, by some accounts, upwards of 20,000 Palestinians killed in the Israeli retaliation. And a lot of those have been killed with American-made weapons. So the tension is over the United States trying to get the Israelis to move to a much more targeted phase here and reduce the civilian casualties.

The Israelis taking the position that they're not ready to go do that yet. And that's been the constant subtext of these visits by Secretary Austin, who, of course, said that Israel risks having a tactical victory and a strategic defeat here by Secretary of State Blinken, by the parade of other American officials who have been through trying to get the Israelis to think differently about how to conduct this next stage of the campaign.

SANCHEZ: David, I also want to get your thoughts on the sort of potential trap that Israel finds itself in as we're getting this new reporting about Hamas becoming more credible and more liked across the Arab world. It's becoming clear that what Israel is doing in Gaza is not very popular, not just in the region, but across the world and they're at risk of creating new generations of Hamas supporters as this war goes on.

[15:25:02]

SANGER: It's exactly right, Boris. What's it remind you of, Donald Rumsfeld warning?

SANCHEZ: Right, yes, Afghanistan and Iraq.

SANGER: Donald Rumsfeld's warning in Iraq, absolutely, where if you bomb enough of a civilian population, then the civilians are sort of the center of gravity here as Secretary Austin said. You get to a position where you radicalize people because you've killed their family members and so forth and you create another generation.

Prior to the attacks on October 7th and that whole horror people inside Gaza were a very mixed view about Hamas. And they viewed the Palestinian Authority, which had been run out of the west - out of Gaza and toward the West Bank as too weak. But Hamas didn't have much popularity because they were very poor at running the systems that made Gaza run.

Now, of course, they've become martyrs in all of this. And Israel has, I think, by going ahead with these kinds of bombings, run the risk of making the same mistake we made 20 years ago. And it's exactly what President Biden warned the Israelis about during his brief visit.

Remember that moment in his speech when he said after 9/11, we went after al-Qaeda, but we made some big mistakes. That's what he was referring to.

SANCHEZ: David Sanger, we have to leave the conversation there. Always appreciate your insight.

SANGER: Great to be with you.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Still to come, a federal judge blocking a California gun law that would have banned carrying concealed firearms in a lot of public places. The state's attorney general and governor already pushing back.

Plus, it's a pilot program just without the pilot. One of the world's most widely used cargo planes completed an entire flight with no one aboard. How it was done and what it means for the growing pilot shortage problem.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)