Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

New Audio Evidence of Trump Election Interference Efforts?; U.N. Adopts Resolution on Gaza. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 22, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:20]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: New evidence of how Donald Trump may have tried to overturn the results of the 2020 election, this time in Michigan, and it was caught on tape. We're going to talk about what was said. We're going to talk about what it could mean for the former president and the current cases against him.

And Wayfair employees have a lot to think about over the holidays after a leaked message shows how their CEO wants them to consider working longer hours and -- quote -- "blending work and life in the new year."

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: Kind of a bah humbug vibe there.

KEILAR: It is.

ACOSTA: Sounds like that.

And travelers can expect to spend longer hours at the airport today as they head out for the holidays, while a new report shows many of their fellow fliers aren't on their best behavior.

We are following these developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Welcome to CNN NEWS CENTRAL. I'm Brianna Keilar. Boris Sanchez is off, here today with Jim Acosta for the holidays.

ACOSTA: What a treat. Very nice.

KEILAR: Thank you for being here.

ACOSTA: Happy holidays. Good to see you.

KEILAR: And we are watching this Donald Trump tape, another one really, right, that could have major legal ramifications. It has surfaced.

And this one is a recording of a call that he made to election workers in Michigan, pressuring them to block Joe Biden's victory two weeks after Election Day in 2020. There was a meeting to certify Michigan's results. You're seeing some footage here of that meeting, two Wayne County election officials initially voting against certifying. Then they flipped and voted to certify. That's when Trump stepped in.

ACOSTA: Yes.

And according to some great reporting in "The Detroit News," hours later, these two Republican election workers got a call from then- President Trump. He urged them to not sign the certification and promised he'd -- quote -- "take care of" -- end quote -- getting them lawyers.

"The Detroit News" reports that after the conversation, the canvassers refused to sign. That's what Trump wanted. But in the end, their signatures weren't even needed. So Michigan's certification proceeded.

KEILAR: We have CNN's Jessica Schneider and Alayna Treene here with more on this.

We should mention, Jessica, CNN has not independently heard these recordings. "Detroit News" has listened to them. What else are we learning about this phone call?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So, about the phone call itself, you're right. "The Detroit News" reporters heard the phone call, but they're not releasing the audio because the whistle- blowers who gave this to them don't want it released just yet.

That's why we're seeing just quotes, instead of the actual audio. We had known that Trump had made this phone call, but what this is revealing is the actual details and words of that phone call. And we're seeing this pressure that Trump and also Ronna McDaniel put on these canvassers to not sign the certification.

This was after sort of their flip-flop of their votes. They said that they had voted nay to the certification. Then they got some flak from the fellow canvassers. They said they felt pressured, so they changed their vote to yes, and that's when that phone call happened.

What Trump apparently said on this phone call, one of the things he said, it's -- they heard four minutes' worth -- one of the things he said, he said: "Everyone knows Detroit is crooked as hell."

And what Donald Trump was referring to was his constant claims that the vote count, false claims, I might add, that the vote count in Detroit was somehow rigged or fraudulent. That was never proven, but he continued to talk about that repeatedly, and that's what he's referring to there.

The emergence of this audio, it is important. It happened several years ago now, but we are in the midst of the special counsel case, trial here in D.C., and the -- trying to change the vote in Michigan is one of the factors, one of the crucial elements of Jack Smith's case.

So it could play a role in this election subversion case we're seeing.

ACOSTA: Yes, and reminiscent of that Georgia phone call, that infamous phone call with the secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger.

And, Alayna, whenever a call like this comes out, Trump talks about how it's always a perfect phone call. What's the Trump campaign saying this time?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, well, they're pushing back pretty hard on this, although -- so, the Trump campaign released a statement. We obtained it last night.

But it did not directly address the phone call itself. I will read you some of that now from the Trump campaign spokesman.

It says -- quote -- "All of President Trump's actions were taken in furtherance of his duty as president of the United States to faithfully take care of the laws and ensure election integrity, including investigating the rigged and stolen 2020 presidential election."

So they're still doubling down on saying that the election was stolen.

But I think what's really interesting here and why this phone call could be so critical is, as Jessica mentioned, this could potentially be a key part of the case that Jack Smith is still building as they head to trial in March or -- if it stays in March. It could slide.

But, also, I think it speaks to a pattern of Donald Trump making these phone calls to state and local officials across the country, pressuring them to interfere and block the certification of these votes. You mentioned the phone call with Brad Raffensperger where he asked to find the votes. This is just another part of one of those calls.

[13:05:19]

KEILAR: It's always interesting to see who is on a particular call with him. And, in this case, you have Ronna McDaniel, the chair of the RNC, her state, by the way, Michigan. She's a Michigander.

But, still, that's significant. What is she saying?

SCHNEIDER: Yes.

And she -- according to what "The Detroit News" is reporting, she was an integral part of this phone call, trying to convince those canvassers not to sign the certification. I will note, ultimately, they decided -- those canvassers didn't sign the certification. Ultimately, they decided they didn't need their signatures.

So, really, it seems that Ronna McDaniel and Donald Trump were successful in convincing them not to sign the certification. She said, look, if you can help it, if you cannot go back in there, not sign it, we will help you get attorneys. Donald Trump agreed with that on the phone call.

Ronna McDaniel has issued a statement about this. She's saying this: "What I said publicly and repeated at the time, as referenced in my letter on November 21, 2020, is that there was ample evidence that warranted an audit."

So she's continuing to press that she believed that the election results should have been looked into, using that as her defense for what we're hearing from her on the phone call here.

ACOSTA: All right, very interesting. But it does seem like part of a pattern, what we saw, pressure from the president and his team at that time.

All right, guys, Jessica, Alayna, thank you very much.

Let's bring in former U.S. attorney Harry Litman.

Harry, all of this sounds eerily reminiscent. What do you think about this new recording and how significant that could be for prosecutors, folks like the special counsel, Jack Smith? What do you think?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Yes, I think that's exactly right.

It really is of a piece, as you said, Jim, with the infamous phone call to Raffensperger. One key difference, these two canvassers -- one has since died -- played ball. They came back the next day, tried to rescind their votes, never did sign, and then said publicly this call from the president of the United States, they didn't quite remember what was said. They think he was just congratulating them on their good work.

So it really is, here, one where he was successful, but it didn't keep them from certifying the election. It is -- it feeds totally into Jack Smith's case, which already concerns Michigan. This call is not in there, but we have to expect they have it. In addition, it's a state crime, almost certainly, because Michigan law prohibits bribery, getting a public official to try not to do their duty by offering something of value.

Here, that would be a lawyer, because they knew, everyone knew it would be needed. So this is hot water all around.

KEILAR: Yes, that's really -- that's really interesting.

ACOSTA: Wow. Yes.

KEILAR: And you do hear some of the same defenses, right? We have heard this from the Trump team. This is just part of his presidential duties, calling up local election workers, trying to sway them.

Fact-check that for us.

LITMAN: Yes, so two things.

First, he's getting at immunity here. This is the claim he's trying to make now in the Supreme Court, saying, even if I did it, because it was my -- in my official duties, you cannot convict me or indict me.

That's not going to fly, because he's not acting as president here. He's acting as a candidate. Ronna McDaniel is trying to say, oh, we were just looking into things. But that doesn't fly either, because she is exhorting them not to do their job. They weren't looking into things. They were actually trying to stonewall the legal process.

But it's important to note that this is Trump trying to claim immunity for this act, as he's doing generally now in the D.C. case.

ACOSTA: And, Harry, one of these election officials talked to reporters about this call at the time. Let's revisit that and talk about it on the other side.

LITMAN: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONICA PALMER, CHAIR, WAYNE COUNTY, MICHIGAN, BOARD OF CANVASSERS: I received a call from the president. It was after the meeting. And he thanked me for my service, asked me how I was doing.

There was a genuine concern for my safety with what he had heard, the threats that were -- that were coming in.

QUESTION: Are you saying the president's call had no influence on you recanting your vote?

PALMER: Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now, she says the Trump call had no influence on her, but, either way, the pair refused to sign after the call. And that's what Trump wanted to happen.

And, as you mentioned, Harry, there was an offer of paying for legal services, too, which I completely forgot about. That could definitely put you in hot water there. And it just goes to show you, even all these years later, there's just stuff we haven't learned about what took place around this election. It's just incredible.

LITMAN: Isn't that remarkable?

ACOSTA: Yes.

LITMAN: Just quickly, that's obviously a lie.

[13:10:00]

And, in the same conversation, she later says there was nothing said about the election. As I said, she played ball, as did her colleague, who has since died. And they could have had real consequences, if it weren't enough for just the Democratic members of the board to go forward.

KEILAR: Harry, how problematic is that for her? Because, for instance, Michigan is already prosecuting fake electors. And then you have -- and assuming we do get to maybe see this call for ourselves or certainly the special counsel or the Michigan A.G. gets to take a look at this, they will be able to tell that what she is representing there is different than what happened on the call.

LITMAN: Yes, I will say this. She surely needs the lawyer, whether or not Trump pays for it.

But you can imagine, if I'm a Michigan prosecutor and trying to charge Trump here, they are obvious candidates for -- as co-conspirators to defraud, to violate Michigan election laws. And that would be something that a prosecutor would look for them to cooperate against Trump in order to not face serious penalties themselves.

KEILAR: There's many interesting things to talk about with the revelation of this new call and tape.

Harry, thanks for being with us.

ACOSTA: Thanks, Harry.

LITMAN: Thank you.

KEILAR: Still ahead: The U.N. Security Council has just approved a resolution, some would say kind of watered down here, but it calls for long enough pauses in the fighting to get increased aid into Gaza. The U.S. abstained from that vote. We will have more on the diplomatic fallout.

Plus, border police say they're encountering a record number of migrants each day. We will have much more on what's being called an unprecedented surge ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:15:57]

ACOSTA: After several delays this week, the U.N. Security Council has passed a resolution calling for an extended pause in the fighting between Israel and Hamas and more aid to Gaza.

There were days of intense debate behind the scenes. The U.S. did not vote in favor, but did abstain, allowing it to pass.

Here's U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Linda Thomas-Greenfield after that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: It took many days and many, many long nights of negotiating to get this right. But, today, this council provided a glimmer of hope amongst a sea of unimaginable suffering.

Today, this council called for urgent steps to immediately allow safe, unhindered and expanded humanitarian access.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in Tel Aviv.

Jeremy, what's the latest? What can you tell us about what happened there?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, after days of negotiations, the United Nations Security Council finally passing this resolution.

If you listen to the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, you would think that the U.S. had actually supported this, but, actually, the United States ultimately ended up abstaining, but nonetheless allowing the resolution to pass. The -- Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the ambassador, said that the U.S. didn't ultimately vote for it because of the lack of condemnation of Hamas and its attack on October 7, saying that she will never understand why certain members of that council didn't support that.

But she did welcome the fact that this resolution will appoint a senior U.N. official to help coordinate and facilitate the entry of aid into Gaza. Israeli officials, for their part, aren't altogether condemning this resolution, but they are saying that they will continue this war against Hamas until all hostages are returned and until Hamas is eradicated from the Gaza Strip.

There is an effort to scale up the flow of aid into Gaza. Today, I was at the Kerem Shalom crossing from Israel into Gaza, where, for the first week, after a lot of U.S. pressure, Israel has been allowing the entry of U.N. trucks directly into Gaza from Israel after they undergo those security checks.

But there is still a very big disconnect, both in terms of the number of trucks that are getting in and the enormous need in Gaza for much, much more aid, and also in terms of Israeli officials recognizing the reality and the facts of what is happening in Gaza.

Today, I spoke with Colonel Moshe Tetro, who is the senior Israeli military officer in charge of coordinating the delivery of that aid in Gaza. And with a straight face, he looked at me and he said that there is no food shortage in Gaza.

That is not the case, according to accounts on the ground, according to the United Nations, the World Food Program, which said that at least half of Gazans are currently experiencing severe or extreme hunger. And so there is certainly a big disconnect on the ground in terms of what Israeli officials are seeing, and, again, the need still very, very large for Gazans who are continuing to suffer.

ACOSTA: Absolutely.

And, Jeremy, we're also learning that a 73-year-old Israeli-American dual national was killed while being held captive in Gaza by Hamas. What more can you tell us about him?

DIAMOND: Yes, 73-year-old Gadi Haggai, he was kidnapped alongside his wife from Kibbutz Nir Oz. They were actually out for a walk when Hamas terrorists attacked that kibbutz.

He was critically wounded. He was shot during that attack, critically wounded, believed to have been taken hostage to Gaza alongside his wife. And, today, the Hostage and Missing Persons families Forum saying that he is now dead. They did not say exactly when he died or how or how they have that information, but they have been a reliable source and in contact with a lot of the families of these hostages.

His wife, meanwhile, is still believed to be held hostage and his body is still believed to be in Gaza. Hamas, as we know, not only has held people hostage, but also holds the bodies of those who have been killed hostage. At least 20 of those hostages are believed to be dead and their bodies still being held by Hamas as bargaining chips -- Jim.

[13:20:07]

ACOSTA: All right, Jeremy Diamond, thank you very much -- Brianna over to you.

KEILAR: So, you hear Israel compare its airstrikes in Gaza to the U.S. coalition targeting of ISIS.

But, actually, this concentration of bombs that Israel has dropped per square mile in Gaza, at least the first month of this war, hasn't been seen since Vietnam. That is how one former U.S. defense intelligence analyst describes it.

And new analysis by CNN and A.I. company Synthetaic suggests that Israel dropped hundreds of massive bombs on Gaza. You look at satellite imagery here revealing more than 500 impact craters that exceed 40 feet in diameter. And that is important, because it's consistent with a 2,000-pound bomb.

Keep in mind, these are four times heavier than the largest bombs the U.S. dropped on ISIS in Mosul, Iraq, during that pivotal battle to remove that extremist group from that country. Weapons and warfare experts blame the extensive use of heavy munitions like these 2,000- pound bombs for the soaring death toll of Palestinians that we have seen in Gaza.

And this is very important. It is not just the point of impact of this crater here that's most concerning. It is actually this, the potential kill zone from a crater that can extend up to 1,200 feet, which is an area equivalent of more -- to more than 75 football fields, that area equivalent to more than 75 football fields.

And so you have the U.S. and other Western allies pressuring Israel over the scale of the disproportionate devastation in Gaza, President Biden even recently accusing Israel of indiscriminate bombing. Israeli officials argue that its heavy munitions are necessary to eliminating Hamas, whose fighters, of course, killed brutally more than 1,200 people and took more than 240 hostages in Israel on October 7.

Officials also claim that they're going to extraordinary lengths to minimize civilian casualties. And yet we see the death toll in Gaza. And that tells another story. The Hamas-controlled Ministry of Health says that about 20,000 people have been killed since October 7. And these are not perfect numbers, it is very true.

They count a hospital attack from a misfired Islamic Jihad rocket as Israeli, when it clearly was not. But they are widely accepted to grossly reflect the casualties. And most of the dead are women and children, according to these figures.

Just last week, the U.S. intelligence sources, some of them telling CNN that 40 to 45 percent of the 29,000 air-to-surface munitions that Israel dropped on Gaza were so-called dumb bombs. That means they're unguided bombs, and that means that they pose a significantly greater threat to civilians, especially in densely populated Gaza.

And because of the sheer number of bombs dropped, some of these 2,000- pound bombs are likely dumb bombs. Now, Israel has a large arsenal of the big dumb bombs, known as Mark 84s. And according to two people who are familiar with the matter, the U.S. has provided Israel with more than 5,400 of those Mark 84s since October 7.

The 2,000-pound bombs feature prominently in attacks on the perimeter of Gaza City, the epicenter of the Israeli military operation in October and much of November and one such strike you see here. This was the one on the Jabalia refugee camp. And then in another instance, you can see a large crater consistent with one of those bombs.

It was seen on a coastal highway that runs through a major Palestinian refugee camp known as Beach Camp. In a neighborhood just north of that camp, 14 craters indicating 2,000-pound bombs appear in just one square kilometer. And in one area near Beach Camp, seven schools were within the lethal fragmentation zone of at least five craters, seven schools.

Let's talk more now about this with CNN military analyst retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton, who's going to walk us through some of this.

And, actually, you were very helpful as well in helping us understand some of what we have seen in this. Israeli officials have consistently compared, as I was mentioning, the war that they are waging against Hamas with the war that U.S. and coalition forces and Iraqi forces waged against ISIS.

The statistics don't exactly line up here. And I know, look, at a certain point, we're arguing about degrees of awfulness.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Right.

KEILAR: But it's still important to talk about this. How does this compare to the urban warfare that was seen in Mosul and Raqqa?

LEIGHTON: Yes. So, Brianna, this is actually quite -- quite good to look at here, because when you look at, for example, this fragmentation blast zone area right here, you have got all of these different schools that are listed right here.

You have all these different things. So, if you're looking at this from the standpoint of what we did in Mosul, a lot of the bombs that we dropped there had much less of a blast radius than the ones that you see in Iraq -- in Gaza -- excuse me.

[13:25:04]

So, when you look at the way in which this works, you see that this fragmentation area right here covers a lot of territory. A lot of civilian populations are really focused here. Not only do they live here. They go to school here. They work here. They do all these kinds of things. So they're part of that target area.

When you look at what happened in Mosul, there are actually no areas where you can see this kind of a situation there, because what we did was, in the U.S. system, we used a lot of more of a precise targeting process. And the other thing that we did, Brianna, was what we ended up doing was, we used lower-powered bombs.

So when you look at an urban environment like this right here, which, in essence, is very similar to what you saw in Mosul, you had far fewer fragmentation areas because you had a blast radius that would be, for example, around this area right here, as opposed to this wider area.

KEILAR: The entire large circle there.

LEIGHTON: Yes, exactly.

KEILAR: OK.

So there's a defining feature in Gaza, which is the tunnels that Hamas is using. You didn't have that in Mosul. When you're talking about these Mark 84s, can they penetrate to those tunnels?

LEIGHTON: So, it depends.

So when you look at a Mark 84, let's take a look right here at this bomb right here. So it looks just like any other standard bomb, but a Mark 84 actually cannot penetrate beneath 100 feet. So, when you look at the kind of fusing that's involved with the Mark 84, when you look at the types of things that are part of that process in terms of targeting and in terms of putting this bomb together, most of the tunnels that you're dealing with in Gaza are between 100 and 160 feet deep, at least in some of their deeper areas.

So if it's a 160-foot-deep tunnel, this is not going to do anything for it. You have to hit the entrance shafts. You have to hit the areas where they get air, where they might have a power connection source, either entrance or exit areas. Those are the kinds of things that you would hit with something like this. But this is a very powerful bomb to go after something like that.

KEILAR: There are bunker-busters, just to be clear. We know, based on what we have heard from a "Wall Street Journal" reporter, that the U.S. has sent, but not many, about 100 of these 2,000-pound bombs called BLU-109s. What can you tell us about this?

LEIGHTON: So, BLU-109 is designed specifically to penetrate hardened targets and deeply buried targets. So when you look at the kinds of things that they're able to do, yes,

they have the same basic weight as a Mark 84 bomb, for example, does, but they are built to go after concrete targets, such as the Iranian nuclear facilities that have very much hardened concrete above those areas, the areas that they're trying to protect.

And so that's what these kinds of bombs are designed to do. The fact that the Israelis have them doesn't mean that they're using them in this case. And when they do use them, they're using them in a way that is not in concert with how the U.S. would use them at this point.

KEILAR: Yes. And they clearly do not have that many of them, compared to these other 2,000-pound bombs, the Mark 84s.

Colonel, thank you so much for taking us through this. It's incredibly helpful.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Brianna.

KEILAR: And coming up, new numbers out from border officials on the migrant surge. We're going to bring that to you ahead.

Plus, the CEO of online furniture company Wayfair sent a blunt end-of- your message to his employees. Don't you love those? Don't shy away from doing more work and blending your work with your life. How did that go over? Hmm.

We will talk about it ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)