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Any Hope For Hamas Hostages?; Appeals Court to Hear Trump Immunity Arguments; Migrant Surge. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired December 25, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:02:01]

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: Right now, thousands of migrants are making their way from Southern Mexico to the U.S. border in the largest migrant caravan that we have seen in over a year. The nation's top diplomat is heading this week to Mexico to try to address this unprecedented surge.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Ron DeSantis is hitting Donald Trump for not fulfilling his campaign promises of draining the swamp, but would the Florida governor be any different? New questions about his record, campaign donors and smokable medical marijuana. It's a CNN investigation.

SIDNER: It's a new fight for Public Enemy founder Chuck D. How he is turning his attention the health care crisis bankrupting millions of Americans. I sat down with hip-hop pioneer Chuck D to talk all about that.

I'm Sara Sidner with Kate Bolduan. John Berman is working elsewhere today.

BOLDUAN: Yes, hard.

SIDNER: And I'm upset about it.

BOLDUAN: No, he's working very hard.

SIDNER: He's working hard.

BOLDUAN: Yes, always is.

SIDNER: This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. Don't worry. He will be back.

BOLDUAN: On this Christmas morning, thousands of migrants are right now making their way toward the Southern U.S. border, expected to add to the unprecedented migrant surge that's already overwhelming U.S. agencies.

It is the largest caravan that the U.S. has seen in over a year. And this comes at a critical time. Not only is the U.S. Southern border already in crisis. Just two days from now, Secretary of State Tony Blinken is headed to Mexico to try to find some solutions here and also reach some agreements on how to slow that flow through Mexico.

Federal authorities have reported an average of nearly 10,000 migrant encounters a day along the U.S. Southern border this month.

CNN's Rafael Romo is in Texas joining us once again.

Rafael, you're talking to local law enforcement, and they're telling you they can't keep up with this pace. What else are they telling you?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they have enough problems as it is when it comes to tackling a local crime and protecting the community.

And they say, if you add the burden of taking care of thousands and thousands of immigrants, it's just an unsustainable situation. And, Kate, let me tell you, over the weekend, this holding area behind me was filled with immigrants who are brought here after they surrendered to immigration officials at points along the border or at ports of entry.

CBP managed to empty this area yesterday, but, as you can see, it is empty, but it was filled up just a few moments ago. They are processing them as fast as they can. And we have been traveling to different points along the border, and we have seen how immigrants keep crossing even when immigration officials and the state of Texas have installed obstacles, including a barbed wire on the banks of the Rio Grande and buoys in the river itself that serve as floating barriers.

We talked to a mother who traveled with her 3-year-old son and 16- year-old daughter by land from Honduras in Central America. All three of them surrendered to immigration authorities at the border on Christmas Eve and were hoping to spend this Christmas Day at a shelter.

[11:05:04]

We also talked to a woman from Cuba who says she, her sister and her sister's daughter were kidnapped as they traveled by land in Mexico. After their family paid ransom, they were then robbed before getting to the border.

In spite of all this, she says that she feels blessed this Christmas Day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILAIDIS DUARTE FELIPE, MIGRANT (through translator): That I'm going to spend it with my family, that I'm going to live in a free country, that at least, I don't know, I'm going to be happy because I'm going to live in a free country where the rights of citizens are respected.

That wasn't the case where I lived. I was under a lot of pressure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: And, Kate, Customs and Border Protection has just released new figures regarding apprehensions at the U.S. border, with Mexico officials say, during the month of November, more than 242,000 people were detained by Border Patrol, compared to 235,000 for the same month last year -- now back to you.

BOLDUAN: Those are huge numbers.

Rafael, thank you so much.

SIDNER: All right, the start of 2024 will soon bring Donald Trump another chance to get his election federal subversion charges dropped.

In just 15 days, the federal appears court is now scheduled to hear oral arguments for and against granting the former president immunity, this as his March 4 trial date is getting ever closer.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is joining us now with more.

This right now is in the hands of the appeals court, but it could, of course, ultimately end up at the Supreme Court, which Jack Smith actually tried to get it there before it got to this point. Give us some sense of what we're going to see with timing and how this might play out.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Sara, we are seeing this being argued on January 9 before the Court of Appeals in D.C., the federal Court of Appeals, the circuit.

They're going to make a decision not that day, but it could come in the days or weeks after that. So we could get some sort of weigh-in from the appeals court on whether there is immunity around the presidency, whether Donald Trump has to go to trial from them.

And then whoever loses that is very likely to take this question to the Supreme Court, because we never have had a president, a former president, being charged with a crime before. And this is a very big question that has to be resolved before Donald Trump goes to trial on these charges.

He lost, obviously, at the trial level, with a judge saying no court ever, no branch of government ever would give anyone who served in the presidency a total pass from prosecution in the future, as Trump is arguing that he has absolute protections and immunity for what he was doing while he was president.

He says -- Trump's team has been arguing in court in briefs, but Trump also has been on TRUTH Social highlighting what his position is, saying, over the weekend: "I wasn't campaigning. The election was over. I was doing my duty as president to expose and further investigate a rigged and stolen election."

And so that is one of the issues that the appeals court is likely to be looking at. Was Trump doing something that was part of his duties as president? There are other courts who have said, no, the campaigning, the electioneering, that isn't part of the presidency. And then, on top of that, they will have to address that question of whether somebody who was sitting as president could be charged with crimes for that time period -- Sara.

SIDNER: There is a lot of really important decisions that need to be made by the courts. We will be watching, and I know you will be on it. Thank you, Katelyn Polantz. Appreciate it. Have a great weekend.

BOLDUAN: Now, Donald Trump announced his White House bid, this White House bid, around 13 months ago. Nikki Haley was next, launching her bid in February of this year.

Today, we are seven days from the new year, 21 days out from the Iowa caucuses. So all of the Republican candidates are waking up this Christmas morning and should be facing what kind of reality with their campaigns?

Joining us now is CNN political commentator Republican strategist Alice Stewart, kindly going to play along with what I'm calling the good and bad lists of 2023, keeping with the Christmas theme.

So, Alice, for Donald Trump, what is the good reality that his campaign is facing right now?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first off, you're on the good list, I'm sure, Kate, so you're going to be in good shape.

BOLDUAN: Your lists are messed up then, Alice.

(LAUGHTER)

BOLDUAN: Just kidding.

STEWART: Look, it's exciting to think that, 21 days from now, Republicans in Iowa will be traveling over the river and through the woods to a caucus location near them, but it's coming. And this is an exciting time.

The good thing for Donald Trump is his steady lead. It's one thing for you to be ahead in one poll and things change, but he has a commanding, steady lead in these polls in all of these states, but -- over 50 percent in many of these polls.

And the fact that he's able to maintain that momentum is good. Look, his base is not going anywhere. They are committed to him. They are standing firm despite all of the other issues that we just outlined, all of the legal issues facing him. His base is committed.

[11:10:01]

The reality is, there are many Republicans that are looking to turn the page and get away from Donald Trump and the past grievances that he is really campaigning on and ready to turn the page for a new fresh face. So that's one thing that he does have to keep in mind. But that steady lead has not changed since -- really since he got in the race.

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right.

And then, for Nikki Haley, the good must be, for her, the surge in New Hampshire. What else?

STEWART: The fact that she has continued to tighten up the polls the. Non-Trump candidates have been back and forth. She is now doing well in New Hampshire, as well as in Iowa.

And here's the good thing for her, is that she understands that, in order to not just win in this primary, to win in the general election, you need a more nuanced message. And Haley has managed to -- certain issues that are die-hard issues for Republicans, like the life issue and abortion issue, she recognizes that, in order to broaden the electorate, not just in the primary, but into the general election, she's changed the messaging.

So we're not talking about abortion bans. We're talking about abortion limits and what is an appropriate time to have a conversation about when abortions should be desirable or preferred for women who are in that situation. That's a better message heading into the general election.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

STEWART: And she understands we need to stop demonizing people on this topic and talk about limits, as opposed to bans.

BOLDUAN: There's a lot that I would say Nikki Haley is waking up to on Christmas morning thinking is the good. What's the bad reality that she needs to be facing?

STEWART: A fractured field, Kate. With so many candidates out there, there's -- the pie only goes so far. With Donald Trump at a steady 50, with so many candidates in the race, that divides up the number of votes that she could actually get.

And I think, as we winnow the field, that potentially could be in her favor. Look, here's the thing out of Iowa. You want to have a good, strong finish out of Iowa, second or even third with Donald Trump. But Iowa isn't necessarily about picking the winner. It's about winnowing the field.

So, as we get through Iowa in 21 days, some of the candidates are going to have to face the really difficult reality that maybe it's time to throw their support behind someone else.

(CROSSTALK)

STEWART: So, the sooner we can consolidate behind one person...

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: So, it's like you're talking about Ron DeSantis without talking about Ron DeSantis here.

Is it harder to find a good reality for Ron DeSantis than a bad one for his campaign at this point?

(CROSSTALK)

STEWART: This isn't really where you want to be at this point, when he's had a strong second place in the polls for some time. He should be making his closing arguments right now. And he is doing that in Iowa at these town halls and these events.

He's making the case for why he is an electable candidate. He is a proven winner. He is a younger generation and optimistic vision. The problem is, in the media, he's getting so much coverage on the palace intrigue, with staff departures and firings and so much of that, and finger-pointing by former staffers.

That's not desirable when you're trying to really capitalize on the earned media you're getting outside of the real work he's doing on the ground. Look, he's put in the work. He's been to all 99 counties. And he's really working to meet these people.

But when this palace intrigue really not just makes national news -- you have local papers covering this -- it does raise some concerns. But he does have a strong caucus operation in the works. And the goal is really reinforcing that over the next three weeks and making sure the people that have said they're going to come out do come out on that night.

BOLDUAN: Yes. It's great to see you, Alice. Thank you so much. Merry Christmas.

STEWART: You too, Kate. Merry Christmas.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

SIDNER: Still ahead: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is on the ground in Gaza, his visit right as Israel increases strikes against Hamas from the sky, ground and sea.

Also, a CNN investigation is raising questions about Florida Governor Ron DeSantis' record on special interest and campaign donors.

Plus, the magic may be just beginning for one person this holiday, a drawing tonight for the highest Christmas jackpot ever.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:18:42]

BOLDUAN: We have new video just in we want to show you, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Northern Gaza visiting troops, the video posted by the prime minister's office just this morning.

Now, his visit comes as he's also declared that Israel is intensifying its war effort against Hamas, and Sunday was one of the deadliest nights in Gaza since the war began. The Hamas-run Health Ministry claiming at least 70 people were killed at a refugee camp in Central Gaza. Video from the scene there shows a wide expanse of damage. The IDF says they are reviewing the claim that it was the result of an Israeli attack.

The IDF also reports that their troops engaged in fierce battles over the weekend in both Northern and Southern Gaza and 15 IDF soldiers were killed in the fighting over the weekend, bringing the military death toll for the IDF to 154 since operations against Hamas began. The wife of Israel's prime minister is now making a new plea for help to rescue the hostages still held by Hamas. She sent a letter to the pope and also the wives of 33 world leaders asking them for their assistance to try to bring those hostages home. Israel believes there are still 129 hostages being held by Hamas in Gaza.

And joining us now is a former director of the hostage recovery for the U.S. government, Chris O'Leary.

[11:20:02]

Chris, thank you so much for coming in on this Christmas Day.

We're now looking at 80 days of these hostages being held captive in Gaza. Thursday, Hamas made -- said very clearly that no talks over prisoner swaps would continue or pick back up until Israel ends its military operation in Gaza.

What do you do with that? I mean, what does that say about the chances of getting more hostages out alive at this point?

CHRISTOPHER O'LEARY, FORMER U.S. GOVERNMENT DIRECTOR OF HOSTAGE RECOVERY: I think it's grim right now, Kate.

If the sole strategy right now is trying to have some kind of negotiated release for another batch, and Hamas is not interested, they hold all the cards. They have all the leverage. It's really just a grim picture for getting things moving forward and back on track, despite the best efforts of CIA Director Burns and the head of the Mossad and the Qataris.

If you don't have Hamas willing to take a pause and reengage, then I think we're in a bad place.

BOLDUAN: And there's a question of the impact of the military operations, obviously, on any hope of getting more hostages out, because while the prime minister says that they're intensifying ground operations, we do know that, in the coming weeks, Israel is expected to be transitioning from a high-intensity phase of military operations to a lower-intensity, kind of intel-driven phase of this war.

What -- from your experience, what will that shift mean for the hostages?

O'LEARY: Well, first of all, it's long overdue. That's what they should have been doing from the very beginning.

Intelligence-driven raids with special operations forces conducted at night after specific individuals from Hamas' leadership, you capture that individual. By the way, you limit civilian casualties, because most civilians aren't moving about at 2:00 in the morning, when these operations are conducted.

You take detainees. You interview and interrogate them. You gather what we call sensitive site exploitation material off of the target and then you bring that back and you exploit it, whether it's documents, electronics. And all of that gets exploited and it gets fed into your intelligence picture, and you start driving towards other targets every night, and then it starts telling you where the hostages are. That's what should have been done from the beginning.

A second point is, yes, Israel is like to transition -- likely to transition, but it's probably not because that they're prioritizing hostages, because they won't be able to sustain this ground campaign. This is a reserve force.

I mean, they have -- yes, they have active-duty troops, but they are augmented by a sizable contingent of reservists. And these are shop owners, doctors, teachers. And, frankly, they just can't stay activated for this long. Israel's economy is plummeting, especially their agricultural industry.

So, Israel has to pivot at some point back to something else, which brings into the question, well, what if the axis of resistance led by Iran, with Hezbollah, Kataib Hezbollah, the Houthis, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, if they all of a sudden flip the switch and really turn on some violence?

BOLDUAN: As we're heading in to a new year and another week of these hostages being held in Gaza, you -- I was thinking back to some of the conversations you and I have had.

And you have long said, obviously, that the hostages are the greatest leverage that Hamas has, which is why, of course, you said they're not going to give them up willingly. But now that you have the IDF finding and recovering an increasing number of dead hostages from Gaza, how does that change things?

O'LEARY: Well, it's, number one, not surprising, because Hamas didn't hold all of the hostages.

So Palestinian Islamic Jihad held some. So did some disparate groups and criminal organizations. None of those hostages were expected to be held in the tunnels below ground. Hamas was not going to give up that real estate for these other Palestinian groups.

So all of those hostages were always exposed, which is why Israel's tactics of widespread nondiscretionary bombing and unbridled urban warfare was concerning and, frankly, perplexing to those of us who work counterterrorism and hostage recovery.

So that's problem number one. Additionally, there are upsides of Israel pushing in. They have exposed some of the tunnels and some of the possible hiding places where Hamas was holding these people, where we had the -- unfortunately, the three Israeli victims that escaped the other day and then, unfortunately, were killed by frontline troops.

So that's the issue that, as we move forward, Israel could come upon more of these, but it's likely that they're going to be -- unless this is done in a precise, intelligence-driven way, we're not going to have many success stories moving forward.

[11:25:05]

BOLDUAN: Chris O'Leary.

Thank you for coming in, Chris.

O'LEARY: Merry Christmas, Kate.

SIDNER: All right, still ahead: The U.S. economy is ending the year with multiple strong data check-ins, so why is President Joe Biden's economic message failing to land with potential voters?

We will discuss coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SIDNER: The White House says the U.S. has hit a significant milestone in the battle to finally bring down inflation.

A pair of reports last week showed the GDP grew 4.9 percent in the third quarter, the strongest in nearly two years. And, in November, inflation cooled to 2.6 percent, meaning prices fell