Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Russia Launches Biggest Air Attack on Ukraine; Trump Removed from Maine Ballot; New Audio of Fake Elector Plot; Tim Heaphy is Interviewed about the Fake Elector Plot; Haley Hosts Town Hall Amid Civil War Comments; Haley Defends Civil War Comments. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 29, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:47]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The largest Russian air attack on Ukraine since the war started nearly two years ago, and it is still underway. Dozens of people are dead and injured. We have breaking developments just coming in.

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Plus, disqualified from one sting on another. Maine joining Colorado in booting Donald Trump from the ballot as blue California says he'll be on theirs. The unprecedented ballot battles that keep coming for the former president.

BERMAN: And a huge rogue wave sweeps over more than a dozen people in southern California. Look at that. Floods, road closures and worse, and more could still be on the way.

Sara and Kate are both elsewhere today. I'm John Berman, alongside Danny Freeman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

FREEMAN: This morning, the Ukraine air force said another missile attack by Russia was underway just hours after wave after wave of air strikes on Ukraine overnight. At least 18 people were killed, dozens more injured, in Russia's biggest air attack since the war began. Ukrainian officials say Russia fired over 150 missiles and drones on all regions from all directions, hitting Lviv in the west, Kyiv in the capital, Kharkiv in the north and Zaporizhzhia and Odessa in the south.

Now, Ukraine says they were able to shoot down most of the missiles and drones, but CNN's Helena Lins is in Kyiv this morning.

And, Helena, you've, as I understand this, witnessed some of these attacks there. So, tell us, what are you seeing?

HELENA LINS, CNN PORTUGAL INTERNATIONAL REPORTER: Hello, Danny.

Yes, in the morning we were in an area where a business building was hit. It was not being used, so partly destroyed, but no people inside. Also from the other side of the street there was a metro station that was also hit. It was -- the main entrance was closed. People could still access it from another side. And the metro was already working. Right now we are not very far from that area, but actually in a place

where there is some warehouses. And these warehouses behind me was actually hit during this attack.

Let me just take you inside and show you what actually -- the destruction that is inside because, you know, the warehouse was hit, it caught fire. When we arrived here, the smoke was still very visible from the outside. Right now we can still see smoke in the inside. The smell is actually also strong. And for some time we couldn't access the inside of the warehouse because firefighters were still trying to stabilize so nothing could actually fall. We now have permission to enter.

And as you can see, you know, there is -- the structure is completely destroyed. The roof of the warehouse is totally destroyed. And we are actually walking most of the time on shattered glasses, on fragments of the warehouse, but also of the equipment that was inside.

I was speaking with the general manager of the company, which is actually a German company working in Ukraine, and he was telling me there is only electro technical equipment here. There's no weapons. And it's now mostly destroyed. So, the warehouse is destroyed. They will have to look for a new one. What is inside, they're trying to understand whether or not they can still recover something.

And now estimating also the costs of the destruction. The company is still going to continue working in Ukraine. That's at least what he was telling me. But, you know, it's very difficult right now to recover from all this loss.

There was no one inside the warehouse when the attack happened. It was in the early hours in the morning. But speaking with the firefighters, at least -- I mean two people asked for -- to be assisted by the emergency services because this was the main warehouse that was hit, but there's also other buildings around. So, two people needed to be assisted by the emergency services.

[09:05:03]

As I was telling you, firefighters are still here. Work is still being done in this warehouse. There's still a lot of smoke and the smell is really strong. But as you were saying, not only Kyiv was hit, which was very unexpected, you know, sirens have been going off in the capital for almost every day, but it was not -- no one was expecting this size of destruction but also other cities in Ukraine. And this shows the scale of the attack of last night and this morning.

FREEMAN: Helena, just the scale of that destruction, pretty incomprehensible. Please stay safe and thank you for bringing us that report. Appreciate it.

BERMAN: Yes, what images there. The still smoldering wreckage of the air strikes that are still going on in parts of that country.

In the meantime, major new developments this morning in the courts and on the campaign trail. Overnight, Maine became the second state to remove Donald Trump from a primary ballot because of the 14th amendment's ban on insurrectionists. The secretary of state, Shenna Bellows, who made the call, spoke with me just moments after the decision. And she told me ultimately she would defer to the U.S. Supreme Court if the cases get there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHENNA BELLOWS, MAINE SECRETARY OF STATE: The United States Supreme Court is the ultimate interpreter ideally. They will rule. And they haven't yet. But certainly, should they rule, we will abide by their ruling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So Maine was not the only state to act overnight. Donald Trump's name was added to California's certified list of candidates by the state's secretary of state, who's a Democrat there, by the way, despite pressure to bar Trump.

Now, a decision from Oregon could come anytime now.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is watching all of this.

Katelyn, it seems like I'm talking to you a lot lately because a lot's going on here.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: There is, John. There's a lot of states where there are challenges on Donald Trump's eligibility to be on the ballot. And now we have two states, Colorado and Maine, coming to the conclusion that he is not eligible because he engaged in insurrection. That's the finding of the Colorado supreme court, the highest court in that state, and then Maine's secretary of state.

One of the things that is happening here is, it's not over. That is quite clear. Even with this definitive ruling from the secretary of state, Shenna Bellows, last night out of Maine, and from Colorado's supreme court, there are going to be additional court challenges. There's already a petition before the U.S. Supreme Court asking the Supreme Court, the nine justices, to look at what Colorado is doing and determine whether that is something they can even do, to remove someone from the primary ballot.

One of the things in that Supreme Court petition, the Colorado Republican Party warned the U.S. Supreme Court, watch out, this is going to be picking up steam. It's going to create chaos. There's going to be other states that follow this.

And Shenna Bellows did say yesterday in her ruling that she acknowledged what was happening in Colorado, looked at some of the things that that court had determined. And even if the Supreme Court steps in, she did not feel that she should be making the judgment call based on what could happen potentially at the Supreme Court, that the possibility did not relieve her of her responsibility of acting here and making a call. And so, in Maine, it may go to the state courts next. The U.S. Supreme

Court, we are still waiting to see exactly what they may do to sort out what should be the law across the land, or will states continue to make decision by decision on what to do with Donald Trump and his name for primary ballots in 2024.

BERMAN: Yes, look, it will be really interesting to see if more states join this list, along with Colorado and Maine, before the U.S. Supreme Court gets directly involved.

Katelyn Polantz, we know you're staying on it. Perhaps we'll talk to you soon about Oregon. Thank you.

POLANTZ: Perhaps.

FREEMAN: This morning a new exclusive look at the dramatic lengths Trump's inner circle took leading up to January 6th. A series of recordings and emails now exposing the haphazard plan to get fake electors to D.C. before the 2020 election was certified. And this all comes after fake elector certificates got stuck in the mail.

CNN's Marshall Cohen has the exclusive details.

Marshall, what are we learning from these new recordings?

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Hey, good morning, Danny.

We've known bits and pieces of this story before, but now we're getting the full picture. And it comes from Ken Chesebro, who in many ways was the architect of this fake electors plot.

As you mentioned, CNN has obtained recordings of his recent interview with Michigan investigators and hundreds of emails that he turned over there. They reveal that last minute scramble on the eve of January 6th to get those fake certificates to D.C.

Here is Chesebro, in his own words, describing what happened when Trump campaign officials realized that the ballots from two key states, Michigan and Wisconsin, were actually stuck in the mail.

[09:10:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH CHESEBRO, PRO-TRUMP ATTORNEY: The general counsel of the Trump campaign is freaked out that Roman reported that the Michigan votes are still in the sorting facility in Michigan, which doesn't look like they're going to get to Pence in time.

So the general counsel of the campaign was alarmed and was chartering -- well, they didn't have to charter a jet, but they did commercial.

This is like -- yes, so this is a high-level decision to get the Michigan and Wisconsin votes there. To -- and they -- and they had to enlist a, you know, a U.S. senator to try to expedite it, to get it -- get it to Pence in time. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: A high-level decision. Now, remember, Danny, they needed to get these ballots to the floor of the House because they wanted Mike Pence to throw out Biden's real electors and replace them with Trump's fake electors.

Now, in the end, the campaign did not need to charter a jet. Staffers booked last minute tickets on commercial flights on January 5th. Once they got to D.C., there was a series of handoffs and couriers that included a meet up at the Trump Hotel and even some help from Senator Ron Johnson. The ballots eventually reached the Capitol in time, but Pence's team said they didn't want them. He refused to go along with the plan.

Danny.

FREEMAN: Marshall, this reporting is wild, just to get a look underneath the hood of all of what was happening leading up to that day.

But, Marshall, tell me, how does this factor into Jack Smith's criminal case against Trump?

COHEN: Well, this whole episode is vaguely referenced in Jack Smith's indictment against Trump. Chesebro is an unindicted co-conspirator in that case. And sources tell CNN that some of the people who were involved in this last minute scramble, including the staffers who were on those flights, they've spoken to Smith's team, but it's not totally clear how many of these new details are going to factor into Donald Trump's trial, which, as you know, is scheduled for March.

Danny.

FREEMAN: Marshall Cohen, great reporting. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

BERMAN: All right, with us now, former federal prosecutor Tim Heaphy. He was the chief investigative counsel for the January 6th Congressional Committee.

Counselor, great to see you here.

Just one quick question on Marshall Cohen and our team's fantastic reporting here on Kenneth Chesebro. The guy seems to know a lot and be saying a lot. As part of their reporting, they noted that Chesebro reached out to Jack Smith's team before he reached the plea deal in Georgia, and he hasn't heard back yet from Jack Smith's team, the federal prosecutors pressing this case. Why might that be?

TIM HEAPHY, FORMER LEAD INVESTIGATOR, HOUSE JANUARY 6TH COMMITTEE: Yes, good question, John. My guess is that Chesebro's information, which is new, he asserted a Fifth Amendment privilege when we interviewed him, the select committee interviewed him, will factor into the special counsel's investigation. The fake elector plot is part of the evidence that will be presented by the special counsel that bears directly upon the president's -- former president's intent to disrupt the joint session. So, whether or not he's been interviewed at this point, my guess is that he will be and that he has information that will be useful to the special counsel.

BERMAN: Anything you see in that report, the CNN report, that creates new legal jeopardy for anyone involved here?

HEAPHY: I mean, we knew the core story, that the RNC, the Trump campaign, were together generating this submission of the fake electors and this was part of an orchestrated multistate plan to submit them to the joint session and to have them be considered by the vice president and the members on the floor.

There's some new details. This is new sort of meat on the bones. Chesebro's account of the sort of frenetic scramble to get them to the Capitol on January 6th is new. But we knew that the RNC and the Trump campaign were coordinating it. And we knew that Vice President Pence ultimately refused to accept them. So, again, the core story is not new.

BERMAN: Let's talk about the 14th amendment, section 3, and the decision now from Maine to follow the lead of Colorado and say that Donald Trump can't be on the primary ballot there. As part of the decision, the secretary of state in Maine said that Donald Trump did engage in insurrection. As someone who was involved with the January 6th Committee, how do you feel about that determination?

HEAPHY: Yes, look, we made the same determination, the select committee did, that the president's actions, not just on January 6th, but leading up to it, incited insurrection. The factual basis for the secretary of state's opinion, the Colorado supreme court's opinion, have been in place for a while.

The legal question is interesting. And the Supreme Court generally steps in when there's a disagreement among lower courts, federal circuit courts or state supreme courts. This one seems ripe for a legal determination as to whether that provision applies to the president, whether he has had significant due process on that factual finding of insurrection. It seems like the Supreme Court really needs to take this case, and on an expedited basis.

[09:15:00]

BERMAN: Yes, you say the legal question is interesting. There's really a lot more than one legal question involved here.

HEAPHY: Yes.

BERMAN: One, did the president engage in an insurrection, which the January 6th Committee says he did. And, number two, can states decide here? What's the role of a state to decide whether a candidate or a person engaged in insurrection here, where do you see the Supreme Court weighing in, when and if they do?

HEAPHY: Yes, it's a good question. So, elections generally are the domain of state governments. They are run by individual state governments. That is the way our federalist system operates. But the interpretation of a constitutional provision, whether or not the section 3 of the 14th amendment itself executing or can be implemented by state officials, that is an open legal question that the court will have to decide.

Again, I think given that we have had different interpretations of that legal question, that is exactly the kind of situation in which the court typically steps in.

BERMAN: Do you think, when it comes down to it, the court will decide one way or the other whether they think Donald Trump engaged in insurrection or they look to find some other area here to weigh in and make their choice?

HEAPHY: Well, the Supreme Court doesn't typically find facts, they rely upon facts that are adjudicated by lower courts. The Colorado court, for example, had a trial judge find as fact that the president engaged in insurrection. The Supreme Court generally interprets questions of law. Now here there's sort of an intersection between the fact and the law, and that's a question of due process. The court may find that the factual finding was not the product of due process, the president didn't have a sufficient opportunity to challenge those facts.

But, again, the Supreme Court is not going to generally make findings of fact, they're going to defer to the findings of fact of lower courts and ensure that the process by which those facts were found was fair.

BERMAN: It will be hugely interesting to see where and how they approach this.

Tim, thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate it. Happy New Year.

HEAPHY: Thanks, John. You, too.

FREEMAN: All right, coming up next, Nikki Haley is in New Hampshire this morning trying to bounce back from those comments she made about the Civil War, but the tough questions just keep on coming, even from a nine-year-old.

Plus, monster swells on the California coastline. And the threat's not over. Oh, my God, look at that. Today, 40-foot waves are possible across the San Francisco Bay.

Plus, a new surveillance video is providing an important clue in the fatal shootings of a pregnant teenager and her boyfriend.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:21:45]

BERMAN: You are looking at live pictures of former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley. She is hosting a town hall in Concord, New Hampshire, the capital of that state. New Hampshire, of course, is the first primary state in the nation. A key voting state.

And Nikki Haley has spent the last few days in cleanup mode, which is not where she wants to be. She is still facing backlash from comments she made the other day where she avoided saying that slavery was the cause of the Civil War. The morning after she said that, she tried to clarify her stance, some saying, of course she knows that slavery was at the root of the Civil War, and she blamed Democrats for planting the question. However, the Civil War was the Civil War, whether or not Democrats asked about it.

CNN's Eva McKend is following Nikki Haley around the state of New Hampshire and joins us this morning.

Eva.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

Yes, Ambassador Haley, she is about to address a crowd here in Concord. She's just trying to move on from this as best that she can. Her rivals, though, not making it easy because, you know, her indirect response to the Civil War question really lent itself to a lot of the concerns that many of those rivals have addressed, that maybe she'll say one thing on abortion here in New Hampshire that differs in Iowa.

Chris Christie really doubling down on that sentiment. He's campaigning here in New Hampshire as well today.

Take a listen to what he told "CNN THIS MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This has been her whole campaign. She does not want to offend anyone. She won't tell the truth about Donald Trump. Even though she knows that he was the cause of January 6th, she won't say it. Even though she knows that he regularly lies, she won't say it.

She was asked by a voter again in New Hampshire, would she categorically rule out being Donald Trump's vice president? And she won't answer the question.

These are simple questions to a smart woman. And when she doesn't answer them, you have to believe she's been a slippery, slick politician.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKEND: And so now this really all boils down to what the voters think. And I can tell you that many New Hampshire supporters of her are sympathetic to the -- her walk-back on this, her cleanup of this. One man telling me last night that he believes that the question on the Civil War was posed to her to trip her up. Another woman telling me that she's not concerned about the controversy, that she's really looking forward and interested in Haley's policies on a number of matters, and this does not rank high as a concern. Another woman telling me that she feels as though female politicians are underestimated and she's proud to support Haley in the primary.

Haley will have this last stop here in Concord. She has a lot of enthusiasm on the ground because she's joined by the popular governor here, Chris Sununu, and then she will head on to Iowa for a slew of stops there.

BERMAN: All right, Eva McKend in Concord, New Hampshire, this morning. Eva, keep us posted as the Nikki Haley event continues. Thank you.

FREEMAN: All right, for more on this we are joined now by Republican strategist and former RNC communications director, Doug Heye, and Washington correspondent for "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution," Tia Mitchell.

[09:25:07]

All right, day two of Civil War fallout here.

Tia, let's start with you.

I know you spoke with CNN a lot yesterday as this was all unfolding. Haley now has had some time to try and clean this up. From your perspective, has she fixed this?

TIA MITCHELL, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, "THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION": Well, you know, the word "fix" is doing a lot of work in your question, and that's very subjective because I think there are some voters who probably weren't bothered by her comments to begin with, especially as she shifts back to Iowa. But the concern that she raised, how she answered the question, and what it says kind of about her inclinations when it comes to topics of race, her inclinations when it comes to hard questions that may offend more conservative, hard-right voters. I think those questions are going to linger.

Now, she was always, you know, either a distant third in most polls to be quite frankly. So, did it help her move up? Definitely not. But is it going to change the status of the race where she still, quite frankly, fighting with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis to trail Donald Trump by a lot? It doesn't seem like it changed that, either.

FREEMAN: Well, Doug, so that's what I've been trying to figure out after this whole discussion here. Do you think that this could actually hurt or help her standing with the New Hampshire Republican primary voters? I guess, will this potentially put her support in jeopardy?

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, Danny, I spent the last six days in North Carolina for the holidays, so meaning outside of Washington, D.C. And what I learned when I was home is what I learn every time I go outside of Washington, D.C., or the island of Manhattan, the conversation outside of those two places is always different. What we talk about in Washington and in New York is not what people talk about in North or South Carolina, New Hampshire or Iowa or anywhere else in the rest of the country. Look, it was a mistake. It was a bad answer by Nikki Haley. The

Republican Party and the Republican candidates have a real problem talking about obvious truths, that Joe Biden won fair and square, that slavery was the root cause of the Civil War, that Duke basketball is evil, that the sun rises in the east, and that when your opponent is indicted you use it against them. But that's not the conversation that voters throughout the country are having. That's not where New Hampshire voters are.

So, the problem for Haley here isn't just what she said, yes, that's a problem, it's the timing. And the time is a problem for Haley because we heard for weeks and weeks about Nikki-mentum. The reality is, it wasn't there until the last week or two when we really saw a shift in the polls. That's the problem for Haley now. She can pivot around this.

Look, we're not at -- we're not at New Year's Eve yet, much less New Year's Day. That's when New Hampshire voters are going to be even more focused on this. If she has a sharp message, and we know she has sharp elbows, then she can do well.

FREEMAN: Well, and I think that, you know, this is going to be far from the only surprise that we see leading up to both Iowa and New Hampshire.

Just, a last note on this, Tia, I want to ask you, DeSantis and Christie, though, to both of these points, they've really jumped on this. Do you think that either of them, I guess, got this question right after the fact?

MITCHELL: Well, I mean, I think both of them were able to Monday morning quarterback her answer and really drill down on why it was problematic. I think Chris Christie probably has a little bit more credibility on being a, quote/unquote, truth teller, and that's what he's really focused on in attacking Haley on her answer. We know that Governor DeSantis has had his own problems with how he's spoken about issues of race. And I don't think people are really convinced that in the moment the way Nikki Haley was that Ron DeSantis would have been so much better. You know, of course we'll never know. But, again, I think Chris Christie comes across with a little bit more credibility. But, again, he's positioned himself as that truth teller. It's not helping necessarily him win any of the primaries, but it is giving him that status as someone who's willing to say the hard thing.

FREEMAN: All right, for both of you I want to turn to the other hard- hitting question of the day yesterday, Haley was also questioned by a nine-year-old.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, Chris Christie thinks that you are a flip- flopper on the Donald Trump issue. And, honestly, I agree with him. And -- you're basically the new John Kerry on the -- if you remember John Kerry from 2004. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's the question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, my question is, how -- how can you be -- how can you change your opinion like that in just eight years and will you pardon Donald Trump?

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would pardon Trump. What's in the best interest of the country is not to have an 80-year- old man sitting in jail that continues to divide our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FREEMAN: All right, Doug, how'd that go for Nikki Haley?

HEYE: Oh, look, I think the comment is one that, again, political observers will wag at that you're the new John Kerry.