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Interview With Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine William Taylor; New Information Emerges on Fake Elector Plot; Massive Russian Strikes on Ukraine; Maine Bans Trump From Ballot. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 29, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:01:33]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Another state removing Donald Trump from its primary ballot, Maine joining Colorado in blocking the former president based on the Constitution's insurrectionist ban, but the secretary of state in Maine pausing her decision as it makes its way through the courts. The next steps and the legal challenges ahead.

Plus: unprecedented strikes on Ukraine, a barrage of Russian missile and drone attacks leaving the country reeling. Why the timing is significant and why this puts more pressure on U.S. lawmakers.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And towering waves pummel the California coast, with one wave carrying away nearly 20 people, sending eight to the hospital, while the West Coast could see more dangerous swells for the weekend.

We're following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: Good afternoon, and welcome to CNN NEWS CENTRAL. I'm Boris Sanchez, alongside Brianna Keilar, in the nation's capital.

And, look, the constitutional confusion over the race for 2024 is intensifying. A second state is now banning Donald Trump from its ballot based on his actions tied to the January 6 attack on the Capitol.

KEILAR: This time, it is Maine.

Secretary of State Shenna Bellows has announced she is siding with three voters who challenged the listing of Trump's name, saying that he should be removed based on the Constitution's 14th Amendment.

And this part of this part of the amendment, it says, no insurrectionist shall hold -- quote -- "any office."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHENNA BELLOWS, MAINE SECRETARY OF STATE: That Section 3 of the 14th Amendment does not say conviction. It says engage.

And let's go back and keep in mind that the events of January 6, 2021, were unprecedented and tragic. And the weight of evidence that I reviewed indicated that it was, in fact, an insurrection, and Mr. Trump engaged in that insurrection under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Bellows mentions in her written decision here the Colorado Supreme Court ruling that removed Trump from Colorado's ballot. Colorado's Republican Party just filing an appeal there.

SANCHEZ: And Maine's Republican Party chair said that you should expect the same from Republicans there.

Let's turn now to CNN's Marshall Cohen. He's been tracking the 14th Amendment challenges throughout the country.

So, Marshall, just like in Colorado, Maine also pausing the removal of Trump's name for now.

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: For now. And then there were two.

Here we are, Maine, Colorado. After weeks and months of challenges, two states have moved forward with the unprecedented decision to remove Trump from the ballot. You heard there from Shenna Bellows, who is a Democrat, explaining her rationale.

She viewed it as her legal obligation to remove Trump from the ballot because she swore an oath to the Constitution too when she became the secretary of state. And she presided over a hearing with evidence and testimony. And she said that, as a matter of fact, a matter of law, that January 6 was an insurrection, Donald Trump engaged in the insurrection, and the Constitution bans someone like him from being able to take office.

There are appeals that you mentioned, Boris, that are definitely going to be pursued by Trump and maybe the Maine Republican Party as well. And those sides are reacting with a lot of anger.

Here's a statement from Steven Cheung, who is the top spokesman for the Trump campaign. He said last night: "Make no mistake, these partisan election interference efforts are a hostile assault on American democracy. Biden and the Democrats simply do not want the American voter -- do not trust the American voter in a free and fair election."

[13:05:08]

They have been saying...

(SNEEZING)

M. COHEN: Bless you.

They have been saying that, if you can't beat him at the polls, they're trying to beat him at the courts. But, look, there will be appeals. This is not the final word, but this is a watershed moment of the quest for accountability for January 6.

KEILAR: I'm just allergic to all the chaos, I think is what it is.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

M. COHEN: Then you're not going to like next year.

KEILAR: Oh, my goodness. I will get ready. I will take my meds.

OK, so you said, and then there was two. But maybe there will be three. What about Oregon?

M. COHEN: There's another case. Now we're all going to look toward Oregon out in the Pacific Northwest.

There are some filings due today from the Trump team to file their final opposition to this case in Oregon. It's still pending. And after that is in, then the Oregon court, and it's the Oregon Supreme Court, will be able to issue their decision at any time.

But, as you can see here, different states have reached different conclusions. Trump was kicked off in Colorado and Maine, but he prevailed in Michigan, Minnesota and other places. There's a smattering of outcomes. It's why every legal expert that we have on our shows here and every legal expert anywhere has said that we need some guidance from the Supreme Court, the U.S. Supreme Court.

That's what they're here for, after all.

KEILAR: All right, Marshall, thank you so much for that.

And our next guest is one of the voters, all former state lawmakers, who challenged Donald Trump's name on the Maine ballot.

Ethan Strimling is a Democrat and a former state senator and a former mayor of Portland as well.

Mayor, thanks for being with us.

What was your immediate reaction when you learned that the secretary of state had sided with you and the two other voters who filed with you, both of whom are or were Republicans?

ETHAN STRIMLING (D), FORMER MAYOR OF PORTLAND, MAINE: You know, my first reaction was a good day for democracy, good day for our Constitution. It made clear that the rule of law applies to everybody in America, no matter what office you may or may not have held.

Hard to imagine that a president would commit insurrection against our country. But I'm glad to know that the laws that we have in place are going to protect us from the possibility that that person could be sent back to the White House.

KEILAR: This, of course, won't be the end of it, Maine's Republican Party chair saying the state party is going to appeal here.

What do you think is your side's strongest argument to push back on the appeal?

STRIMLING: Well, the strongest argument is that he is an insurrectionist and that the Constitution bars insurrectionists from running for president.

We have now had three judicial bodies, two in Colorado, one in Maine, that have looked at the evidence, given Donald Trump his day in court to try to refute that evidence. And those three bodies have all said, no, indeed, what we all saw on January 6 is actually what happened, and he is an insurrectionist.

And two of those judicial bodies have determined that the 14th Amendment applies to the president.

So I think our strongest evidence, without doubt, is Donald Trump's actions. He's the reason that we're here. He's the reason that we're in these unprecedented times.

KEILAR: What are you expecting from the Supreme Court when this gets there?

STRIMLING: Well, that's hard.

I mean, the Supreme Court obviously has become much more partisan. And there's a lot of members of the Supreme Court, three of them, that were appointed by Donald Trump. I don't expect, although I think that he should, Clarence Thomas should recuse himself.

So it will be tough. But I'm hopeful that, when and if it gets there, they will put aside their partisanship, just as our secretary of state did, just as the judges in Colorado did, and look at the law. It's kind of hard to look at this and say that that wasn't an insurrection on January 6, that Donald Trump didn't incite that insurrection, invited people to Washington, and then sent them to the Capitol, and that the 14th Amendment, of course, applies to him.

So I'm hopeful. Maybe hopeful is too strong of a term. I think it might be possible that the Supreme Court will put aside their partisanship and do the right thing, but we shall see.

KEILAR: Of course, there are lots of things, right, that they will -- that they could take issue with here.

We don't know what it might be if it goes that way. But if they don't side with Colorado, if they don't side with Maine, what do you think happens then?

STRIMLING: Well, I think it undermines the 14th Amendment, for sure. It undermines Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.

And it means that a person who has committed insurrection against our country will be allowed to run for president again. And that will be very unfortunate. But what I'm confident of is that, if they rule that way, we will all -- those of us who believe differently, will respect the decision.

Of course, we have not seen that from Donald Trump. Any time our courts have ruled against him or the people have voted against him, he considers that to be a rigged decision, and he opposes it every time.

[13:10:07]

So I think, on our side, those who are really trying to make sure that the Constitution and the rule of law applies will accept whatever decision comes down. I hope that Donald Trump and his supporters will as well. They don't have a track record for that, unfortunately, but, hopefully, in this case, they will.

KEILAR: Mayor Ethan Strimling, we appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. Obviously, we will be watching to see how this develops.

STRIMLING: Thanks. Glad to be here.

KEILAR: And now to a CNN exclusive on the lengths that Trump -- the Trump campaign and its supporters allegedly went to overturn the 2020 election.

SANCHEZ: CNN has obtained messages and audio that show fake elector certificates were actually flown to Washington right before January 6, and those ballots were from two key states, Wisconsin and Michigan.

Let's get the details now from CNN's Zachary Cohen. He's part of the team that broke that story.

So, Zach, what do these e-mails and recordings reveal about the effort to overturn the 2020 election that we didn't know before?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, guys, it really does shed new light on just how far Trump campaign officials and operatives went to execute what was really what Jack Smith has said is a core pillar of the effort to overturn the 2020 election.

And that includes new details about this mad scramble that took place on the eve of January 6, right before Mike Pence was supposed to go to the Capitol and certify Joe Biden's win. This scramble took place because the Trump campaign officials realized that two of these certificates were stuck in the mail.

Now, take a listen to what Ken Chesebro, who's been described as the architect of the fake elector plot, told investigators in Michigan about this scramble and about the reaction of top Trump campaign officials.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

KENNETH CHESEBRO, ATTORNEY: The general counsel of the Trump campaign is freaked out that Roman reported that the Michigan votes are still in the sorting facility, Michigan, and it doesn't look like they're going to get to Pence in time.

So the general counsel of campaign was alarmed and was chartering -- or they didn't have to charter a jet, but they did commercial. This is like -- yes, so this is a high-level decision to get the Michigan and Wisconsin votes there, to -- and they had to enlist a U.S. senator to try to expedite it, to get it to Pence in time.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

Z. COHEN: So, according to Chesebro, the Trump campaign even considered chartering a private jet to fly a staffer from Michigan and Wisconsin to D.C. to deliver these physical copies of the fake certificates, because the idea was Mike Pence had to bring those certificates to the House floor in order for them to be counted, if he actually went through with the plan to reject Biden's legitimate electors.

So, really taking you behind the scenes here of what happened in just even the days leading up to January 6 and how this fake elector plot does tie in with the broader effort to pressure Mike Pence and also overturn the election overall.

KEILAR: Zach, how could this all fit into Jack Smith's criminal case against Trump?

Z. COHEN: Yes, Brianna, we know that this episode is vaguely referenced in Jack Smith's indictment of Trump.

It remains to be seen, though, how this might fit into a trial or if it even plays a large role. We do know from sources that Ken Chesebro has reached out to Jack Smith and effectively offered to cooperate, but he has not heard back yet from the special counsel's office, which is an interesting sort of radio silence, left on read situation there.

He's an unindicted co-conspirator in the federal case. Obviously, we know, too, that Chesebro is cooperating in seven state-level investigations focused on fake electors. So, we will have to see how this plays out, but we do know Jack Smith has some of these details, and it remains to be seen, though, if it plays a role in a trial.

SANCHEZ: Yes, it doesn't feel great to be left on read, especially when there are potential criminal charges pending.

Zach Cohen, thanks so much for the update.

Still ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL: more than two dozen killed and 120 injured in the largest Russian air attack on Ukraine since the invasion began. What this might mean for the trajectory of the war.

KEILAR: Plus, just monster waves slamming the California coast. Check this one out. This was a 20-foot wall of water sweeping away and injuring several people in Ventura. We will have more on the dangerous and powerful storm.

And preparations for New Year's Eve under way, as a new intelligence assessment says Times Square remains an attractive target for terrorists. The president of the Times Square Alliance will be joining us to talk about security.

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[13:19:00]

SANCHEZ: Today, Israel says it's stepping up military operations around the city of Khan Yunis in Southern Gaza. The IDF says it's eliminated dozens of Hamas members using aerial strikes, sniper, and tank fire.

Also in the south, in the city of Rafah, 21 people were killed, dozens more injured, after an apparent Israeli airstrike hit a residential building. That's according to the director at the hospital receiving the victims' bodies.

KEILAR: Meantime, in Central Gaza, a hospital official says 35 Palestinians died in Israeli attacks on residential buildings. The U.N. says the humanitarian crisis in that part of the territory is growing even more dire, warning that over 150,000 people have nowhere to go after the IDF told residents in many parts of Central Gaza to urgently evacuate.

And, right now, dozens of people are dead and more than 100 injured after Russia launched its biggest wave of air attacks across Ukraine since the start of the war. Ukraine says a huge barrage of missiles and drones struck civilian targets in multiple regions.

[13:20:03]

SANCHEZ: Nearly 50 homes, as well as apartment buildings, a school, even a maternity hospital were damaged or completely destroyed. At the hospital, 12 pregnant women and four newborn babies were unhurt, as they moved to a shelter as soon as air raids -- air raid alarms sounded.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is now vowing to strike back.

We caught up with CNN Portugal's Helena Lins on the ground in Kyiv just a short time ago. Here's her report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HELENA LINS, CNN PORTUGAL INTERNATIONAL REPORTER: Yes, it's in the morning we were in an area where a business building was hit.

It was not being used, so partly destroyed, but no people inside. Also, from the other side of the street, there was a metro station that was also hit. It was -- the main entrance was closed. People could still access it from another side, and the metro was already working.

Right now, we are not very far from that area, but actually in a place where there's some warehouses. And these warehouses behind me was actually hit during this attack.

Let me just take you inside and show you what -- actually, the destruction that is inside, because the warehouse was hit. It caught fire. When we arrived here, the smoke was still very visible from the outside. Right now, we can still see smoke in the inside.

The smell is actually also strong, and, for some time, we couldn't access the inside of the warehouse, because firefighters were still trying to stabilize so nothing could actually fall.

We now have permission to enter. And, as you can see, there is -- the structure is completely destroyed. The roof of the warehouse is totally destroyed, and we are actually walking most of the time on shattered glasses, on fragments of the warehouse, but also of the equipment that was inside.

I was speaking with the general manager of the company, which is actually a German company working in Ukraine, and he was telling me there is only electrotechnical equipment here, there's no weapons, and it's now mostly destroyed, so warehouses destroyed. They will have to look for a new one.

What is inside, they're trying to understand whether or not they can still recover something, and now estimating also the cost of the destruction. The company is still going to continue working in Ukraine. That's at least what he was telling me. But it's very difficult right now to recover from all this loss.

You there was no one inside the warehouse when the attack happened. It was in the early hours in the morning. But, speaking with the firefighters, at least -- I mean, two people asked for -- to be assisted by the emergency services, because this was the main warehouse that was hit, but there's also other buildings around.

So two people needed to be assisted by the emergency services. As I was telling you, firefighters are still here. Work is still being done in these warehouses. There's still a lot of smoke. And the smell is really strong. But, as you were saying, not only Kyiv was hit, which was very unexpected.

We know sirens have been going off in the capital for almost every day, but it was not -- no one was expecting this size of destruction, but also other cities in Ukraine. And this shows the scale of the attack of last night and this morning.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Helena Lins, thank you so much for that report.

As Ukraine is reeling from this largest Russian air attack in nearly two years, President Biden says it is proof that Vladimir Putin's intentions have not changed, but the Russian president still wants to obliterate Ukraine. Biden also reiterated his call for Congress to pass billions in new aid.

Joining us now to discuss is former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Bill Taylor. He's also vice president for Russia and Europe at the U.S. Institute of Peace.

Ambassador, thank you so much for being with us. Before we get into this round of attacks in Ukraine, I do want to ask

you about the latest bit of news coming from the White House, and that is that President Biden has been closely tracking a missile that Poland claims flew over its airspace from Russia, a Russian missile in NATO airspace.

I'm wondering what your reaction to that is and how Poland should potentially respond.

WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Boris, this just demonstrates that the war in Ukraine, Russia's war on Ukraine is not going to stop just at Ukraine.

Ukraine must stop the Russians, so that the Russians don't go further. This track of this missile across Poland, from probably Belarus, through Poland, back into Ukraine is a demonstration that this is not going to stop just with Ukraine.

[13:25:03]

And the Poles have been consulting with the -- with their NATO allies, including the United States, to see if there is a response that would be necessary.

SANCHEZ: So, given the intensity of these most recent attacks, Ambassador, and obviously the division in the West over providing aid to Ukraine, do you think this is a sign that Vladimir Putin feels emboldened, like the war is now tipping in his favor?

TAYLOR: Boris, I don't think the war is tipping in his favor.

I think what this will do, I think this big attack today will send the strong message that you just mentioned to the American people, to the Europeans, and to their parliaments, and to our Congress. It's in the power of our Congress to provide the weapons, to provide the means for the Ukrainians to push back against this assault, these kinds of assaults.

This is standing by. The Congress has its power when it comes back from its vacation, from its work in its districts, when it comes back in early January. So, next week, it has the ability to provide the weapons, provide the assistance, provide the money necessary to provide the Ukrainians the ability to push back against the Russians.

This is the message of this attack today.

SANCHEZ: In terms of Vladimir Putin's calculus, he is up for reelection in March. I'm wondering how you think that factors into this latest wave of attacks in that context.

TAYLOR: Well, of course, Boris, the outcome is not a doubt of that election.

However, I'm sure that President Putin has told his military that he wants some kind of achievement, some kind of victory. And so they're pushing, the Russians are pushing all along the front. They're pushing, and mainly on the ground. They're pushing their soldiers, the convicts that they have pulled out of their prison, in human waves time after time in various places across the front to try to get some kind of a victory that President Putin can point to enable him to say to the Russian people that this is worth it.

It's clearly not worth it so far. And the Ukrainians have been pushing back so hard, defending so strongly that they don't have -- that the Russians don't have anything to support. The Russians have actually been pushed back out of the western part of the Black Sea, Boris, so that the momentum in the naval warfare is clearly on the Ukrainians' side.

SANCHEZ: Yes, this can be seen as retribution for that recent Ukrainian attack in the Black Sea that was successful.

It does come as CNN has reported that there are new deliberations within the Kremlin to signal openness toward a potential cease-fire. Simultaneously, CNN had reporting last month that the White House was urging Ukraine towards sending similar signals.

Do any of those recent developments give you hope that there might be some kind of peaceful resolution the horizon?

TAYLOR: Boris, if President Putin wants to signal an interest in negotiating, he has a way to do that, and that is pull his troops out. Stop the fighting. Stop these barrages. Stop these bombardments all across Ukraine.

This is not a message. This kind of bombardment is not a message that he's interested in negotiating, none whatsoever. I have not heard anything from the U.S. government either that indicates that they are ready to push the Ukrainians to do something that the Ukrainians don't want to do. The Ukrainians clearly want the Russians out of their country, and they're willing to keep pushing as long as they have got the assistance.

I go back to this question of U.S. assistance to the Ukrainians that can be voted on next week, in the next two weeks. That's going to be the message that goes to the Kremlin.

SANCHEZ: Ambassador Bill Taylor, we have to leave the conversation there. Very much appreciate your time, sir.

TAYLOR: Thank you, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Still plenty of news to get to on NEWS CENTRAL, including New York authorities on high alert, as millions get ready to flood Times Square for New Year's Eve. How officials are making sure that revelers stay safe.

Plus: a university chancellor in Wisconsin removed from his post after reports that he posted pornographic films he made with his wife on the Internet. What the university is saying about his firing.

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