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Maine Joins Colorado in Removing Trump from 2024 Ballot; Recordings & Emails Reveal Frenzy to Get 2020 Fake Ballots to DC; Russia Launches Biggest Air Attack on Ukraine Since Start of War; Report: Recent Netanyahu Call Among Most "Frustrating" for Biden. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 29, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: "The Constitution does not tolerate an assault on our government." Those are the words of Maine's Secretary of State as she defends her decision to remove Donald Trump from the state's 2024 primary ballot. What this means for the election as the Supreme Court faces another consequential case.

Plus, Russia launching the largest air attack on Ukraine since the war began nearly two years ago. Dozens of people killed, many more injured. Ukraine now renewing its call for more international aid.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And "this conversation is over." Those words highlight a new report about a contentious call between President Biden and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, just the latest sign of daylight - significant daylight between the two leaders.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

It is the top of the hour. Hi, there. I'm Brianna Keilar with Boris Sanchez here in Washington.

And former president, Trump, just took another major hit in the battles to keep his names on state ballots in 2024. Maine just joining Colorado in banning his name from its state primary election based on the 14th Amendment's ban on insurrectionists holding office. Secretary of State, Shenna Bellows ruled last night that Trump is disqualified based on his acts tied to the January 6th attack on the Capitol.

SANCHEZ: She sided with three Maine voters who filed the challenge against Trump. They're all former state lawmakers and it's a bipartisan group. One of them, the former mayor of Portland, told us earlier that he's now looking to the Supreme Court to make the ultimate call as Maine Republicans vowed to file an appeal just as the party did in Colorado. Here's part of our conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ETHAN STRIMLING, CHALLENGED TRUMP'S ELIGIBILITY FOR MAINE BALLOT: Anytime our courts have ruled against him, or the people have voted against him, he considers that to be a rigged decision and he opposes it every time. So I think on our side, those who are really trying to make sure that the Constitution and the rule of law applies will accept whatever decision comes down. I hope that Donald Trump and his supporters will as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent, Paula Reid, joins us now.

Paula, this is just complicating the 2024 Election further.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. Look, it's clear. The Supreme Court has to weigh in here. Right now, we have a split across multiple states in this country on several key constitutional questions. This is what the Supreme Court does. They are the final word, right, on the meaning of the Constitution. And also, they are the ones who resolve disputes between the states. If they don't weigh in here, I mean, this could really be a disaster for the 2024 Election.

Now, let's take a step back and look at what's happened here. Over the past several months, this question of Trump's ballot, eligibility has been litigated across different states with varying outcomes. As you noted, Colorado and Maine have both concluded that he should be removed from the ballot under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution. Section 3 of that 14th Amendment bars anyone from holding office who is engaged in an insurrection.

And those two states, in one case, the State Supreme Court of Colorado, in the other case, the Secretary of State, the first stop for questions of ballot eligibility in Maine, both concluded that not only did he engage in an insurrection, but that this applies to presidents, which some other states have said is not clear and have removed him.

But we've seen in other states, Minnesota, Michigan, New Hampshire, Arizona, they've gone the other way. Now, I will note, in some of those cases, they haven't even gotten to the merits, just procedurally. They have not opted to go through a trial and make conclusions. But even in California today, the Secretary of State opted to include him, not to take him off the ballot. We're still waiting for Oregon. So it was interesting earlier this week.

Trump has not appealed these decisions. We expect he will. But the Republican Party of Colorado filed an appeal to the Supreme Court earlier this week and it crystallizes the three big questions that need to be resolved. The first, does the 14th Amendment Section 3, does that apply to presidents, because it doesn't specifically say. And some judges who have looked at this have said, look, it doesn't say presidents, so it shouldn't apply to presidents. Others see it differently. Then the next question is, okay, if it applies to presidents, are states the entity that should enforce this or is there some role for Congress, as other constitutional scholars have seen.

[15:05:07]

And then there's this other constitutional question, okay, if all of that is true, does this possibly infringe on another constitutional right, the First Amendment, other Republicans, to choose who they want as their candidate. This is a series of fascinating constitutional questions. There is no clear answer. It must come from the Supreme Court.

And I think this is going to be my slogan for 2024, all eyes on the Supreme Court to see what they do, the first of many questions. But if they don't resolve this, this will continue to be litigated probably up until Election Day.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Layers and layers of legal arguments, really uncharted territory (inaudible) ...

REID: As we always are with former President Trump.

SANCHEZ: A hundred percent.

REID: He's - he brings up all these constitutional questions that have never been contemplated before.

SANCHEZ: Paula Reid, thank you so much for the reporting.

Staying on the issue of interference in the 2020 Election, CNN has learned new and exclusive details of the frenzy to overturn Donald Trump's election defeat in time before January 6th. The plot involved Trump's campaign members and their operatives trying to fly fake elector ballots to the nation's capital.

KEILAR: Yes, the certificates were from the key swing states of Michigan and Wisconsin.

We have CNN's Zach Cohen, who is part of the team that uncovered this exclusive and very important story here.

So Zach, what do the emails and the audio recordings show about this? What did we not know here before?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, guys, they really shed new light on the extent to which Trump campaign officials, operatives and even some Republican members of Congress were working together to try and prevent Joe Biden from assuming office by using these fake electors and that plan was predicated on getting physical copies of these fake elector certificates from seven key swing states from those states to Washington, D.C. before January 6th.

And we were learning new details about a mad scramble that took place on the eve of January 6th when Trump campaign officials realized that two of those certificates were stuck in the mail. Take a listen to what Ken Chesebro, who's been described by prosecutors as the architect of the fake electors plot, what he told investigators in Michigan about this scramble and about sort of the panic that ensued when they realized the certificates were stuck in the mail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH CHESEBRO, PRO-TRUMP ATTORNEY: The general counsel of the Trump campaign is freaked out that Roman reported that the Michigan votes are still in the sorting facility in Michigan, which doesn't look like they're going to get to Pence in time. So the general counsel of the campaign was alarmed and was chartering - they didn't have to charter a jet, but they did commercial. This is like, yes, so this is a high- level" ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

CHESEBRO: ... "decision to get the Michigan and Wisconsin votes there. To - and they had to enlist a U.S. senator to try to expedite it, to get it to Pence in time."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: So according to Chesebro, getting these certificates in the hands of Mike Pence by January 6th was so important, they considered chartering a private jet to fly staffers from those two states to Washington, D.C. Ultimately, they just flew them commercial. But still, they had to enlist the help of a sitting U.S. senator to get those documents or try to get those documents to Pence. We do know that when approached with the - about the documents, Pence and a Pence staffer refused to take them, so - and ultimately certified Joe Biden's win.

But really a look behind the curtain here about what was happening behind the scenes as Trump campaign officials were trying to make sure these certificates got to D.C. on January 6th.

SANCHEZ: And Zach, some of the new reporting also shows that one Trump attorney may not have given the full truth to the House committee that was investigating January 6th.

COHEN: Yes. According to Chesebro, Matthew Morgan, who was at the time the general counsel for the Trump campaign, one of the top Trump campaign lawyers, he was overseeing and helping oversee the day to day sort of operations related to the fake electors plot. And emails that he has given to prosecutors in Michigan do show that Morgan was communicating with Chesebro and other operatives about how to get these certificates to Washington, D.C.

Now, that does not match up with what Morgan told the January 6th Committee. He said that he tried to distance himself from the fake electors plot. He had a problem with it. He was concerned that it would make life difficult for Mike Pence. But ultimately, documents do show that he was still engaging in these discussions as late as the day before January 6th.

So it'll be interesting to see how Morgan squares those two comments. We asked his attorneys. He - they said that he stands by his testimony to the January 6th Committee, but really a gap there. And it does show how these two teams of Trump operatives and Trump lawyers really - it was messy and there was a lot of overlap happening there.

SANCHEZ: Zach Cohen, very much appreciate the reporting. Thanks so much.

Let's dig deeper now with Michigan's top election official, Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson - Benson, I should say.

Secretary Benson, thank you so much for being with us. You were on CNN last night talking about your desire to see a wide net that would bring all those involved in this scheme to account, not just the fake electors, but also campaign officials and significantly lawmakers who we learned aided in this effort.

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I'm wondering what you think that looks like and is it a federal prosecution beyond what the Justice Department is doing now?

JOCELYN BENSON, (D) MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, thanks for having me. And to start, I do think the Justice Department is casting a wide net, certainly in my testimony and my conversations and everything that I've observed. This is a no stone - leave no stone unturned investigation, as it should be, because the goal is not just to seek justice and accountability for those who are part of this unprecedented effort to undermine and overturn and block the will of the people. But also to make sure it doesn't happen again and that there are clear consequences when these types of things are attempted, so the wide net is critical.

And then in addition to that, you do need the state level prosecutions, particularly in the battleground states like Georgia, like Michigan, like we're seeing, because none of the high level machinations and plans would have been operational had you didn't - if you hadn't had willing co-conspirators at the local level in the states. So you've got to look to the states as well to seek accountability and that is what's playing out in Michigan as well as in Georgia and in other states as well as we move forward.

SANCHEZ: I'm curious, Secretary, about the lawmaker aspect of it, though. Someone like Sen. Ron Johnson of Wisconsin who was involved in this plot, what does accountability in your eyes look like for him?

BENSON: Well, there's always been two paths of accountability, legal accountability, where the law applies and where criminal or civil proceedings could seek justice. But there's also political accountability. I think voters need to take seriously their responsibility to look at a wide array of issues on the ballot, but when you have lawmakers, politicians who have lied, who spread lies, who took part in an effort to undermine or overturn the will of the people, voters have the power to hold them accountable at the ballot box and speak clearly that that's not the type of leader they want representing them in Washington. SANCHEZ: So in Michigan, the attorney general there has charged 16 fake electors. One of them has decided to comply with the investigation. All charges have been dropped against him in cooperation - in exchange for his cooperation. But now that the full scope of this plan has come into focus and it appears that the pressure is mounting on these fake electors, I'm wondering what your message is to those who are facing criminal charges in Michigan.

BENSON: Well, I think, as we've seen, I believe, in Wisconsin and potentially in other states, cooperation at this point is far more beneficial. I say this as an attorney as well, as a former dean of a law school. Then in cooperating with the process helps us get to justice for individuals who were at the bottom rungs of the scheme for what it's - or for the state level of the scheme to help us uncover or help investigators uncover the depths through which and the highest levels of which that this went and seek accountability for those high level pieces as well, so cooperation helps that.

And a lot of the discussion among people that that has been public among those who have been charged have said, well, we didn't know what we were getting into. And if that's possible, and I suspect it's not now, certainly they knew what they were a part of and now is the time to say, you know what, this was not something I want to be a part of and I want to help those seeking justice as opposed to standing in the way of the efforts to seek accountability.

SANCHEZ: Secretary, while we have you, I want to get your reaction to the decision by Maine's secretary of state to kick Donald Trump off the primary ballot there. A similar effort failed in your state, though the door is still open for future challenges. How do you think the Supreme Court is going to weigh in on that case? And further, how are you preparing for the possibility that we may see this tried again with a general election ballot?

BENSON: We're preparing for all those possibilities and all things looking to the U.S. Supreme Court to provide clarity for election administrators, for voters, for the Republican Party. And sooner rather than later, I think a lot has been made and tried to be made of this as a cut and dried issue. It's really not the legal definition of insurrection. The legal definition of aided and abetted has really never been decided or interpreted by the U.S. Supreme Court in this type of context and we really as a country need that.

And ultimately, the Supreme Court's job is to provide that clarity if we're going to move forward into this 2024 Election cycle with our ducks aligned and with voters empowered to make the best decision for themselves. So we'll continue to call and be a part of any effort to push the Supreme Court to make a decision sooner rather than later on the merits.

And in some ways, this lack of clarity or the lack of consistency we're seeing among the state decisions, I hope, will compel the Supreme Court to make that merits-based decision sooner rather than later.

SANCHEZ: Jocelyn Benson, thank you so much for the time and perspective. We appreciate it.

BENSON: Thanks for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Still to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, dozens are dead after a massive air attack on Ukraine. Russia's largest bombardment since the war started. Ahead, how this could impact talks on Ukraine aid now at an impasse on Capitol Hill.

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KEILAR: Also, it's being described as one of the most frustrating conversations between President Biden and Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. We have new details on the sticking points in this contentious call.

And Congresswoman Lauren Boebert says she will run in a different Colorado district in 2024, quite far away from the one she currently represents. We'll speak with the challenger who was looking to unseat her. We'll have that ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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SANCHEZ: Today, Ukraine is calling for an urgent U.N. Security Council meeting following Russia's biggest air attack on the country since the start of the invasion, dozens of people are dead, more than a hundred are injured after Russia targeted multiple regions across Ukraine. This video is from the eastern city of Dnipro showing heavy damage to a maternity hospital after a missile strike. Officials say that several expected mothers and newborn babies were lucky and unhurt after fleeing to the bomb shelter before the building was hit.

Let's discuss now with Michael Boclurkiw. He's a former spokesperson for the Organization for Security in Europe. Michael, thank you so much for being with us. Help us put into perspective the scale and significance and the timing of this most recent attack.

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MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, FORMER SPOKESMAN, ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY IN EUROPE: Sure. Good to be with you, Boris.

Well that's a heck of a lot of muscle. Ukrainian armed forces are saying about 158 drones and missiles were sent including hypersonic ones and they managed to shoot down 114. We have not seen such a big barrage since about - of November of last year when 70 or so were sent at once Ukraine's way.

Look as for timing it's hard to say, hard to get into the twisted mind of Mr. Putin but part of me believes that this was payback for Ukraine's missile or drone attack on a quite a big ship in the Russian Black Sea naval fleet and that has resulted in Ukraine over the past few months destroying about 20 percent of that fleet. The Russians might have also been targeting a critical infrastructure but they hit other targets instead or this could be a harbinger or precursor to other attacks, ground defenses on Ukraine. One more thing Boris which is absolutely mind boggling when you think about it is that one of the Russian missiles according to the Polish military spent about three minutes or 24 miles in Polish airspace.

Now this is not the first time that's happened but that is the longest time I believe a missile has lingered, it entered Polish airspace and then it entered back into Ukraine. NATO's response to that is we are going to remain vigilant. But look, it was either a malfunction or incompetence on the Russian part or the Russians are probing testing NATO defenses and that, of course, will be of interest to Xi of - President Xi of China who is looking carefully how the United States will respond to a possible invasion of Taiwan.

SANCHEZ: Yes. A range of possibilities when it comes to why that missile went into Polish NATO airspace. I'm wondering if you think. That kind of act might spur sentiment among lawmakers in the United States who are hesitant to provide Ukraine with more aid the kind of aid that's been proposed by the White House.

BOCIURKIW: Sure. Well, we have 61 billion on the line from the United States and another 50 billion or so in Europe. And maybe that is the silver lining to all of this is that it will wake up those legislators to approve that funding, the last 250 million authorized by the White House to spend for Ukraine that just been sent so there's nothing left. And the Ukrainians are saying if nothing comes, they will have a very difficult time. So hopefully when they come back from their break they are approved that 61 billion.

And Boris, I have to be very blunt with you on this one. I fall on the side of the lecture of CNN's Nick Paton Walsh who said, if one or both of those funding packages do not come through, Russia will occupy all of Ukraine within two years. That's what we're possibly looking at right now.

SANCHEZ: Well, that would be a potentially devastating outcome for Eastern Europe, no doubt. I'm wondering, from the Kremlin's perspective, not that the outcome isn't already predetermined, but how much does it impact the situation in Ukraine that Vladimir Putin has this re-election coming up? How do the domestic politics of Russia play into what we're seeing in the battlefield?

BOCIURKIW: Well, I think in terms of Russian domestic politics, he's going to slide back into another term, probably a life term. But I think what Mr. Putin is doing is keeping a very close eye on what's happening in the United States, not only, Boris, in terms of the funding that's supposed to come through, but I think he's also trying to run down the clock until the elections in the United States, hoping that Mr. Trump or MAGA Republican will get in, and then a quick deal could be made that will not be in Ukraine's favor.

What the Ukrainians are now preparing to do in case of that eventuality that funding doesn't come through, they're, for example, tripling their domestic production of weapons. They're upgrading their drone technology and I think that's going to see more very surgical strikes on the Black Sea fleet way inside Russia to get as much of Russian military capability diminished.

Just quickly, I'll throw out a figure there, with pretty limited resources over the past almost two years, Ukraine has been able to denigrate about 50 percent of Russian conventional military capability. That's pretty impressive.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Michael Bociurkiw, we have to leave the conversation there. Appreciate your time.

BOCIURKIW: My pleasure.

SANCHEZ: Thanks.

KEILAR: And now to some new details on what is being described as a difficult and frustrating phone call between President Biden and Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. According to reporting from Axios, the strained conversation between the two leaders last weekend ended with Biden abruptly saying, "this conversation is over." It is the latest sign of growing tension between them as the Israel- Hamas war nears the three-month mark.

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I'm joined now by Barak Ravid, the Axios politics and foreign policy reporter who broke this story. He's also a CNN Political and Global Affairs Analyst.

Barak, thank you so much for being with us.

Tell us about this big sticking point here that caused so much of the frustration on this call for Biden.

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I think this frustration exploded over the issue of the withheld Palestinian tax revenues that Israel is not giving to the Palestinian Authority, but it's bigger than that. I think it was just the last straw.

And U.S. officials told me that this was from almost 20 phone calls Biden, Netanyahu had since the beginning of the war in Gaza. This was no doubt the most difficult and frustrating phone call. When Biden is basically after something like 30 minutes of talking about the war in Gaza, he switches to this issue of the Palestinian tax revenues and asking - Netanyahu - almost asking him for a favor. And Netanyahu more or less is telling him, no, I'm not going to do it.

And U.S. officials told me that Biden is going out on a limb on many, many things for Netanyahu and when Netanyahu needed to reciprocate, he basically wasn't willing to do it.

KEILAR: How do you see this? Is this a personal animus that is animating this current relationship and the way they're relating to each other or is this just about how Bibi feels about Israel and how the U.S. relates to Israel? RAVID: I'm not sure it's personal because Biden and Netanyahu they've known each other for more than 40 years. And more or less, they had a quite decent relationship. But I think that what Biden discovered, and he knew that, but he discovered that again, that when Netanyahu needs to choose between his own political survival and anything else, he chooses his own political survival and this was the case because Biden told Netanyahu - when Netanyahu told Biden, listen, I can't do this thing because of - I have pressure within my coalition.

So Biden told him, listen, I'm fending off pressure within the Democratic Party on the war in Gaza and on the support that I'm giving Israel, so you should be able to fend off pressure within your own coalition. And I think that Biden realized that Netanyahu is just not willing to do it.

KEILAR: What did they talk about when it came to the next phase of the war as Israel has obviously suffered a lot of criticism in U.S. for the way it's prosecuting it and for how many civilians have died in Gaza?

RAVID: So the call took place last Saturday when Israel was on the brink of expanding its ground operation into what's called the central camps. It's several refugee camps between Gaza City and Khan Younis. It's a very densely populated area.

And Biden wanted to know what's the plan. And Netanyahu told him more or less that it's not - Israel is not going to go into all the refugee camps, but just a very specific operation in one of the refugee camps where Israel had intelligence that Hamas had a command-and-control center. And this is what the IDF has been doing for the last, I think, two or three days.

KEILAR: Barak, thank you so much. Obviously, news of this call creating a lot of interest. We thank you for going through your reporting with us.

RAVID: Thank you.

KEILAR: Congresswoman Lauren Boebert will switch districts in her 2020 reelection bid in Colorado. So, again, we'll talk to the Democrat who was preparing to run against her.

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