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Trump's Legal Fights; Race to Save Victims in Japan; South Korean Leader Stabbed; Haley and DeSantis Battle in Iowa. Aired 9:30- 10a ET

Aired January 02, 2024 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:01]

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: And we know that both decisions are on hold until the courts in both cases can sort of get this resolved. In Maine, the state level courts could resolve this. The deadline for doing so is the end of this month. So, that process could play out quickly. But again, every -- the large expectation here is that the U.S. Supreme Court will ultimately have to be the one with the final say to determine, can states take Donald Trump off the ballot under the 14th Amendment, this insurrection ban, this Section 3 that's been cited by both of these cases.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It will be interesting to see what is inside their filings, what grounds they cite.

Zach Cohen, thank you very much.

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: All right, John, let's continue the conversation and bring in CNN's senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

Elie, always good to see you.

So, obviously, this all focuses on the 14th Amendment. So just sort of remind us of exactly what it says and what some of the key legal issues are going to be.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Rahel, they teach us in law school, always start with the text. So, let's look at the 14th Amendment, Section 3 tells us, "no person shall hold any office who shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

Seems sort of common sensical and straightforward. However, the problem is, the way this is being interpreted and applied across the states has varied tremendously. Let's take a quick look at the landscape here.

Seven states have, in some form or other, rejected these challenges to remove Donald Trump from the ballot. Some of them are still pending appeal, West Virginia and Arizona.

SOLOMON: Oregon.

HONIG: And Oregon as well. Then there are other states where challenges have been withdrawn or

are pending in various states that have not yet come to final fruition. But, of course, we have Colorado and Maine, where those challenges have been accepted for the time being. Those are also pending appeal. As Zach said, we're waiting on Trump.

The Colorado case will be appealed. The next step is the U.S. Supreme Court. The Maine case still hasn't gone through the Maine court system. That decision was by the state secretary of state. So, when Trump's team appeals this, they'll be appealing into the Maine court system.

But right here you can see just how much variety there's been in the way different states are interpreting and applying the 14th Amendment.

SOLOMON: It's a great point, Elie, because we talked a lot about Colorado and Maine.

HONIG: Yes.

SOLOMON: But great to see the map because it's been sort of all over the place between these different states.

HONIG: Yes.

SOLOMON: So, one, I mean, is it clear, is it all but certain that the Supreme Court is going to pick this up? And if so, when do they have to make their decision by?

HONIG: Yes, so the Supreme Court can take whatever they want. They don't have to take any particular case. I think it's very, very likely they'll take this case. We're talking about a constitutional issue. Major implications impact the way this voting and election is going to happen. And we just don't know. We need some guidance from the Supreme Court, but it's up to them.

In terms of when, part of the beauty of being in one of these black robes if you're on the Supreme Court, you don't have deadlines. And if you -- the parties do --

SOLOMON: Right. Right.

HONIG: But the Supreme Court itself can basically do what they want. I think once Donald Trump's team asks them to take the case, I think we'll hear at least a thumbs up, thumbs down, whether they're taking the case really quickly.

Let's assume they do take the case. What are the things they are going to be thinking about as we all sort of wonder what's the right decision here.

SOLOMON: So, let's assume for a moment they do take the case.

HONIG: Yes.

SOLOMON: What are the legal issues? What are the things that they're going be really sort of thinking about as we all sort of wonder, you know, what's the right decision here?

HONIG: Yes, there are a lot of legal issues swirling around this. Again, always worth noting, we don't know a lot of these answers, but let me try to break down the main questions into three categories.

First, who decides -- who decides whether there's been insurrection and who gets the power to do that? Now, the Constitution, the 14 Amendment, tells us Congress, U.S. Congress, shall have the power to enforce by appropriate legislation the provisions of this act. Donald Trump's team is going to say, that means Congress has to tell us how it works. And if they haven't done it, then everyone's out of luck. A challenger, however, will say, but the states can also do it.

Which leads us to the second question. If the states have the power, what process do they have to follow? How much due process does Donald Trump get? Now, you don't have to give anyone the full criminal level of due process, criminal trial, but Colorado gave him about a five-day mini trial with some live witnesses and some documents that would be admitted in court and some that probably wouldn't. Maine gave less due process. That was about a one-day hearing with no live first-hand fact witnesses. But Trump's going to argue, I wasn't given enough. And the states will say, no, this is adequate for this purpose.

And the third question, this is really lawyerly and technical, but does the president count as an, quote, officer of the United States? Of course, I think a normal person would go, how could it not?

SOLOMON: Right.

HONIG: The president is the most important officer.

There is a way to parse out the language, though, to argue that officer actually means something separate from the president. The Colorado judge at the trial level actually found that they're two different things. I think that's a long shot. I think the president is going to be held to the -- an officer of the United States. But if Trump wins on any of these points, he's going to win these cases. The challengers have to win on all of them.

SOLOMON: Oh, that's really interesting. I mean, but these are the questions that legal scholars, I mean, are sort of debating back and forth, which is why I think so many people would like the U.S. Supreme Court to weigh in.

HONIG: Right. Right. Phrased in plain English, yes.

SOLOMON: Yes. Preferably.

HONIG: That's what we try to do.

SOLOMON: Yes. Elie Honig, thank you.

HONIG: Thanks, Rahel. All right.

BERMAN: Well, it will be interesting of the court tries to do that. This just in, a man is now in police custody after allegedly breaking

into the Colorado supreme court building early this morning and holding a security guard at gunpoint. We're also hearing he fired shots inside.

[09:35:02]

No one was injured. The suspect later called 911 and voluntarily surrendered.

Now, this is the same building where the Colorado supreme court voted last month to disqualify Donald Trump from being on the primary ballot. But this is important, there is no reporting right now on whether this is related to the court case in any way. Again, no reporting right now that this break-in is related to the court case in any way.

We're going to get much more information on this throughout the morning. So, stay tuned for that.

The race to reach victims in the rubble of the Japan earthquake, we have new information just in on survivors.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOLOMON: Welcome back.

And now to the massive rescue effort underway in western Japan. The prime minister there says it is a battle against time to rescue people trapped under the rubble after that powerful and devastating 7.5 earthquake. Officials say the death toll is at 48 with many people injured.

[09:40:03]

The quake sparked deadly fires that destroyed homes and businesses. And this morning, tens of thousands of people are still without electricity.

CNN's Hanako Montgomery reports now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HANAKO MONTGOMERY, CNN: I'm speaking in a slightly quieter voice right now because we are at an emergency shelter where survivors of that very powerful earthquake on the western coast of Japan are taking shelter. There is no heating right now, so people are sleeping on mats. They're using thick blankets to stay warm. There's also no running water. So, the Japanese self-defense forces are just outside this building handing out water to locals.

Now, we know that in Ishikawa prefecture, which is very close to the epicenter, and which is where we are now, at least 48 people have died. The Japanese prime minister has also said that 120 people are still stuck underneath their homes. Now, the prime minister has said that they have dispatched as many

forces as possible to get to these survivors, to help them out from under their homes, but it's been a very difficult. A, because we're on a peninsula. There are only so many ways to get here. But also, B, but the main road leading into the peninsula has collapsed because of that very powerful earthquake.

Now, people here in the shelter have told us that they're still feeling a lot of aftershocks from that initial, very powerful earthquake. Even in this shelter alone some of the cement pillars have rubble around them just again from that very powerful quake and the shakes coming afterwards.

Hanako Montgomery, CNN, Toyama City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Our thanks to Hanako for that.

A horrifying attack in South Korea. Cameras capture the moment when the country's main opposition leader was stabbed in the neck following a press conference.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now, he survived the attack and is now recovering in the hospital following surgery.

CNN's Paula Hancocks watching this story for us.

Paula, what's the latest?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, Lee Jae-myung is recovering in intensive care, we're being told, at this point after he had vein reconstruction surgery. He was flown to Seoul from Busan, which is just on the south coast, for that emergency surgery.

And what we know happened, because it was captured, as you say, on camera, was Lee Jae-myung was touring a new airport that was being built in Busan on the south coast. And he was giving comments to reporters on camera. And at that point, an individual, police say a man in his 60s, stepped forward and asked for his autograph. He then lunged at him, attacked him with the knife and caused that damage to his neck. Lee Jae-myung then fell backwards, collapsed before the individual was wrestled to the ground and arrested.

Now, at this point, police say that they don't have a motive. They don't know exactly why he did this. But he is in custody and the investigation is ongoing.

Now, it was a braise attack. It was really in the middle of the day, in broad daylight. And coming just a few months before local elections here. So, of course, there are now concerns for high-profile individuals who are going to be out and about and being very visible ahead of those elections. There is very little security and protection around officials in South Korea because the crime rate usually is so low.

John.

BERMAN: Very scary to see something like that.

Paula Hancocks, keep us posted. Thank you so much.

SOLOMON: And still ahead, back here at home, less than two weeks to go. The clashing messages in Iowa as Donald Trump's challengers focus on each other instead of the frontrunner.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:47:47]

SOLOMON: Republican candidates are running full steam ahead to the Iowa caucuses and the rivalry between Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley is front is center. Super PACs supporting both candidates have released new attack ads just days before the first caucus votes are cast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ron DeSantis is lying because he's losing. DeSantis called China "Florida's most important trading partner."

Phony Ron DeSantis, too lame to lead, too weak to win.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nikki pretends to talk tough about China.

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But China's been a really great friend of ours.

I now officially work for you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can't trust tricky Nikki.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: All right. You may have noticed that neither ad mentioned the frontrunner in the race, Donald Trump. It's a recurring theme during this election cycle.

Let's bring in CNN's Steve Contorno, who is live for us in Des Moines.

So, Steve, I mean, what more do with know about the strategy here for Haley and DeSantis in these final days before Iowa?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Rahel, Iowans who tuned into the Iowa caucus -- or, excuse me, the Iowa Hawkeyes football game on Sunday would have seen plenty of ads attacking Nikki Haley from Ron DeSantis' super PACs and plenty of ads attacking Ron DeSantis from Haley's super PACs. But they wouldn't have seen any ads attacking the frontrunner in this race, as you mentioned. And that is because these candidates exit 2023 having failed to solidify themselves as the alternative to Donald Trump. And so now they are focused on pushing out each other and making themselves -- making this a two-person race going into the caucuses in New Hampshire and all these early nominating states.

For DeSantis the focus has been on Iowa. His campaign has put a lot of time, effort and energy into this state. Anything less than a close second place finish will be very difficult for him to continue this campaign and make a case for himself going into these other nominating contests.

For Haley, however, she is more focused on New Hampshire. That is where she is today and will be spending the next couple days going into our town hall on Thursday. Her allies have been trying to convince Chris Christie to exit the race because he has been focusing so much time there as well. And now some Christie supporters have also made some cases that maybe it's time to turn to Haley as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM BOUCHER, FORMER CHRIS CHRISTIE NH STEERING COMMITTEE MEMBER: I was a Christie supporter up until recently.

[09:50:03]

I love Chris Christie. He did a great job in his campaign. But Nikki Haley is the way to beat Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONTORNO: Rahel, we also saw Chris Sununu, the governor of the state, make a case that perhaps it is time for Chris Christie to bow out of New Hampshire. He, of course, is supporting Nikki Haley. He has been a strong advocate for her since he endorsed her. And now he is suggesting that it's time to coalesce around her.

SOLOMON: Yes, I think he said something to the effect of, his campaign has reached a dead end.

A lot to watch. We'll soon find out.

Steve Contorno, live for us in Des Moines.

Steve, thank you.

BERMAN: All right, with us now, Margaret Talev, senior contributor at "Axios," and Tia Mitchell, Washington correspondent for "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution."

And, Margaret, Rahel said something -- and I would never disagree with Rahel because she's always right, but she said it's full steam ahead for the candidates in Iowa. Is it -- is it really full steam ahead of they're not going to talk about Donald Trump, who's ahead by many, many points in all the polls?

MARGARET TALEV, CNN SENIOR CONTRIBUTOR, "AXIOS": I mean it's like the $24,000, elephant in the room, strategic question that it has been since the beginning of, you know, the primary contest. And it wasn't that long ago in -- after 2016 that other Republicans looked at what happened in the Republican primary and said, well, everyone learned from that. But, you know, in some ways they really didn't. It because such a parallel of the 2016 race.

And so now we've got, you know, this contest, Iowa is two weeks away, believe it or not, New Hampshire is three weeks away, and you're looking at a scenario where this time next week you could have Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis in a face-off on a debate stage without Donald Trump and without any of their rivals going after each other, while Trump maintains a, I don't know, 40, 50, whatever the polls say this week, point edge in Iowa.

So, yes, they're -- it's full steam ahead, except for nobody wants to go after the person who's actually standing in their way because they're afraid it will turn off too much of the base.

BERMAN: By the way, that debate stage will be a CNN debate stage, a CNN debate, where it does appears as if the qualifiers will be Donald Trump, Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis. Trump doesn't show, so it would be Haley and DeSantis.

Town halls on Thursday for both Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley.

Tia, what are you looking for now? I mean what do we have left to learn before the Iowa caucuses?

TIA MITHCELL, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, "ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION": So, before the Iowa caucuses I think what we have left to learn is if there's any shift in messaging from Ron DeSantis or Nikki Haley. You know, Nikki Haley's coming off a little bit of the rough holiday break. So, what does she focus on?

Of course, we do have left to learn if Chris Christie, if this mounting pressure does cause him to bow out. I don't expect that to happen before New Hampshire but it could happen.

But, to me, the big lesson that we're looking for is what happens on Iowa caucus day. And that question is, if Trump, at the end of the day, is the frontrunner, but by how much. Because, again, if he doesn't get above 50 percent, I think those Republicans who want an alternative for Trump will say, hey, guys, look, if we actually get down to one Trump alternative, we might be able to do this in New Hampshire.

BERMAN: Yes, it --

MITCHELL: But that 50 percent threshold will be very telling.

BERMAN: I hear what you're saying there, Tia. And to that point, Margaret, maybe Donald Trump's main opponent now isn't Ron DeSantis or Nikki Haley, it's expectations.

TALEV: Yes, it's his only opponent, John, is expectations. And I suppose, you know, the court system. But, yes, and does it really, I mean, even does that really matter? Like, those expectations would really have to be blown through. New Hampshire is a bit of an outlier of a state in terms of who can engage, who does engage, what that electorate or primary electorate looks like. And so you've got Trump standing pretty strong -- very strong now in Iowa by all polling, pretty strong in New Hampshire, too, by the way, and extremely strong in South Carolina.

So, you know, when that's you path out of the gate, yes, if you're Nikki Haley you have a lot that you can feel good about minus the slavery gaffe last week, you know, surging from behind in the ranks to probably becoming the strongest challenger, but by dozens of points gaps in these states. So, I don't know. I mean, obviously, we'll all be watching very closely to see what happens, but it's --

BERMAN: Yes.

TALEV: It is fundamentally hard to understand how you overtake the leader if you won't take the leader on. And that's what all these Republican rivals have been contending with.

BERMAN: Tia, quickly, do you think that there's any chance that someone like Ron DeSantis would pull his punches because he wants to have a political future after Iowa and New Hampshire?

[09:55:07]

MITCHELL: I mean you can argue everyone but Chris Christie has been pulling punches all along at certain junctures. I think both Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis have indicated that they're open to a political future, quite frankly, with Trump if he's the nominee. So, I -- I think that's part of the calculus of everyone not named Chris Christie.

BERMAN: All right, Tia Mitchell, Margaret Talev, thank you so much for being here. And a reminder, this will be interesting to see how they handle this. Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley will take questions directly from Iowa voters in back-to-back CNN town hall events. Kaitlan Collins and Erin Burnett, they're going to moderate live Thursday night. This all starts at 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

SOLOMON: All right, a lot to look forward to there.

Meantime, up next for us, the pilot of a Japanese coast guard plane is in critical condition and his five crew members are dead. That's after a fiery crash on a Tokyo runway. Coming up, what we know about the passenger jet that slammed into them.

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