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Israel Rejects Genocide Accusation At The Hague; Judges Face Increasing Swatting Calls As Political Season Ramps Up; Credit Card Delinquencies Surpass Pre-Pandemic Levels. Aired 2:30-3p ET
Aired January 12, 2024 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[14:32:52]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: The unprecedented genocide case against Israel is now in the hands of the judges at the International Court of Justice at the Hague.
Today, during a three-hour rebuttal, Israel vehemently denying the genocide accusation, saying the claim presented a grossly distorted story.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Remember, South Africa is accusing Israel's leadership of intending to destroy Palestinians in Gaza. It wants the United Nations highest court to order the country to suspend military operations against Hamas.
In the final day of the hearing, Israel defended its actions, saying its evacuation orders are proof that it is trying to keep Palestinians from being harmed. It argued that Israel has a right to protect its people.
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TAL BECKER, LAWYER FOR ISRAEL: It is respectfully submitted that the application and request should be dismissed for what they are, a liable.
Designed to deny Israel the right to defend itself, according to the law, from the unprecedented terrorist onslaught that it continues to face and to free the 136 hostages Hamas still holds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Let's discuss now with David Scheffer. He's a former U.S. ambassador-at-large for War Crimes Issues during the Clinton administration.
David, thank you so much for being with us.
What did you make of that rebuttal today from Israel?
DAVID SCHEFFER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR-AT-LARGE FOR WAR CRIMES ISSUES: Well, it was a very powerful one. They had three main points. One that South Africa is ignoring the fact that there is a war between
Israel and Hamas. That means combat. That means Israel has a right to self-defense and to use military force in that context.
And it's not just attacking Gaza for the sake of, as South Africa would claim, committing genocide against the Palestinian people. It is actually engaged in warfare.
Secondly, they stressed that, even in the context of warfare, they're taking every possible step to protect civilians by giving them evacuation orders, which should be temporary evacuation orders under international law, of course. And a lot of other notification and places to go, obviously, in Gaza.
[14:35:03]
And third, Israel is deeply engaged in the humanitarian assistance effort.
All of those can be contested in one way or another but I think the one that cannot be very credibly contested is the fact that it is a war.
I think the weakness in the South African application, which was pointed out today, is it is oblivious to that context, that Israel is actually engaged in a combat situation with an enemy that uses human shields and has no respect for the law of war.
It is in that context that a lot of civilians are actually being killed.
KEILAR: And Hamas is not subject to this court, right? You have to keep that in mind.
We have heard, and to your point, about the issue of aid getting in. Israel making the case it is very involved in it. We know there is not enough a getting there.
And a former ICC prosecutor had said it is hard to make that case about the bombing. But when it comes to what many sees as a blockade of goods, water, fuel or food getting into Gaza, it is really hard to make a case against that.
Could you see anything change?
SCHEFFER: Well, there are a lot of issues to confront Israel within terms of how it is conducting the war, day-by-day, strike-by-strike, munition-by-munition. There is a lot to talk about with Israel.
But I think what Israel is trying to say today is, yes, let's talk about the issue of war crimes. Even talk about the issue of crimes against humanity.
But if you want to talk about genocide, you are way off base. Because that requires the specific intent to destroy all or part of the Palestinians. They are saying that the evidence simply doesn't show that. It does
not go there.
And I might add, Brianna, that Hamas actually is subject to all of this. They are citizens of the state of Palestine. The state of Palestine is a state party of the Genocide Convention.
Even before the International Criminal Court, as nationals of Palestine, when they confronted Israelis on October 7th and committed to truth, including, probably, genocide on October 7th, the ICC has jurisdiction over Hamas for those crimes.
SANCHEZ: David, when do you expect a decision by the court? This kind of process could take years, right?
SCHEFFER: I think you will get probably a decision on what was at stake today and yesterday, which is the provisional measures, like an injunction, where the court will decide whether it tells Israel to do something or anything. And we can go down that checklist.
In terms of the merits of the case, the South African charge that Israel is actually committing genocide against the Palestinians, we could wait two to three years for that particular judgment.
I might just add, one of the little kickers here is that South Africa, yes, has brought Israel to court under the Genocide Convention on the charge of genocide.
But neither South Africa nor any other country has yet done what it could do, which is to bring the state of Palestine to the International Court of Justice under the Genocide Convention for committing genocide on October 7th.
And that is one of Israel's main -- not that specific issue but that is what they're confronting is the double standard that relates to, what are the obligations of Hamas as citizens of Palestine under the Genocide Convention?
SANCHEZ: David Scheffer, we will have to leave the conversation there. We appreciate your perspective.
SCHEFFER: Thank you.
[14:39:05]
SANCHEZ: Still to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, police say the judge who presided over Donald Trump's civil fraud trial has now also become a swatting victim. We will look at the spike in these dangerous pranks when we come back.
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SANCHEZ: The politics of the moment, as we have been discussing, are extremely divided right now. We are seeing a surge of threats and hoaxes across the nation that has led to people like judges and politicians fearing for their safety. We are talking about swatting. Just yesterday police responded to the home of Judge Arthur Engoron
over a bomb threat. He, of course, is overseeing Trump's civil fraud case in New York.
KEILAR: The judge presiding over a Trump criminal case, Judge Tanya Chutkan, has also been the target of swatting and death threats over the last few weeks.
The latest incidents come as rhetoric surrounding this intense election season is exposing the nation's growing political divide.
Here to talk about this, we have CNN correspondent, Rene Marsh, who has been covering this story.
SANCHEZ: Rene, why are we seeing this rise?
RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, as you said, the political environment, extremely divisive, very intense.
And I spent time this week speaking to high-level political figures who have been swatted, as well as law enforcement officials tasked with protecting them.
It is clear that they all are very worried that, as we get deeper into this political cycle, it's only going to get worse.
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DAVE YOST, (R) OHIO ATTORNEY GENERAL: They claimed that I had shot my wife.
MARSH (voice-over): Ohio's Attorney General Dave Yost --
LT. GOV. BURT JONES, (R-GEORGIA): They had shot their spouse and that they had somebody else tied up.
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MARSH: -- and Georgia Lieutenant Governor Burt Jones, both police say targets of a dangerous trend on the rise called swatting.
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MARSH: It's a hoax where the caller makes a panicked false report to 9-1-1 about a violent crime in progress at their target's home, triggering a large police response with armed officers.
Like the one Georgia State Senator Clint Dixon experienced when he says he was swatted on Christmas Day.
STATE SEN. CLINT DIXON, (R-GEORGIA): I went to the front door and open the door and answered the door and was met by six officers that were carrying A.R.s.
MARSH: Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene says she was targeted the same day. The police report says the caller told an emergency dispatcher he shot his girlfriend, and Greene's home was the scene of the crime.
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: The intent is to harass the individual who's a subject of the swatting call.
But there are serious consequences potentially. Officers responding very quickly to the scene, thinking that there's some major crime in progress, it puts the person who is the subject of the swatting at risk.
MARSH: In a divisive and toxic political environment, both Republican and Democratic political figures seem to be increasingly the targets. Many of them viewed by Trump supporters as political opponents.
(SIREN)
MARSH: This Sunday, D.C. police responded to a 9-1-1 call for a shooting at the home of the federal judge in Donald Trump's election interference case. The police report says, once units arrived, they realized the judge was not injured and there was no one in her home.
Last month, Jack Smith, the Justice Department special counsel overseeing two federal cases against Donald Trump, was swatted, a law enforcement source tells CNN.
So was Maine secretary of state after she ruled Trump ineligible to appear on the state's ballot.
And just hours before Thursday's closing arguments, a bomb threat at the home of the judge presiding over Trump's civil trial.
MERRICK GARLAND, ATTORNEY GENERAL: These threats of violence are unacceptable. They threaten the fabric of our democracy.
MARSH: In May, the FBI set up a database to track swatting cases for the first time. Since then, the agency says it has received more than 500 reports.
But finding the perpetrators who often mask their caller ID data can be difficult. And that's why political figures who have fallen victim to the crime are urging Congress to act.
DIXON: If there was, you know, a federal law on the books, giving that this person is calling from another state that, you know, you'd have that jurisdiction and, hopefully, be able to apprehend those folks more effectively.
MARSH: As elections draw near, states are doing what Congress has not. Last year, Ohio passed a law making swatting a felony, and Georgia has drafted similar legislation.
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MARSH: And you know, it's not just these high-profile political figures falling victim to swatting. It is religious institutions, government buildings, schools, election workers and members of the military. So it's certainly something law enforcement is concerned about. And
they stress, it is not a prank. And in one case in Kansas, it actually ended with a death of an individual. So it can turn deadly.
KEILAR: You can see how it is poised to do that. Very serious.
Rene, thank you so much for that piece. We really appreciate it.
Still ahead, the economy booming. Of course, not everyone is enjoying it. Ahead, why more Americans are struggling with the burden of credit card debt. And why economists see this as a warning sign, ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.
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KEILAR: More Americans buckling under the weight of mounting credit card debt. There is a new report showing credit card delinquencies have surpassed pre-pandemic levels.
SANCHEZ: And these rising delinquencies are coming at a time when debt is especially painfully expensive. Interest rates, don't forget, are the highest they have ever been in two decades.
CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich joins us now.
Vanessa, what is behind the delinquencies?
VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is concerning, but not altogether surprising, because we know consumers have been spending very robustly and they have been putting that spending on credit cards.
But in the third quarter of last year, credit card delinquencies rose. That is people who cannot make payments over 30 days, 60 days, and 90 days. And that is now surpassing pre-pandemic levels.
It is also approaching a record number of Americans who are not able to pay their credit card bills, since the Philadelphia Fed started tracking this data in 2012.
And as you mentioned, credit card debt in general is breaking records. You see about $5 trillion in consumer credit card debt. And a lot of that recently has been driven by a really robust consumer spending.
For example, in the month of November, analysts expected that Americans would put about $9 billion in spending on credit cards. Look at that number. It was actually closer to $24 billion. That is about two and a half times what analysts had expected.
And, Brianna and Boris, this doesn't even encompass something called Buy Now, Pay Later. When you are shopping online, you can decide to pay for your items in a couple of installments.
Something called -- it's Buy Now, Pay Later, essentially, but it's phantom debt. Because people don't know exactly how much Americans are using this payment system.
And it is also not really tracked and it is not really regulated the same way in which credit cards are.
So, consumer experts are really concerned about mounting debt for Americans, but also really concerned that we don't actually know how much Americans are in debt.
[14:55:04]
You know, it is a lesson for Americans to try to spend what they have, but you know, people have been feeling really good, despite high inflation. And spending, but guys, it's just going on credit cards at the end of the day.
SANCHEZ: That is a serious concern.
Vanessa Yurkevich, thank you so much.
Still ahead, the Middle East on edge after the U.S. and U.K. carry out multiple airstrikes on Iran-backed Houthi targets in Yemen overnight. We are digging into concerns that this could widen the conflict in the region, when we come back.
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KEILAR: A new phase of military activity in the Middle East has leaders across the globe on edge once again. Last night, the United States and Britain hitting dozens of Houthi military targets in Yemen. That is the Iran --
