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Carroll to Testify in Defamation Trial; Trump in Court for Defamation Trial; Maine Decision on Trump's Appeal; Campaigns in New Hampshire Ahead of Primary; Candidates Address Racism. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired January 17, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:56]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Any moment now Donald Trump will be back in a federal court as the woman who has won a sexual abuse civil suit against him is about to take the stand.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: New Hampshire, oh, New Hampshire. A state where dreams run free and candidates run scared. The new moves Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley are pulling to try to extend their campaigns.

BOLDUAN: An Ohio woman is demanding an investigation because she says a mistaken police raid injured her little boy.

I'm Kate Bolduan, with John Berman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Very soon E. Jean Carroll will face the man she says unleashed his followers on her after she said he sexually assaulted her. Carroll will be testifying today as Donald Trump is sitting in the courtroom and also Donald Trump then will be also sitting before a jury who are tasked with determining how much money, if any, he will have to pay in damages.

The former president just left Trump Tower minutes ago heading to the courthouse. His team is signaling that he could also testify sometime this week. TBD. We will see on that.

During opening statements yesterday, Carroll's attorneys said that Trump used the "world's biggest microphone" -- also some of the world's biggest letters right there - to attack, humiliate and destroy her reputation and continues to do so. The attorney said that Donald Trump is still posting about Carroll on social media, even as the trial started yesterday. But Trump's lawyer quickly reminded the jury this case is only about two statements Trump made in 2019.

CNN's Kara Scannell following all of this for us from the federal court in New York.

Kara, what are we expecting to happen today?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, today, E. Jean Carroll will take the stand and she will be squaring off in court with Donald Trump sitting there listening to her testimony. Now, the judge made clear, this case is not going to be a do-over of the sexual abuse and rape that occurred in 1996, but Carroll is going to be able to tell her story and say what happened to her after Trump made the statements in 2019 denying that he raped her, saying she wasn't his type and that she made up the allegations to sell her book.

So, we expect Carroll will testify about how she was scared, how Trump's followers, as her lawyer put it, latched on to his message and then bombarded her with hate filled emails, mean tweets and threats that she says has caused her to sleep with a gun beside her bed. So, Carroll is expected to set the scene today of what the impact of those statements were, those kinds of messages that she received.

Now, she will be, you know, as they say, on the witness stand telling her story to the jury. But while Donald Trump will be at the defense table facing her in the courtroom. So that will clearly lead to some extra dynamics that we did not see last year, adding to the intensity of the moment.

And then Trump's lawyers will have the opportunity to cross-examine Carroll. Their defense in this case is made clear yesterday is that Carroll wasn't harmed. They're going to argue that her career actually prospered as a result of the notoriety and fame that she received from making these allegations against the former president. And they're trying to distance Trump from his followers, saying that he shouldn't be held responsible for the mean tweets, as they put it, that she had received.

But clearly going to be a fairly tense moment today, potentially an emotional moment in this courtroom playing out with Donald Trump facing E. Jean Carroll as she tells her story. The fear she says she has faced and the first time, you know, this week that they are seeing each other in decades, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Kara Scannell, outside the court, as it's all about to begin as we speak.

Thank you so much, Kara.

John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now, CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid, and CNN's senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

Well - and, Elie, let me just read what the judge told the parties yesterday to set the stage here for the -- told a jury too. "For the purposes of this trial, it has been determined already that Mr. Trump did sexually assault Ms. Carroll, that he knew when he made the statements about Ms. Carroll that the statements were false, that he made them with reckless disregard to whether they were true or false."

[09:05:15]

It has already been determined. That's the legal backdrop to this. There's a campaign backdrop to this, Paula. But if you can, I just want you to speak to the - the moment for E. Jean Carroll. She's taking the stand today with the man that she says sexually assaulted her sitting feet away. PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and I want to

note that the judge there, he's summarizing the findings of a trial that occurred last spring. A trial that former President Trump did not participate in at all. That's why he's says, look, that verdict carries over because the defamatory statements in that case, very similar to what you're dealing with here, and that's why they're just focused on damages.

But I think you're absolutely right, let's talk about this moment for E. Jean Carroll because she testified back in the spring but Trump wasn't in the courtroom. And here, months later, after a jury found that he sexually abused her, she is going to talk about the impact that all of this has had on her life, on her career. And he is going to be just a few feet away.

Yesterday was the first time they had been together in the same room in decades. Now, for any survivor of sexual abuse, sexual assault, this is incredibly stressful, emotional for some. I've seen in other cases it can be cathartic. But this is a really significant moment and something we haven't seen so far, even though this case already went to trial in the spring.

BERMAN: And, Elie Honig, let continue this discussion, Elie. I think you're here.

Elie, she will be cross-examined by Donald Trump's attorneys. How do you think they will approach this with E. Jean Carroll?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, John, so, Donald Trump's attorneys made clear yesterday that they are not going to step gingerly around her. They're going to go right at her. They're going to try to undercut her claim of damages.

And important to keep in mind, today is all about damages. How much, in what amount, has E. Jean Carroll suffered financially. And Donald Trump's team is going to argue that not only did she not suffer economically, but she actually benefited. Now, this is a pretty audacious defense. It could backfire. It could offend the jury. Keep in mind, the jury is just nine regular New York civilians. But they're going to go at her. And I think on the cross-examination you're going to see them putting her TV appearances in front of her, her book deal in front of her, and arguing this has raised her profile. If anything, you've profited economically and financially and therefore there are no damages. And, ultimately, it's a tough question and the jury is going to weigh that.

BERMAN: Where could those attorneys go that would get them in trouble with the judge, Elie?

HONIG: So anywhere outside the boundaries of damages. The judge here, Lewis Kaplan, a federal judge I appeared in front of many, many times, likes to run a very tight ship. He is in control of his courtroom. And as Paula said, the judge made clear, we are not relitigating the issue of whether Donald Trump sexually assaulted E. Jean Carroll. The prior jury last year already found that and it carries over. We are not relitigating the question of whether Donald Trump's statements about E. Jean Carroll were defamatory. That too was decided by the jury. We are only focused on damages here. And I think what the judge is going to do is shut down immediately any line of questioning or any line of testimony that goes outside of those very narrow bounds.

BERMAN: When we talk about narrow boundaries, Paula, it gets to the issue of whether Donald Trump will testify. His attorneys and Donald Trump keep saying that they plan to or he may later on here. What are we expecting?

REID: Look, it's hard to really say if he will because in any other case you'd say really he doesn't have much to offer here. This is about damages. What he could speak to is extremely narrow. Not clear it's really going to help his case.

But as we've seen just a few days ago in the civil case in New York, did he avail himself of the opportunity to address the court and he completely ignored all of the guidelines that the judge had set out. Instead sort of speaking to the larger, political message, which is that he is a victim of a rigged system. So, will he testify? Well, that's going to be up to him and his lawyers to balance, you know, do we want to have potentially a trial loss here, right, antagonize the judge, maybe not make a great impression in front of the jury, to getting across our political message. He has done that in the past.

Let's see how things go over the next few days because it's possible, but again legally there doesn't seem to be a lot of need. A lot of risk, little reward. But the way he calculates the political and legal risks here, very different than really anyone else on the planet.

BERMAN: Puala Reid, Elie Honig, thanks to both of you. Don't go far as this trial is just getting underway today. E. Jean Carroll to take the stand shortly. Thank you.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right. Much more to come on that.

It's also deadline day in Maine in Trump's fight to keep his name on the state's presidential ballot. A decision from the state superior court could drop any time now. So, will they side with Donald Trump or with Maine's secretary of state, who said that Trump is ineligible to be on the ballot because of the 14th Amendment's insurrectionist ban.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is following this one for us. She's joining us now.

Katelyn, what could happen today?

[09:10:01]

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Kate, we are going to hear at least from a judge in Maine today because that's when the deadline is for the courts to weigh in. So, previously, there was a decision at the state level - at the state administrative level that Donald Trump should not be on the ballot there. And this is the process now where the courts get to review that, Donald Trump gets to challenge it.

Now, of course, a lot of this is on hold because there's the Supreme Court going to be weighing in, the U.S. Supreme Court going to be weighing in related to Maine and Colorado. But as we are waiting for the U.S. Supreme Court to act, things do get to have more procedures in the states, like in Maine, where the superior court will make a determination if Trump can be on the ballot there. And then there are other courts in Maine that can do that as well. An appeals court too.

Separately, there are boards this week in other states that are meeting, including in Illinois this morning where there is a board that's going to be kicking off a process to look at a challenge to Donald Trump on the ballot. There's also going to be a meeting that's a little bit similar to that in Massachusetts happening tomorrow. And so all of these states are going to be figuring out what to do. But all eyes should really be on February 8th, which is when the U.S. Supreme Court hears oral arguments. And we're going to get more of an inkling of what the nine justices on that court are thinking and how much they believe the U.S. Supreme Court should or could make a determination about what the individual states do. If states like Maine and Colorado can indeed decide to keep Trump off their primary ballots.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Katelyn, thank you so much for that.

John.

BERMAN: All right, new reporting from New Hampshire on what Nikki Haley plans to try and pull off what would be a major upset in the granite state.

And a big meeting at the White House shortly. The president and key congressional leaders. Aid to Ukraine hanging in the balance.

And body camera video released of police using flash bangs during a home raid with a baby on a ventilator inside the house.

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[09:16:19]

BERMAN: New reporting on where things stand in New Hampshire this morning, besides cold and tax free. All three leading Republican candidates have events there today. And for Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis, so much of what they are doing today is about trying to make sure there is a political tomorrow after the primary next Tuesday.

CNN's Omar Jimenez joins us from Hampton Beach in coastal New Hampshire this morning.

What are you doing there, Omar? It's not a beach day.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look, I wanted to - I just wanted to be on a beach. And this wasn't really what I had in mind. But, you know, look, a beach is a beach. Find your beach.

Look, at the end of the day, the paradise that all these candidates are looking for is winning this actual state. We're less than seven days out to the primary here in New Hampshire. As you mentioned, all of these candidates have events throughout the day. But really for Haley and DeSantis, it's trying to cut into what's essentially been Trump dominance up to this point.

Now, when you look at the polls, Nikki Haley has the best chance in this state to at least pose a serious challenge to the former president. A lot of moderates in this state, also undeclared, or independent voters as they're known here, can vote in this as well. And she's polled very well with that demographic. Even - even further - or even better than the former president, particularly with moderate Republicans.

But this is still a very steep hill to climb. And even with polls showing her within single digits of the former president, no poll has showed her ahead of the former president.

That said, Nikki Haley has been a little bit of a controversy. But really over the fact of how she responded to whether America has had racism in the past and whether it is a racist country.

Just take a listen to some of her comments, but also DeSantis' as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're not a racist country, Brian. We've never been a racist country. Our goal is to make sure that today is better than yesterday.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, the U.S. is not a racist country. And we've overcome things in our history. You know, I think the founding fathers, they established a set of principles that are universal. Now, they may not have been universally applied at the time, but I think they understood what they were doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMINEZ: Now, the Nikki Haley campaign doubled down on some of those comments saying that, yes, Americans had problems with racism in the past but that America is not a racist country. Her allies have doubled down on that, including Larry Hogan. And their campaign is calling it a non-issue. But also, let's be clear here, whether it's slavery or segregation, there were periods where literally racism was written into the fundamentals of this country.

Now, whether that matters to the people that are actually heading to the polls in a few day, we're just going to have to see if that has any sort of impact at all. But regardless, this is the environment we're in, in the final stretch, where every marginal thing could change the mind of a particular, potentially valuable voter here in this state. And when you look at someone like former President Trump, he has been attacking Nikki Haley a little bit more and leading some to believe that it's because he sees her as a legitimate threat here, which would pair up with what Nikki Haley has been framing things as, which is essentially a two person race.

But, of course, anything can happen.

John.

BERMAN: Omar Jimenez, on Hampton Beach. It would be awesome if one of the candidates showed up for a polar plunge there later today. Ron DeSantis polar plunge at Hampton Beach, covered by Omar Jimenez, in the waves.

Thank you so much, Omar. Stay warm.

JIMENEZ: I can't wait.

BOLDUAN: Or not. That's not - that's not -- did you use the word awesome? Because that would not be awesome.

BERMAN: It's a New Hampshire word, wicked awesome.

BOLDUAN: No. No. I'm still taking heat from what you said about New Hampshire yesterday when I was sitting in New Hampshire, for the record.

Joining us now for more on this, CNN's senior political analyst and anchor John Avlon, and Spectrum News political anchor and CNN political commentator Errol Louis.

[09:20:06]

Also the host of the "You Decide" podcast.

Let's start with what Omar was ending with right there.

Errol, what do you think of the statement and the cleanup from Nikki Haley and also what you heard from Ron DeSantis? What does it say about where these campaigns are?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, but what it says about the campaigns is that they're a part of a long tradition, an unfortunate tradition, of using evasion and euphemism and, frankly, imaginary facts to try and make a certain kind of American feel OK but a really ugly past that they would rather not confront head-on or even mention if they can get away with it.

So, you have this odd sort of side talk. It runs contrary, frankly, to Nikki Haley's own family history. Her father is a Ph.D. in biology and could only find a job at a place called Voorhees College in South Carolina, an historically black college. The only place where they would hire him. His -- her mother was trained in law in India, but ended up starting a closing shop in South Carolina because other professional opportunities were not available to her.

So, you know, look, they - they're going to do what they think they have to do to try and get votes. In this national kind of digital campaign era, when the rest of us are watching, it can sound really odd if you're not from the south when people go into this kind of -- almost a second language to try and step around really delicate issues that they would rather not face.

BOLDUAN: Yes, I was looking back, John, at (INAUDIBLE) I was look (INAUDIBLE) I remember Tim (INAUDIBLE) in his brief presidential bid -

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST AND ANCHOR: Yes.

BOLDUAN: He spoke really eloquently about race. At one point even campaigning in New Hampshire talking to WMUR in July. He had said, "I do not think our nation is racist," but then goes on to say, but our nation - but we can't - "we should also not whitewash the history of our nation. Our nation's history is provocative and painful on the issue of race. But our progress is palpable."

Is this a problem for any of them in the primary? Do you see that at all as this moves forward and we're racing now into the primary next week?

AVLON: That's right. Look, I think this is the downstream effect of the politicization of history, of the ideological imposition on history where folks on the left sometimes overstate our national sins to the exclusion of our successes, and folks on the right try to pretend there was no original sin of slavery and that race isn't still a fundamental Faultline in American politics, which it is. I think Tim Scott was eloquent and hit all the bases in that statement. I think Nikki Haley represents that tortured balance and dance that she has had to do in South Carolina being a candidate of extraordinary change in terms of the South Carolina Republican Party, as Tim Scott was.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

AVLON: But I do think, a, she misspoke. I don't think it was her intention to say we were never in history. The context makes it clear. And I do think that if you look at the - the way that other candidates in this race have attacked American history from some of DeSantis' positions in Florida to Donald Trump's repeated misappropriation and assault on history, what's clear is that, a, we need civic education in this country badly. We need to get smarter about our history. We also need to focus -- remember that elections are about the future and we should be talking about the implications for the future for these very different candidates, not just sort of these tripwires that have synoptic echoes in this election.

BOLDUAN: So, one person who's saying that we need to stop looking at the past and look toward the future in terms of on the campaign is Nikki Haley. That is her message now as she has hit the ground in New Hampshire. And in terms of looking in the past, she's tying Joe Biden and Donald Trump together in terms of the looking back which -- with her message as we've heard starting really right at the end of Iowa, at the beginning of New Hampshire - this last week to New Hampshire yesterday. What do these candidates need to do in these - in these days, this less than a week now before New Hampshire voters go to the polls? AVLON: They need to make a general election message frankly that

appeals to independents and moderates, right? New Hampshire is a more representative slice of the electorate from the Iowa caucus, which was 3.5 percent of the total population turned out. Here you've got independents who are the deciders in general elections. You've got moderates, who Nikki Haley won 63 percent of in Iowa. So, this is actually a better test of a general election candidate. But it all depends on turnout. And here's where, you know, independent need to really step up and realize they've got a civic responsibility for the country here, because otherwise the far right will hijack this process and sort of perpetuate an unrepresentative choice, I think, for a lot of folks by renominating Donald Trump.

But this is testing time for Nikki Haley and her vision of the Republican Party. If this doesn't succeed in New Hampshire, that sort of Reagan tradition of the Republican Party is toast.

BOLDUAN: It seems that that is one big test, not just for Nikki Haley, but for that entire kind of like that part of the Republican Party is really being tested with this New Hampshire primary for sure.

AVLON: One hundred percent.

BOLDUAN: Errol, Ron DeSantis is fighting to survive now.

[09:25:00]

ABC has canceled the debate that was supposed to be held this week. Yes, this week. After Nikki Haley basically said that it's not worth - it's not worth debating DeSantis anymore.

And then you have this comment from Donald Trump while in New Hampshire. Let me play this for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ron desanctimonious (ph), did he go down like a rock. I don't even want to talk about him because I don't want to waste it. I do want to talk about Nikki because this perception that she's gone up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Not being talked about. Essentially also said another way is starting to be ignored. Is that worse than being the focus of negative attacks?

LOUIS: Well, sure. I mean, look, Ron DeSantis is on a one-way trip back to Tallahassee. That's been clear for a while now. He's dropped in the polls like a stone. The millions that he spent and the theory that he had about how he was going to win Iowa and then turn everything around, it just didn't play out the way that the had hoped. There's no sin in that. There's no shame in that. But, you know, let's try and find a state that he could actually win now. It's not going to be New Hampshire, where he's polling third or worse. It's not going to be Nevada, which is pretty much rigged in favor of Donald Trump. It's definitely not going to be South Carolina. So, where do you see Ron DeSantis getting back into play? It's just not going to happen. And that dismissive comment from the former president really just makes that clear.

BOLDUAN: A lot of questions that will soon be answered.

It's good to see you, Errol. Thank you so much.

John, thank you.

John.

BERMAN: All right, a big White House meeting in just a few hours. President Biden and congressional leaders. Is this the last chance for new aid to Ukraine?

Also we're just getting breaking news out of London where Kate Middleton, princess of Wales, is in the hospital after undergone abdominal surgery. She could be in the hospital for up to two weeks.

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