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Judge Threatens to Kick Trump Out of Court in E. Jean Carroll Case. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired January 17, 2024 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:08]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Donald Trump is back in federal court, as the woman who won a sexual abuse case against him takes the witness stand. E. Jean Carroll says that Trump -- quote -- "shattered" her reputation. This comes as we're learning the former president is reacting physically and verbally to Carroll's testimony. We're getting new details from inside the courtroom.

And hitting Nikki Haley with her birth name, an odd attack by the former president, echoing racist dog whistles he's used against other opponents in the past, with a critical New Hampshire primary and a big step toward the Republican nomination just days away.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Plus, the standoff intensifies between the federal government and Texas over a strip of land along the Mexican border. Now one group is calling for people across the country to help stop the -- quote -- "invasion."

We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: Thanks so much for joining us this afternoon. I'm Boris Sanchez, alongside Brianna Keilar, in the nation's capital.

And, right now, the woman accusing Donald Trump of sexual abuse and defamation is testifying in front of the former president's face.

E. Jean Carroll has offered dramatic testimony in federal court today, saying -- quote -- "I'm here because I was assaulted by Donald Trump. And when I wrote about it, he said it never happened. He lied and he shattered my reputation."

A jury in a previous civil trial agreed, finding Trump liable for sexually abusing and defaming Carroll.

KEILAR: That trial concerned comments that Trump made after he was president. This trial concerns things that he said about her while he was president.

And the first verdict carries over. So, this isn't a question of whether Trump defamed Carroll a second time. It's really just a question of whether he will have to pay damages and how much for that additional instance.

CNN's Kara Scannell is outside of the courthouse for us.

Kara, what else has Carroll said in her testimony?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so E. Jean Carroll has been on the stand since about 10:15 this morning recounting what had happened to her after Donald Trump made those statements that the other jury found to be defamatory, saying that she wasn't his type, that the rape never happened, and that she made it up to sell her book.

And it was when Carroll testified about this having shattered her reputation, we saw the first real physical reaction from former President Trump. He is sitting at the defense table just two long tables away from Carroll in the witness box. And he shook his head from side to side, suggesting he was saying, no, no.

I mean, for most of this time, he has been whispering to his lawyer, leaning over, passing notes. I did notice him gazing over at the jury at one point. But, mostly, he seems to be focused straight ahead and reacting in real time to things that Carroll is saying to his attorney.

Now, what Carroll did testify after she said her reputation was shattered, she then talked about what happened afterwards. And that included text messages. It included Facebook messages, tweets and other communications from people, where she said it was information that they were saying to her insults like she was too ugly to go on living, but also physical threats that she said really terrified her.

And one of these encounters, she said, was just after she went public. She was in a hotel room in New York. It was 11:30 at night and there was no curtain on the window. She said she decided -- she looked on Twitter. She saw a bunch of mean tweets about her calling her a liar. And then she checked her E. Jean Carroll...

(HORN HONKING)

SCANNELL: ... mailbox.

And she said then that she saw a death threat. And she said that -- she didn't describe it, but she said, in her reaction: "I read it, and I ducked. I thought I was going to get shot."

She said she didn't sleep that night because of the fear racing and pulsing through her body when she started to get what became one of hundreds of messages that were threatening violence. She said she also received messages or people saying that they hoped that she was raped after her allegations were public that Donald Trump had in fact raped her in the mid-1990s.

Now, she also described the certain steps that she took to try to beef up her security. So, she said she got a pit bull. She said she bought bullets for a gun she inherited from her father, and she keeps it next to her bedside.

[13:05:01] Now, she is going to continue testifying, and we expect that the court is going to break for lunch soon. And then, in the afternoon, Trump's attorney will get a chance to cross-examine her. It is unclear if the president will stay for the duration of court today. We know he's expected to go to New Hampshire, but there will be many more hours of E. Jean Carroll testifying on the stand and being cross-examined by Trump's attorney -- Boris, Brianna.

SANCHEZ: Kara Scannell live outside the courthouse for us in New York, thanks so much.

Let's discuss now with defense attorney Misty Marris.

Misty, great to see you. Thanks for being with us this afternoon.

As Carroll laid out the testimony from E. Jean Carroll here, we know that, at different points, the judge noticed that the former president was making remarks to his defense team, apparently at one point during E. Jean Carroll's testimony, saying loud enough for people in the room to hear -- quote -- "It's not true."

The judge reprimanding Trump for that. What do you make first of the testimony and then Trump's remarks in court?

MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE AND TRIAL ATTORNEY: Yes, so this is twofold.

So, as far as Trump's remarks in court, remember, the prior trial involving E. Jean Carroll, where he was found liable and the damages were $5 million, he did not attend. So this is the first time that he is actually in the room watching her testimony.

And this violates the rules of decorum of the court to have these -- what's being reported as these overt reactions to the testimony. But, in this particular case, liability is not an issue. And, therefore, this is really all about damages. And so anything relating to the liability component is not going to be brought into the courtroom.

So the judge rightfully said, you can confer with your attorneys, that's your right, but you have to maintain a level and demeanor, where the jury is not going to be impacted, because that could ultimately result in something prejudicial to the jury.

Now, as far as the testimony, E. Jean Carroll is going through all of the aspects of her life that changed after these defamatory comments remained. This -- these relate to 2019 comments. And the factors that are going to be looked at from a damages perspective are the nature and severity of the defamatory statements, emotional distress.

That's where we hear about these horrific tweets and e-mails that she received that caused her distress. She's testifying to that, and also loss of business opportunity. And so that's really going to be the focus of her testimony. And, as predicted, it's going to be emotional as she reads through some of the comments that came upon after these defamatory statements.

KEILAR: Misty, you mentioned he can't prejudice the jury. He can make an impression them. He's there. He doesn't even have to be there. This is voluntary.

Does it work in his favor, potentially, that he is there in the courtroom?

MARRIS: Well, it at least shows that he's taking the case seriously, to that extent.

And we have heard that he has -- he might testify. We don't know if he will. The judge has put some parameters on what he can testify about. So, whether or not that impacts his decision to take the stand, we will have to see.

However, I do think it was a mistake -- and I said this back when we were covering the original trial -- to not attend. It's such serious subject matter. And, optically, it looks like he's not taking the case seriously at all. So now he's here.

However, making comments in the galley at the defense table while the other party is testifying is inappropriate and could ultimately be prejudicial. So I'm not surprised that the judge intervened on that front.

KEILAR: Yes. Very interesting. We will see how it affects things.

Misty Marris, thank you so much for being with us.

MARRIS: Thank you.

KEILAR: And with the New Hampshire primary less than a week away, things are just moving so quickly now.

Former President Trump is ramping up the vitriol against his rival Nikki Haley.

SANCHEZ: Yes, he mocked her by comparing her to Hillary Clinton and then echoed racist smears that he used against others like former President Barack Obama.

CNN's Kristen Holmes and Jeff Zeleny are both in New Hampshire following the Trump and Haley campaigns.

Kristen, let's start with you.

Walk us through these new attacks by Donald Trump.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris, it's very clear that Donald Trump views New Hampshire as a two-person race, and that's why he is ramping up his attacks on Nikki Haley.

And, as you said, part of this is using well-worn tactics, racist dog whistles that we have seen him use before. So I will put up one social media post he wrote. You can see here that he is attacking her using her birth name.

Now, this comes after he amplified a false narrative on social media that she couldn't be president because she was born to Indian immigrants who were not U.S. citizens at the time of her birth. To be very clear, she was born in South Carolina and she is a U.S. citizen.

[13:10:00]

This might seem familiar, because this is the exact same tactics that he used on Barack Obama. He would always emphasize President Barack Obama's middle name, Hussein. And he was also the primary backer or conspiracy theorist on the birther theory that President Obama couldn't be president because he wasn't born in the United States.

Now, it's not just these attacks that we are seeing. We are also seeing the former president talking about Nikki Haley. Last night, he accused her of trying to get Democrats and independents to infiltrate the GOP primary. Again, just a fact-check here, only Republicans and independents can vote in the GOP primary.

And the deadline for changing your party affiliation was on October 6, so nobody is changing their party affiliation at this time.

KEILAR: All right, Kristen, thank you so much for that.

To you, Jeff, now. How is Haley responding to these ramped-up attacks by Trump?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, Brianna, in one respect, it's a matter of flattery, because she knows that she is his leading rival, at least here in New Hampshire.

Has not responded specifically to the item by item by item that Kristen was just laying out there. But, look, they are very well aware of the fact that they know the entire kitchen sink is likely to be thrown at them by the time next Tuesday rolls around, the New Hampshire primary.

But, for her part, when she had a rally here last evening in New Hampshire, she was pointing out some of her same argument, really amplifying that argument, that she believes it's time to move beyond former President Donald Trump, and she's lumping him in with President Biden.

In fact, she's running television ads here, saying it's time to move beyond the Trump-Biden nightmare, so clearly trying to make the case to those moderate voters and undeclared voters that Kristen was talking about that she is hoping that they will help her win the Republican primary.

She will be holding an event this evening in Rochester, New Hampshire. She's doing some private events this afternoon. She's not campaigning as aggressively, stop by stop by, stop barnstorming the town, but more strategically. But I'm sure we will hear a response from her this evening.

As for the Hillary Clinton mocking, it's very interesting, because that similar ad was used in the Iowa caucus campaign by the Ron DeSantis super PAC, saying that she was simply a replay or being morphed into Hillary Clinton. Her team actually believes that helped her in Iowa because it sent the message to perhaps some moderates about her foreign policy and other things.

So, in New Hampshire, that's a very interesting technique, because Hillary Clinton, of course, actually beat Donald Trump here back in the 2016 general election. So, certainly, there are vast differences between Hillary Clinton and Nikki Haley, Brianna.

Of course, you would know that, as we covered Hillary Clinton together. But for an independent audience, moderates, that might not be the worst comparison, at least in this race -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, very interesting point there.

Jeff Zeleny, great to see you out there on the trail.

Time is almost up, as the Department of Homeland Security demands the state of Texas take down those barricades that have been blocking the Border Patrol's access around Shelby Park.

SANCHEZ: Plus, hours ahead of a big meeting with President Biden, Speaker Mike Johnson is getting in earful from his own conference.

What his House Republican colleagues are saying -- when we come back.

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SANCHEZ: So, we have got some breaking news just into CNN, an update from the courtroom, where the judge overseeing E. Jean Carroll's defamation case against Donald Trump has threatened to kick the former president out of the room based on his behavior.

This is just coming from our team inside the courtroom. Judge Lewis Kaplan warned President Trump previously against disruptions in court. As E. Jean Carroll was testifying about her sexual assault, about the damage that it caused her reputation, Trump was heard in the courtroom repeatedly saying things like "It's not true," also saying, "This is a total con job."

In response, Judge Kaplan stopped the proceedings and warned the former president he would kick him out.

KEILAR: That's right.

Her lawyer was complaining to the judge about hearing him say these things. And the judge said -- quote -- "Mr. Trump has the right to be present here. That right can be forfeited. And it can be forfeited if he is disruptive, which what has been reported to me consists of. And if he disregards court orders, Mr. Trump, I hope I don't have to consider excluding you from the trial."

Trump then, according to our observers there, threw his hands up in response. The judge said: "I understand you're probably eager for me to do that."

And it's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing what Trump replied.

SANCHEZ: Yes, the reply from Trump, apparently, to the judge threatening him to kick him out of the room, Trump saying -- quote -- "I would love it."

The judge in response saying: "I know you would. You just can't control yourself in this circumstance, apparently."

The parties then left the courtroom for lunch.

KEILAR: That's right.

Let's bring back in Misty Marris to talk a little bit about this.

This is drama playing out very much in the courtroom. They have taken a break for lunch. Maybe cooler heads will prevail afterward. Maybe they won't. What do you think of this pretty extraordinary moment in court?

MARRIS: You know what? I thought the judge before had done the light kind of tap on the wrist, fall short of just an admonishment, as we discussed before. That's reacting in that over-the-top way is just far from decorum in the courtroom, and the judge controls the courtroom and has the ability to do what he needs to have the trial go smoothly and so the jury isn't prejudiced.

But this took it to the next level. The reporting, the excellent reporting indicates that you could hear saying -- Trump saying, "This is a witch-hunt," and that's obviously audible to the jury.

So the antics continue here. What we have seen a lot with these cases with Trump is, the courthouse steps seems to be where everything explodes and where we hear a lot of this inflammatory speak. Now we're hearing it in the courtroom from the defense table, so no surprise.

[13:20:10]

Just full disclosure, I have been before Judge Kaplan many, many, many times. No nonsense in that courtroom. So, not surprised to see, take a break, everybody go to lunch, and guess what? If this conduct continues, you're out of here.

I think that will be the next step, if it continues down this path.

SANCHEZ: Misty, we have seen former President Trump get hit with gag orders before. Could you see one being placed on the former president here? Could it go beyond just him getting kicked out of the courtroom if he continues these kinds of characterizations of E. Jean Carroll?

MARRIS: It absolutely could.

However, because -- that First Amendment right, we have seen the gag orders, and they're generally limited to the types of statements that would be potentially harmful or threatening to those in the courtroom. There could be something narrow like that. It wouldn't be a blanket gag order. I don't believe that would be the case. But there certainly could be some limitations outside the courtroom as well, depending on how this continues. Look, it seems that his lawyers are not able to control him. And I want to make a point, because I have heard -- of course, we're not the courtroom. I wish we were to actually see this all unfold.

But I did hear in the reporting that the judge said, "If this continues, I'm going to kick you out," and Trump said, "I love it," or "I would love it."

And I'm wondering, because we have seen this before with especially the civil cases, just in the civil fraud trial that we were covering a week or two ago. Is this setting up some sort of appellate-type argument? Kicking out of the courtroom. He has a right to be there. Is this going to -- is this part of a broader strategy as far as how these are going to be attacked after the trial?

The damages portion is concluded, and then it's on appeal. I don't know, but I do think that was a bit telling with that statement now on the record with the judge,so something to think about as this case continues.

KEILAR: Yes, putting down some markers there.

Misty, if you could stand by for us, I want to bring Kara Scannell back into this conversation.

Kara, was the jury present for the entirety of this incident? I mean, it sounds like, clearly, if they were -- if it was audible enough, they could have heard the part where he's saying it is a witch-hunt, it really is a con job. Did the judge dismiss the jury before he admonished Trump, or did they witness this?

SCANNELL: Oh, no, the jury was out of the courtroom when the judge had this interaction.

And this is actually the second time that Carroll's attorney had raised concerns today before the judge that Trump was saying things that were audible to them.

I'm sitting two rows behind Trump, but he's facing forward. So I just see him speaking to his attorney, but none of us can hear what he is saying, because he's facing forward. But Carroll's lawyer is sitting in front of him, and she said that she could hear what he was saying, things such as: "Witch-hunt. It really is a con job."

And she raised earlier to the judge that she thought some of these statements could potentially be heard by the jury. The judge didn't take any kind of corrective action. She brought it up again at the break for lunch once the jury had been excused and brought it up to the judge.

And so then the judge had an exchange with Trump in which he said that Trump has the right to be present here. That right can be forfeited and it can be forfeited if he is disruptive, which what has been reported to me consists of. "And if he disregards court orders, Mr. Trump, I hope I don't have to consider excluding you from the trial."

And at that point, Trump threw his hands up at the air, appeared to say something, but no one could really make out what it was that he said. And the judge said: "I understand you're probably eager for me to do that."

And he said: "I know you would."

So, at that point, they broke for lunch and everyone had left the courtroom. It's not clear if Trump is coming back after the lunch break or if he's going to proceed to his building to give public remarks.

But that is where things were left today after E. Jean Carroll had been testifying on the stand for several hours, describing the statements that Trump had made that the other jury had already found to be defamatory, including threats to her life, people wishing that she would be raped, and saying how much it had scared her and threatened her physical safety.

So this was Trump. He'd reacted a lot during her testimony, but most of it just seemed to be making statements to his lawyer, which I saw repeatedly he was passing notes to his lawyer. He glanced over at the jury at one point, but we couldn't hear behind him any of the words that he was saying, but, clearly, Carroll's attorney saying that those words were audible to them sitting in front of him, and they were worried that the jury could also hear that.

SANCHEZ: And, Kara, we also want to point out, there was a different point earlier in the day where the judge had to reprimand Trump's attorney, Alina Habba, I believe on more than one occasion.

Walk us through what happened there.

[13:25:03]

SCANNELL: Yes, there has been tension since yesterday involving Trump's attorney, Alina Habba, and the judge.

Both yesterday and again this morning, she asked the judge if they could not have court on Thursday because Trump has his mother-in-law's funeral that day in Florida, and the judge has previously ruled on that before the trial started. Habba brought it up yesterday. She brought it up again today, saying she thought it was insanely unfair, and the judge saying, nothing is stopping Trump from attending his mother-in-law's funeral, and nothing is stopping him from coming to court.

It's ultimately Trump's choice. Habba had pressed it again, and the judge told her several times: "Sit down. I have already ruled. We're moving on. We're not arguing about this again."

And there have been several other times where she has objected and she started to argue in court, and the judge would cut her off. But he has also agreed with some of her objections and told Carroll to answer the question she was asked and not to just meander and give a story. So, it's not as though he had been leading against Trump's attorney,

but there has been a lot more sparring between them. And, certainly, with Trump there in the room, Trump having these reactions, which the judge is facing Trump. He can see what he is doing, and he can see his facial expressions better than us reporters who are sitting behind him.

So, this, though, is a judge, Judge Lewis Kaplan -- a lot of people say judges are no-nonsense. He truly is. He runs a very tight courtroom. And we will see what more he does about this if Trump does continue to attend the court hearings -- Boris, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, he's putting out some very clear boundaries there.

Kara Scannell, thank you so much from outside of court there in New York.

The judge there threatening to kick Trump out of court for commenting during testimony, testimony that Trump is attending voluntarily, but a very dramatic day there in court, as they have broken for lunch. So we will see what happens again this afternoon if this continues.

SANCHEZ: Yes, and really a surprising response from the former president -- maybe not really that surprising -- saying to the judge in response to that threat of kicking him out -- quote -- "I would love it."

All right, we're going to keep an eye on this story, and we will bring you the very latest when they get back in court.

Stay tuned to CNN NEWS CENTRAL. Back in just moments.

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