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Garland: Chaos & Confusion Defined Police Response At Uvalde; DOJ Probe: Police Response To Uvalde School "A Failure"; Carroll: My Status "Lowered" Since Suing Trump. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 18, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:11]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Right now, members of the Uvalde, Texas community, they are digesting these really stunning findings of a long-awaited Justice Department review into the police response to the 2022 shooting at Robb Elementary School. Nineteen children and two teachers killed, of course, in that shooting.

And the DOJ, in this 575-page report, explains how the law enforcement response was plagued by mistakes at just about every level. Here is just one example of how the confusion and chaos at the scene had deadly consequences.

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VANITA GUPTA, ASSOCIATE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Victims who had already passed away were taken to the hospital in ambulances, while children with bullet wounds were put on school buses without any medical attention. In the commotion, one adult victim was placed on a walkway, on the ground, outside to be attended to. She died there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: In just moments, we're going to get reaction from a father who lost his son in the Uvalde shooting. But first, we want to go to CNN's Evan Perez and Shimon Prokupecz.

Evan, you just sat down with Attorney General Merrick Garland who's visiting Uvalde. What did he share with you about his trip there?

EVAN PEREZ:, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, one of the things that emerges from this report and from the attorney general's visit is that he understands that everything that could go wrong went wrong that day. You had hundreds of officers standing outside for 77 minutes as these children and their teachers were trapped inside these classrooms with the shooter.

And I asked him about whether he understands the frustration from the families, the victims, for what happened here. Listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PEREZ: One of the things you - when you talk to the members of the family - the family members of the victims here, you hear a lot of frustration from what they see as a lack of accountability. And you've come in here, you've met with them, do you understand that frustration and what do you tell them when they ask for that?

MERRICK GARLAND, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Of course, I understand that. And, of course, I understand. It's almost unimaginable pain that they went through to think of the idea.

PEREZ: And that they continue to go through.

GARLAND: Of course. You think of a child shot and left in a classroom, a small classroom, with the shooter who's still shooting for more than an hour when law enforcement could have come in and rescued - and conducted a rescue, it's just not a pain that's ever going to go away. The question of accountability, what we did here was to try to make absolutely clear in an independent and honest investigation and report that sets out what everybody did. This is the basis for accountability.

PEREZ: Right.

GARLAND: The community now has the kind of report necessary to make sure accountability occurs.

PEREZ: This shooter was 18 years old. He waited until he was 18 to buy this firearm. He bought it legally. In your view, is that too young to be able to buy a firearm like this AR-15-style firearm?

GARLAND: Look, there's so much that we still need to do and the Congress needs to do. An 18 year old should not have a military grade weapon that belongs on a battlefield, not in a classroom.

[15:04:57]

Now, one thing that this tragedy actually did was lead to the first really important gun control legislation in decades, the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act that allowed us to stop more than 500 purchasers. Just since the passage of act by young people who were trying to get guns to which they were not entitled and to which were prohibited.

PEREZ: Is it your sense that there's something - that changes like that could stop something from this - like this from having (inaudible) ...

GARLAND: Well, I think the appropriate sets of changes could, and I think there is much more that Congress should be doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREZ: And Brianna, Boris, one of the things that we know because this is America and these things keep happening is that the lessons from this report possibly could be used by police departments around the country to respond to the next shooting. KEILAR: Yes. I mean, that is the hope, certainly.

And Evan, there's also a local probe underway there in Uvalde that really should be wrapping up soon. What's the interplay here? Could this DOJ review provide that local probe with any new angles to examine?

PEREZ: I think talking to Justice Department officials, I think they hope certainly that these findings help. The district attorney doing her investigation, it's still something that is ongoing. But really, the families are extremely frustrated because they have gotten so little information from the D.A. and that's one of the big open questions that remains to this day.

SANCHEZ: And Shimon, we heard from family members today as well and they welcomed the report, but they were understandably frustrated. Do we know what the outlook is for their next steps?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER: It's all about the D.A., right. You talk about the local probe, that's what they're waiting for. Now, the district attorney who's been dealing with this case now since the day it happened - look, she was there on the day of the shooting. She's been investigating this from the day this happened. And the big question for them is, well, what's taking so long. And they really feel that she's been just hanging this over them, holding them hostage in many ways over this investigation. And in many ways, honestly, terrorizing them over the fact that she's not released any information. She's been fighting the release of information that media has requested. There's a court battle going on that she's resisted.

And so they sort of feel like, well, we're not going to get any kind of accountability. And having the attorney general here stand before them and announce to the world that what happened here was so wrong and should have never happened and that kids perhaps could have survived if police would have done what they were supposed to do was very significant, because it justifies their feeling, right?

It's hard to believe that they would need justification to feel the way they feel, mistreated by the community, by law enforcement. But the attorney general did that. They say, okay, well, thank you for coming here because maybe the world now will know how we feel and that we are justified for feeling this way and that we have been mistreated. There is no justice for us. And people are telling us here, forget about this, just move on.

Well, we're almost two years and they haven't moved on and they will never move on. But they're still fighting for justice. They're still fighting for that transparency and there's a long road ahead for them because there's still - you have the DA investigation, there are still other police departments that are conducting their own probes.

And the big thing, Boris, here is that many of the officers who were involved in this, the rank and file, they're still on the streets here. The officers, those first officers that ran into the school and didn't take action, they're still patrolling the streets here. They want them fired and perhaps with this report now and the attorney general coming here, maybe that'll happen, but they're going to keep fighting.

I mean, this is an unbelievable group of parents that despite every obstacle from the community and other people, they keep fighting and they're doing it for their kids.

SANCHEZ: Yes, and one of the most emotional portions of the press conference was one of the grandparents of victims saying that those officers that you were speaking of that haven't seen accountability, some of them have gotten promotions, even raises after what happened at Uvalde.

Evan Perez, Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much for the update.

We want to have a conversation now with Brett Cross, his beloved son, 10-year-old Uzi Garcia Uzi was among the children killed.

Brett, thank you so much for being here and sharing your thoughts with us.

I just want to ask you about something you said when you were at the podium speaking to the press earlier today. You said that now that DOJ has stamped this report and given credence to these findings that this was a failure of law enforcement, you said, "Maybe they will take us seriously instead of telling us to move on."

[15:09:57]

I'm curious about who is telling you to move on and also how you feel this report helps to validate the experience and frustration that you've had.

BRETT CROSS, SON UZIYAH KILLED IN UVALDE SCHOOL SHOOTING: Yes, sir. So, I mean, that was directed to pretty much our community in and of itself. It's very divided. We've had people vote in officers who were there into elected positions because they just not listening to us.

And a lot of these findings in the DOJ we've known. But since the DOJ put it out there, put their seal on it, maybe these people start taking us seriously because we did - we do get told to move on and that Uvalde doesn't want to be known as the place with the mass shooting.

Well, too bad it is. It's the place where my son took his last breath.

SANCHEZ: Brett, you also mentioned that there is some hesitation in the community to address the law enforcement officers that were involved directly. You said, "They don't want to believe that the people that are supposed to protect us failed our children."

And you specifically mention seeing some of these officers at the grocery store. I'm wondering what your interactions with them have been like. If any of them have approached you, if they recognized you and try to offer some kind of explanation. CROSS: Yes. No, so one of the officers is a county commissioner and we go to the county commissioning meetings almost every other Monday. And we have to sit there and look at him in his face and all he tells us is wait till the report's out, wait till the report's out.

When we've seen that he just stood there, he got the phone call from the little - from the dispatch - from the little girl that was saying that I'm still alive, there's a shooter in here and he did absolutely nothing with it. And these people are elected into these positions.

SANCHEZ: I'm wondering how that makes you feel, Brett.

CROSS: Oh, angry. It's like these people are the same ones that if it happened to the rest of the community, they ought to know that these officers would have done the same thing and that it doesn't matter whose children it was, was because they weren't going to do what was right. They didn't do what was right that day. They haven't done what's right since. They don't step down and they show boat and boast and walk around town with their head held high, like they did nothing wrong. When the fact of the matter is, is that they did do wrong. They set outside while our children were screaming and bleeding out.

SANCHEZ: You have pushed for Christina Mitchell, the local district attorney to follow up and to prosecute those responsible for this failure. You believe that she's failed and refused to do her job. First, what exactly do you want her to do and why do you think she hasn't filed any charges or taken steps to be more transparent with you to this point?

CROSS: I mean, it all boils down to, one, she doesn't care. I mean, she kicked me out of our autopsy meeting. She has kicked me out of meetings that her team has set up and she just doesn't care. And she hates it when people speak out.

Well, my son is murdered. I'm not going to be quiet. And I feel like she also is under the thumb of Gov. Abbott, because as we all know, he has said, oh, it could have been worse. And then allowing Texas DPS to interview Texas DPS in their investigation, she has given no updates. And every time that she has said, oh, well, we'll have something done by this time, then as soon as that time approaches, it's another four or five months, then another four or five months.

She's honestly - I believe that she's just dragging it out. And if she ever does do anything with this and prosecute anyone, it'll be right before she is up for reelection.

SANCHEZ: Brett, you heard the attorney general who met with victims' families last night say that it's now up to local officials to potentially prosecute folks because the federal government can't really pursue federal charges. What's your message to the attorney general and more broadly, even to the White House on this?

CROSS: Why? Why are you not able to send somebody down here to make sure that they're doing it right, because as we've seen, nothing has been done right? From our city to our county to our state, nothing has been done right. We talked about it earlier. People just want us to move on and that's not going to happen. And if our D.A. is not going to do anything like she has not been doing, we need help.

[15:14:58]

SANCHEZ: You've also been outspoken on the need for changes that you would like to see beyond accountability in Uvalde. Walk us through what you think it'll take to prevent another tragedy like this one.

CROSS: Well, I mean, first, if we could either ban these assault weapons, there's no need why - it was brought up earlier that the - these officers were not scared of that 18 year old. They weren't afraid of him. They were afraid of the gun that he had and so that is an issue.

If our own officers won't go in and serve and protect like they're supposed to, then maybe we shouldn't have these military grade weapons on the streets. So that would be one thing to help prevent it. And also, Texas removed $211 million from our mental health situations, and why? And then they want to blame it on mental health. Like we need help here and our state isn't giving it to us.

SANCHEZ: Brett, I don't want to leave the conversation without talking about Uzi and his legacy. We're almost 20 months out from the shooting. This report is now out. How do you feel in retrospect about how people should remember your son?

CROSS: So he just needs to be remembered as the huge-hearted, loving, amazing kid that he was. He wanted to be a cop so that he could help people and that just goes to show you like he wanted to help people. And then he was failed by the same officers that he wanted to be like. And it's just - remember his smile, remember that that sparkle in his eyes, because if anyone was having a bad day, he did everything in his power to make sure that you smiled.

SANCHEZ: Brett Cross, obviously, our hearts are with you. We're so sorry about your son and we're grateful that you decided to share your story with us. Thanks for joining us.

Stay with CNN. We're back in just moments.

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[15:21:24]

KEILAR: Now to the federal civil trial against Donald Trump. As she wrapped up her testimony today, E. Jean Carroll told jurors her status had been "lowered" since suing Trump after he denied raping her. Last year, a jury found Trump had sexually abused and defamed Carroll when he refuted the attack. Now a jury is trying to figure out how much Trump should pay her in damages and Trump's attorneys questioned Carroll's motives.

Through cross-examination, she testified her salary was much lower in the year that she decided to write the book detailing Trump's attack compared to her peak days working for Elle in the 1990s.

CNN Correspondent Kara Scannell is outside of the federal courthouse in New York for us. Carroll's attorneys also presented a witness who had an actual dollar figure on the damage that Carroll has suffered, Kara.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna. So Carroll's team has called their reputational expert. This is the person who is testifying about the harm that was done to Carroll from Donald Trump's statements that the previous jury had already found to be defamatory and how much it would take to repair her reputation. So her calculation is the impact of Trump's two statements in June of 2019 that it would cost between $7.2 million and $12.1 million to repair Carroll's defamation.

Now, she said that does not include any potential punitive damages that the jury could consider or any emotional harm to Carroll. So setting out a baseline for what Carroll's team is hoping to recover. And as part of this lawsuit, when they initially filed it, they were seeking more than $10 million, so now they've got a number here giving them a top side of at least $12 million for just one of these areas that they're looking to recover on.

So that's the first kind of firm number we've heard in this case. And right now that this professor, she's a professor at Northwestern University. She testified for Carroll in the trial last year and she also was their damages expert in the defamation lawsuit brought by the plaintiffs against Rudy Giuliani, where he received that award of nearly $250 million.

She is now on cross-examination by Trump's lawyers and they're trying to suggest that her - the underlying data that's in her report did not take into account the impact of Carroll's own allegations against Trump in any shift in her reputation. So this questioning is still going underway. There's about an hour left in the courtroom today. We'll see if we finish with this witness.

Carroll's lawyers do intend to call at least one other witness and that is Carroll's former boss at Elle magazine, where she wrote her "Ask E. Jean Carroll" for nearly three decades. She is expected to testify.

And there's also the possibility that Carroll's team will play the Access Hollywood tape, where Trump is caught on a hot mic talking about his views toward women. And the judge said that he believed the jury could hear that because it could impact their views of Trump's mindset when he is accused of doing something to a woman. So he's allowed that to come in. We don't know when that's going to be played.

And the big question will be, does Donald Trump himself testify in this case? He says he wants to. He is not here today. He's attending his mother-in-law's funeral in Florida. And the judge said that since there's no courts on Friday, that he would allow Trump to come in on Monday and give his testimony then, if he does, in fact, choose to testify, Brianna?

KEILAR: We'll have to see if he makes good on that.

Kara Scannell, thank you for the report. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Let's expand the conversation now with CNN legal analyst and civil rights attorney, Areva Martin.

Areva, thank you so much for being with us this afternoon.

I'm curious to get your thoughts on the defense focus here on the idea that Carroll once had this lucrative career that fizzled out.

[15:25:07]

And then that's when she decided to write a book that included the Trump allegations, and that she's actually profited off of Trump denying the accusations that she's made about him. How does that play in court?

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that's a risky strategy, Boris, to be honest with you. I think it misses the boat here. The real issue here is the reputational damage that has been done to E. Jean Carroll. She has counted more than 26 times that Donald Trump called her a liar. And not only Donald Trump, the civilian, but Donald Trump, the president of the United States, one of the most powerful men in the world basically attacked her and she has testified, and there's evidence that after that attack, she received death threats.

She had serious reputational damage that was testified to by the expert today. So I think the overwhelming evidence in this case is in favor of E. Jean Carroll.

SANCHEZ: Now, her attorneys have played videos multiple times of the former president, not only disparaging her, but also they are potentially in line to play portions of that infamous Access Hollywood recording in which Trump is heard saying vulgar comments about grabbing women. Walk us through the strategy by E. Jean Carroll's team in that regard.

MARTIN: Yes, Boris, that tape is going to be very consequential. It's going to, I think, have a tremendous impact on this jury. What E. Jean Carroll's lawyers wants the jurors to know is that Donald Trump has the mindset of making these kinds of disparaging, very inflammatory, defamatory remarks about women, and that he knows that he's doing it and that he does it purposely, and he does it with malice.

A big part of this case is not just the compensatory damages, but it is the punitive damages. Damages that send a message to a defendant that your conduct will not be tolerated, and that you will pay a large monetary award if you continue in this conduct. So I think if jurors hear that tape, we know how inflammatory that tape is. It could cause this jury to rule in favor of E. Jean Carroll and to award her substantial damages beyond the $10 million that we've been talking about.

SANCHEZ: Areva Martin, we have to leave the conversation there. Appreciate your perspective as always.

MARTIN: Thank you, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Still ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, how Nikki Haley is responding to the recent attacks by Donald Trump ahead of tonight's CNN Town Hall.

And two nations now attacking each other across their shared border, how some unprecedented aggression between Pakistan and Iran is drumming up concerns here in Washington.

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