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Police: Megachurch Shooter Had History Of Mental Problems; Police: Shooter Opened Fire "Immediately" In Church Hall. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired February 12, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Disqualifies you from buying a firearm if you've been adjudicated a mental defective, as it's termed in the statute.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: I want to bring in John Miller, our Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst as well.

John, the officers up there were heaping praise on these two off-duty officers, one 28-year-old, one 38-year-old, who managed to take down the shooter. But they also noted that the - there was a security guard who let the shooter in. I'm wondering what you make of that and to what extent you see that as an early failure in this.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, this is the third largest church in the United States. While they have security presence, there wasn't security screening going on in between the services. So she walks in wearing a long gray trench coat. She has the rifle hidden under the trench coat. Churches are usually a kind of welcoming environment, come one, come all.

And when she gets to that hallway, she tries to enter a door that would go to the choir area, but that's locked. And at that point, she takes the gun out, opens fire, at some point yells, "I have a bomb." She has this backpack.

So these officers step forward and engage and that's when more than 40 rounds are fired back and forth in the middle of this hallway as people scatter for cover. It is amazing, if not a miracle, that more people weren't wounded in this. And whatever was planned for this incident, whatever her ultimate tactical plan was going in, it was interrupted by the presence of these two armed security people.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yes. I mean, John, to that point, Texas is unfortunately familiar with mass shootings at places of worship. They experienced the worst one in American history back in 2017 at Sutherland Springs, a Baptist church there. And I think it speaks to the difference, maybe some circumstances that were fortunate in this case. It was between services, as Andy mentioned. It was in this hall, because there were 26 people killed, 22 injured at Sutherland Springs where you also had an intervention by law enforcement.

And in this case, it's incredibly sad what we're talking about here, this young boy, seven years old, one person who was shot in the leg who's been released, the casualty is pretty low considering what they could have been, though, John.

MILLER: Well, that's right. And I mean, if you consider this attempt to open the door that leads to the choir area, you have to ask yourself, had she been there before, how many times had she done a pre-operational walkthrough, did she want to get to that choir space because it would have given her high ground and with two long weapons, perhaps a greater deal of lethality in terms of opening fire from a higher position, harder to hit from there.

We will probably never know that unless during the search warrant last night, when they get into the computers and go through the phones, they find more of a written version of the plan. But it's certainly some of the things they're thinking about, as well as what was having a backpack that purported - that was made to look as if she had a bomb, even though there were no explosives found in it, was that something that she could use to hold off people from opening fire. Whatever it was, the plan didn't go as planned, which probably is better.

MARQUARDT: All right. John, we're going to go back to that press conference in Houston. Let's listen in.

CHIEF TROY FINNER, HOUSTON POLICE: ... That they had around the church that day and all the days. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you talk, sir, about the relationship between the suspect and the seven year old fighting for their life.

FINNER: I'll let the investigators say a few words on it, but we do believe it's a relative and I think it's been confirmed that is the biological mother and if I'm correct on that - in that - yes, the biological mother, okay.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a question about ...

FINNER: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... the gun, the weapons might be also - special agent in charge. We understand that she had a previous criminal background that showed she had a misdemeanor charge for a weapon that was taken away from her.

FINNER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that the FBI also made question about a possible weapon she was going to purchase in 2023. How was she able to get a hold of these weapons?

FINNER: That's part of the investigation and the - he can speak to that if you want really quickly. But that's the challenges that we have and that's what law enforcement talk about all the time. We need to make sure everything is tight. We're not people standing up here against second of right amendments.

But people who are suffering from mental illness, criminals - criminals ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mental (inaudible) ...

FINNER: ... and - yes, so we're looking at that.

[15:05:05]

And if you want to add to it - you're okay if - yes, go ahead. Come on. Yes.

CHRISTOPHER HASSIG, HOUSTON HOMICIDE COMMANDER: Yes, I don't really have anything to add. I think it's - we're in the infancy stages of this.

FINNER: Right.

HASSIG: I completely understand. We want to know the motive, how she got the weapon, why she did this. We're not there yet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For procedural purposes than, if and when the FBI does make an inquiry about weapons that are going to try to be purchased by someone who has a mental health issue and a criminal background, what do you do with that information then afterwards?

HASSIG: So when that information comes through, the FBI will receive it and then we share that with our local partners, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chief?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got it.

FINNER: Yes, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it clear how much ammunition the suspect was carrying amongst those two rifles?

FINNER: I think we're still working through it, but can I say multiple rounds of ammunition, multiple rounds were fired. But just 24 hours into it, I don't want to give you a definitive answer. Multiple rounds and multiple rounds fired. Go ahead and we'll work our way to the back. Go ahead, Mario (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) ...

FINNER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... what the gentleman said in Spanish, you indicated Christopher (ph) - Christian Moreno (ph) is that the officer for HPD that returned fire?

FINNER: Yes. Christopher Moreno (ph). And we'll be sending that information out to you all. I don't want to speak for my TABC, but we'll get that out sometime pretty soon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just for clarity ...

FINNER: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... because we're dealing with multiple Morenos. Is there any relation here? I just want to make sure of that.

FINNER: No. No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay, got you.

FINNER: Neither we know of ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A quick question now, with regards to - I need a clarification (inaudible) ...

FINNER: One more and that's it, there's a lot of people in this room. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) ...

FINNER: Go ahead, Mario. Go ahead. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you for the transparency.

FINNER: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really appreciate it.

FINNER: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got it at 1:53 he arrives or she arrives - forgive me, she arrives at 1:53 ...

FINNER: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 2:07 declared dead by HPD, how long before there was gunfire engaged and how long did that gun exchange last?

HASSIG: The shooting began almost instantaneous upon her entering the building, which roughly 1:55, takes her a little over a minute to get in after talking with the security guard. The firing commences right after that. There's a few minute gun battle, for lack of a better term. They're exchanging gunfire and she is down.

And then our officers followed their tactical training. They linked up, they talked - talked about a game plan, approached the body, somebody else pulled the seven-year-old to safety. And so all of this transpired within a matter of less than 12 minutes.

FINNER: And we'll get a timeline a little bit later. Let me get you some more questions. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chief, why Lakewood Church? It's a long way from Conroe where she lived?

FINNER: I can't speculate for her. That's part of the investigation. But it could be any place of worship. And as I said earlier and I want us to kind of get this, it could be any location. Bad people or people - or individuals suffering from mental illness and with guns, we need to all look out for them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does the family member she was in a dispute with, though, did they attend services there?

FINNER: No, not at all. Go ahead and then we'll work our way back to you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) if there are (inaudible) resources for all the community who were there?

FINNER: Say that one more time. I'm very sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Espanol?

FINNER: Yes, you can do it. Yes, go ahead. Come up, Hector (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Si hay recursos disponibles para la comunidad que estuvo presente en (inaudible) ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bueno, afortunadamente, en esta ciudad tenemos muchas organizaciones que pueden darle ayuda a estos individuos que necesitan hablar con alguien ...

MARQUARDT: All right. Well, another piece of information there from the chief of police, Troy Finner, of the Houston Police Department, Andy, that this seven-year-old who was shot in the head and is fighting for his life was the child of Moreno. She was the biological mother.

We're going to go back to this press conference as they take questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) was there anything in those writings that stipulated a desire for acting out against specific people for those ...

FINNER: Part of the investigation, yes.

HASSIG: Nothing at this specific moment. We don't have anything that pops out. Again, we're reviewing all of those writings, but nothing that stands out at this time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commander ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chief, can you talk ...

FINNGER: No, no, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chief, can you talk ...

FINNER: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chief, can you (inaudible) this really quick ...

FINNER: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... about security measures at the church. You were told that - we heard that she may have tried to get into a classroom full of students?

FINNER: I'm not sure, that's part of the investigation. And I forgot to address this, last - yesterday, there was a question about a body- worn camera. Our officers were - did have body-worn cameras, so a part of this investigation is going through that, plus the security cameras. So I really don't want to speculate right now, but we will be transparent as more information comes in.

Over here on the corner and then we'll get to you, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, Chief.

FINNER: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A question for the commander, based on your preview of the information you just provided, what did she say? What did she - you guys have camera information, et cetera, et cetera.

[15:10:02]

What did the woman say to that security guard at all, if anything at all?

HASSIG: I mean, it's still under investigation. She displayed a weapon and we're going to re-interview the security guard, but she had a rifle and it was pointed at her, and she was unarmed.

FINNER: I'm going to get you two. Go ahead, and then we'll work our way over here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chief ...

FINNER: Did I leave anybody?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... is there any element to label this as a hate crime? We don't want to jump ahead of that. I think it's very important that we don't. As a society right now, we want to put - group different people for different reasons. I think that's really counterproductive to our healing process, to the way that we want to patrol and police our cities. So I just want us to simply wait on the facts.

You got mental illness here. You got a lot of things going on and so let us work that out, and I promise you, you know we're transparent here. We'll get it to you. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chief ...

FINNER: Thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... do you have any more explanations (inaudible) ... KEILAR: All right. Listening to authorities there in Houston about this shooting at Lakewood church - Baptist Church. Let's talk a little bit about what we learned from actually a question from a reporter there, Andy, which was - a reporter asked and authorities did not push back on this, that the shooter had a previous criminal background and had had a weapon somewhat recently taken away from her, and yet two weapons, right, only one of which she used in this, according to them, the AR-15. Having had as well this intervention where she was detained, I guess a hold, right? A mental health-related hold.

MCCABE: (Inaudible) ...

KEILAR: Explain how that normally would work for reporting someone to the background check system such that they would not be able to purchase a weapon.

MCCABE: Sure. So there's kind of three different things in your question there. The first is a criminal background. So if this shooter had ever been arrested for a criminal offense, that gets reported into the national database, and that would come up on the NICS check, the federal pre-purchase gun background check, so that's one.

The second is the detention. If she was, in fact, adjudicated to be detained against her will for mental health reasons, that also, if it was adjudicated, should go through the system and end up hitting on the background check at the same time. If this person had weapons taken away from them, like, for instance, because of the action of a red flag law or something like that, that wouldn't necessarily detain them or prevent them from purchasing weapons permanently would - during dependency of that red flag action.

But what we have here is a person who, from preliminary information, there seem to be several reasons that should have prevented her from legally purchasing a firearm. Now, we know there's many other ways to purchase or come in possession of firearms in this country without going through the federal background system. You can go to gun shows and buy guns without passing a background check. You can purchase weapons and deals between citizens one at a time, no background check required. So the system is very porous.

MARQUARDT: John Miller, short of a writing that the authorities uncover that says, I carried out this shooting or I plan to carry out this shooting because of reasons X, Y and Z, what more do they know - need to know to determine a motive? Because here we are, 24 hours since this shooting and there's a fair bit of detail here in terms of past anti-Semitic writings, past history with mental health issues, detention, this Palestine sticker on the rifle. What more are they looking for to be able to say this was the motive?

MILLER: Alex, I reviewed some of those writings as we've gone through the day today and was aware of that Palestine sticker on the gun butt. But the conundrum that authorities are facing here and I think our FBI colleague at the press conference hinted at that, is that you have the Palestine sticker, okay, does that make this a political terrorism crime? You have the anti-Semitic writings, does that make it a hate crime? But the complicating factor is you have a person who is going through a mental crisis that is somewhat long term, who talks about that in some of her writings and who has been the subject of an emergency psychiatric detainer. So we are in this netherworld of trying to attach rational thinking about motives to completely irrational acts, meaning she didn't go to a temple. She didn't go to a Jewish location where there would be a crowd. She went to a church. She brought her own child.

[15:15:02]

So a lot of this doesn't fit together because clearly we're dealing with someone who isn't thinking logically. And that makes it harder to not just figure out what the clear motive is, but even discern what the motive in her own mind was.

KEILAR: Yes.

MARQUARDT: Yes. The police chief there saying that the location could have been anywhere and referring again to her mental health issues.

John Miller, Andrew McCabe, thank you both for your thoughts and your expertise today. We need to leave it there.

Just in, a Georgia judge says that Fani Willis, the Fulton County District Attorney prosecuting Donald Trump, could be disqualified from the case. We'll tell you why.

And later, new details about Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin's medical condition. His doctors just said that he underwent a non-surgical procedure under general anesthesia. Those stories and much more coming up right here on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[15:20:08]

MARQUARDT: Let's turn now to the White House, where moments ago President Joe Biden greeted Jordan's King Abdullah II. The Arab leader is expected to press Biden on a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. But on the other side, Biden is facing a resistant Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. CNN has learned that Biden is growing more frustrated with Netanyahu and Israel's tactics in Gaza.

Netanyahu, for his part, is vowing to go after Hamas in their last refuge of Rafah in southern Gaza. But Rafah is also the last refuge for roughly a million - more than a million, Palestinian civilians. That's why the U.S., the U.K. as well as other allies are all urging Israel to scrap that planned offensive.

Now, it hasn't started yet, but Rafah was bombarded overnight heavily, Israel launching ground and air operations, which were part of a successful operation to free two hostages from Hamas captivity in Rafah. But in the process, dozens of Palestinians were reportedly killed.

Joining us now is Israeli government spokesman, Avi Hyman.

Avi, thank you so much for joining us.

Israeli forces pulled off a remarkable rescue of these two older men, getting them out of Rafah. Of course, everyone happy that they're home. We saw those scenes of joy earlier today. But at the same time, scores of Palestinian civilians were killed in that bombing of Rafah. So how does the Israeli government make that calculation? What amount of collateral damage is acceptable to rescue a hostage?

AVI HYMAN, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: Alex, thank you very much for having me on. My heart goes out to the people of Texas after the shooting today.

Let me say that the entire country, all of Israel, breathed a huge sigh of relief this morning at the news and the sights of those two elderly Israeli civilians that were being held in a civilian - in a regular civilian apartment block in Gaza by terrorists. We were very, very happy to see that sight.

I am not aware - I am aware that scores of terrorists were killed, scores of Hamas people were killed. I would caution you on using information coming out of Hamas, who always knee-jerk say that any deaths are civilian deaths.

MARQUARDT: Right. But you don't think that there were any civilians among the - around 100 or more than 100 who, according to the Palestinian Red Crescent, were killed?

HYMAN: Again, those numbers are coming out of Hamas. I cannot confirm those numbers at all. What I can tell you is that scores of terrorists were killed. I can tell you that it was a valiant mission where our special forces, a joint group of forces went into that civilian building and encountered fire from all directions, from buildings all around. There was a lot of terrorists trying to make sure that we didn't free those hostages.

But we needed to send a message to Hamas, we needed to send a message to Israel and to the entire world that we care about every last hostage. We said from day one that we will destroy Hamas and we will bring home every last hostage. I'll remind your viewers that there's still 134 Israelis being held by Hamas and that is a crime against humanity.

MARQUARDT: But Avi, the Prime Minister has asked for plans to get Palestinian civilians out of harm's way in Rafah. That is recognition of how incredibly densely populated that area is with displaced people, and yet the IDF carried out an extraordinary amount of bombing overnight. So back to my original question, how does the IDF make that calculation? How does the Israeli government make that calculation when clearly so many civilians are potentially in harm's way?

HYMAN: Alex, when the dust settles on this war and when the real numbers come through and the analysis is done, I'm confident, and this is already being said by military experts around the world, I'm confident that you will see that Israel has gone over and above any other army in history to avoid civilian casualties.

Now when we talk about Rafah and what will happen, again, we're not going in guns a-blazing. The Prime Minister has asked for a plan to be put forward to evacuate the civilians of Rafah. Our fight is not with the people of Gaza, it is with Hamas. We have taken out 18 out of 24 Hamas battalions. There are four more in Rafah.

If we don't go into Rafah, we lose the war, simple as that. It would be like saying to Winston Churchill, you know what, you're doing a good job ...

MARQUARDT: Right.

HYMAN: ... beating the Nazis, but would you just stay away from Stuttgart or Berlin, that's absurd. We need total victory and we will continue. We will destroy Hamas and the people (inaudible) ...

MARQUARDT: But as far as I know, Avi, how can you say that Israel has gone over and above to protect civilians?

[15:25:02]

We have reported in the past that areas where Israel has told Palestinian civilians to go to have then been bombarded. As far as I know, the issue - the order has not yet been - ordered - the order has not yet been issued for Gazans in Rafah to leave, and yet Israel is carrying out an extensive bombing, the like - which we saw last night, resulting, again, in the deaths of scores of Palestinians, possibly more than a hundred.

HYMAN: We have killed - we put out of action over 20,000 Hamas terrorists killed or injured, over 12,000 dead. We will continue on our mission to target Hamas. Again, you're telling me that there were civilians. I'm not aware of that. I saw - I've heard of a targeted mission and, again, I don't know of any other army that has gone to the extent to which Israel does of dropping leaflets, of making millions of phone calls. And we have a historic precedent from just a few months ago, when we moved the - we evacuated the north of Gaza and people moved down to the south. So I'm not sure what the question is here.

We've done it already and we'll do it again. We do not want to target civilians, and we will move them out of harm's way, while Hamas will do their utmost to keep them in harm's way, okay. So that is what will happen.

MARQUARDT: We have seen video of the aftermath, including dead children. I do want to ask you about something that Prime Minister Netanyahu said yesterday, saying that for every one Hamas terrorist killed, one Palestinian civilian was killed. And he was saying that that is quite a low ratio, and that is indeed lower than we've heard from - in the past from the IDF.\

Can you clarify how the Prime Minister got to that number?

HYMAN: The Prime Minister has all of the information at his fingertips. The Prime Minister has given that one-on-one ratio, which I challenge you to find in - with any other army in the world. Those calculations are made in the same way that any other army would make. And I don't know of any army that has achieved that.

Because ultimately, Israel, we love life, and Hamas loves death. We ran - those soldiers ran into that building, and they hugged our civilians, and they protected them with their bodies, while Hamas runs behind their own people ...

MARQUARDT: Right.

HYMAN: ... and uses their own people, their own civilians' bodies as human shields. We will continue to act in the most moral and targeted way.

MARQUARDT: But Avi, you may say Hamas loves death, but Palestinians - normal Palestinians who are being killed by the thousands, they love life as well and they are dying in this ongoing military operation. There is - I just want to ask you, we only have a couple of seconds left, United States is now pushing for a humanitarian pause. Is this something that you think Israel is going to agree to or does the Netanyahu government want to press forward with its operation in Rafah before implementing a pause?

HYMAN: I'm not sure how you're defining a humanitarian pause. If this is some kind of a ...

MARQUARDT: A stop in the fighting. A break in the fighting.

HYMAN: ... (inaudible) if it's to release hostages, as we've done in the past multiple times, maybe it will - it could be discussed. But if you're talking about a ceasefire, that would be capitulation to Hamas. So the question isn't clear enough for me to give a clear answer.

MARQUARDT: It is being discussed. In fact, it's going to be discussed tomorrow in Cairo. Do you know whether Mossad Director, David Barnea, will be going to that meeting with the CIA Director Bill Burns?

HYMAN: No. I can tell you that the door has been open from Israel's side throughout, and will continue to be, to release the hostages. It's one of the main aims of our operation, is to destroy Hamas and to release the hostages. So we will work every avenue, including what you saw last night when we valiantly released those hostages, and all diplomatic channels open to us. Because we want those people to be home with their family. It is a crime against humanity to take men, women, children and babies hostage. This has to stop.

MARQUARDT: All right. Avi Hyman - excuse men - spokesman for the Israeli government, we need to leave it there. Thank you very much for your time today.

HYMAN: Thank you, Alex.

MARQUARDT: We will be right back.

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