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Former President Donald Trump Awaits Ruling In Civil Fraud Trial; President Biden Holds Putin Responsible For Navalny's Reported Death; Gaza Hospital Faces Catastrophic Conditions After Israeli Siege; High Drama Unfolds In Atlanta Hearing Over Election Subversion Claims; Trump Team Plans To Appeal Any Adverse Decision; Navalny's Reported Death Sparks Outrage And Calls For Accountability; Navalny's Wife Delivers Emotional Message At Munich Security Conference. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 16, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: We are anticipating a ruling at any moment in former president Donald Trump's civil fraud trial. A New York state judge is going to decide if you're going to be a President or not and his co-defendants will be fined hundreds of millions of dollars and potentially be banned for life from doing business in New York. And, quote, Putin is responsible. President Biden speaking from the White House moments ago, saying the Russian president is directly to blame if reports are true that opposition leader Alexei Navalny is dead.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And catastrophic conditions. What was once Gaza's largest functioning hospital is now reportedly without electricity, food and heating. This comes after Israeli forces laid siege and raided the complex in Rafah. We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: As we are closely monitoring a high drama hearing underway in Atlanta, one judge in New York is about to file a potentially very consequential ruling for former President Donald Trump. Today we're going to learn how Trump will be penalized after being found liable for civil fraud in New York. The ruling could be delivered at any minute. In fact, our reporters have been refreshing the web page where the ruling is going to be posted. The former president's real estate empire is on the line in this case.

KEILAR: They're refreshing as they're reporting. It's actually something to witness here. And then in Georgia, allegations that could derail possibly the election subversion case against Donald Trump. Today, the judge there hearing more testimony over whether to disqualify District Attorney Fannie Willis over claims that she financially benefited by making the top prosecutor on the case, a man with whom she maintained a personal relationship. We have our chief legal analyst, Laura Coates, who's been tracking all of this at the courthouse. Laura, we've heard from several witnesses today. We're still waiting to hear from one key player, though.

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIF LEGAL ANALYST: We have not heard from Fanie Willis today. We will not hear more from her. Her team does believe, Brianna, that she was sufficiently adequate in trying to undermine the case against her that would have her disqualified. Remember, they have to prove it's their burden, not Fanie Willis, not her team. But it is their burden. They will have a great opportunity to prove their the other side's burden of proof to suggest that she ought to be disqualified because of a conflict of interest. But it's got to rise to the level such that any of the defendants could not have a fair trial based on this relationship.

The through line required a financial benefit derived by Fanie Willis for naming as the top prosecutor somebody she was romantically involved with. We've heard from the former governor of Georgia, who she originally asked to be on the trial team, who refused because he said he had mouths to feed at his law firm, did not want to have a lifetime of security, having already dealt with it for four years as the governor. We've heard from her father, who substantiated and corroborated her testimony that she in fact felt unsafe in her home, and that's why she went to a condo to try to discount the narrative used by the other side to say it was some kind of a love shack for her.

But now we're hearing from a man who was the former law partner of Nathan Wade, that very same president. He was a top prosecutor, somebody who also was his counsel for his divorce proceedings. And that's why this is so important, because if he had been his attorney, the attorney-client privilege attaches to their communication. Where we are in the court right now is the judge trying to understand the parameters of whether what he is testifying to falls under that category of attorney-client privilege. Now remember to do that, it has to be communication made in furtherance of securing legal advice. Nobody else could have also been present in the room if they were.

[14:05:09]

That takes away the attorney-client privilege if that other person was also not a client. And it cannot be based simply on things outside of the scope of communication, meaning your personal observations of what you were seeing in real time outside of that communication. And the biggest exception, of course, is the crime-fraud exception, meaning that an attorney and a client cannot benefit from that privilege and not have their communications disclosed if they are communicating with the purpose of committing a crime or a fraud.

This was the issue where the judge took heart. It was suggested that this particular witness in testifying needed to think about every communication, even prior to an accusation of any underhanded behavior by Fanie Willis or Nathan Wade , the judge would not do so. And my colleague, Nick (ph) Valencia, just recently spoke, by the way, some of the high-powered people who were in the courtroom today including Mayor Andre Dickens, the mayor of Atlanta.

Nick Valencia was told that he believes that Fanie Willis, in spite of all that has transpired, absolutely has the support of Fulton County and the city of Atlanta more broadly. Why is that so important? Of course, in the court of public opinion, there is but one jury pool, and that is Fulton County.

SANCHEZ: Laura, I'm also curious what you make of the reporting from Nick and others on our team that people close to the DA have counselled her on getting rid of Nathan Wade as the special prosecutor, one of the special prosecutors on this case. What do you make of the potential for that to happen?

COATES: Well, some could argue that although that advice was given, the ship may have sailed. You see, the purpose of that now would be in twofold. One, it could go to the credibility. You don't want any juror who is there, eventually picked and impanelled, to be watching any of your lead prosecutors and thinking about their romantic relationships. They want to have them focused, singularly on the evidence at hand. And this has been quite the distraction.

On the other hand, it won't necessarily cure what is endeavored right now. Remember, it's not whether Nathan Wade financially benefited from his relationship with Fannie Willis. It's whether Fanie Willis benefited from hers with Nathan Wade. If she is disqualified, the entire team is disqualified, an outside consulting agency, the prosecuting counsel of Georgia would be the one to actually then replace this team. We should kick a can down the road, perhaps indefinitely, because that new team is not required to follow the indictment of the grand jury, to follow the defendants in this case, or even continue to pursue it.

So that's going to be a very big thing. But if he were to step down now, certainly the idea of the optics for a jury would be improved. But will it cure the issue of the financial benefits, qualification, motivation by these litigators? Likely not.

KEILAR: Alright, Laura Coates, thank you so much for that. where we are still awaiting the judge's ruling in Trump's civil fraud trial. We have CNN's Kara Scannell, who's been refreshing that court docket's website all day. That's what she's doing, looking off to the side there, clicking, clicking, clicking on that keyboard. And Kristen Holmes is also tracking this for us as well. Kara, where do things stand? Clearly not out yet.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. We're still looking. We're still refreshing. We're waiting for the judge's decision, which is expected today. Could come any moment now. Of course, this will be such a significant moment. This has been a long-running investigation. There was a three-month trial, and the judge now is going to render his verdict. He has already found that Trump had falsified his financial statements by inflating the value of some of his properties, including his triple-X apartment in Manhattan and Mar-a-Lago.

Now the question is, how much will he have to pay? The New York attorney general's office is seeking $370 million. They also want the judge to ban Trump from doing business in New York for life. They're also seeking a five-year ban against his son. Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump are also co-defendants in this case. So that is where the focus is going to be and what the judge says about their individual liability.

You know, after the trial, the judge was asked to rule on some motions. And he said he didn't buy some of Trump's defenses in this case. He said that he thought that some of their expert witnesses lacked credibility. And he said this whole argument that Trump had made about valuations being subjective, he said, you know, a lie is still a lie. So, we have a sense of where the judge is viewing the evidence, but it really will come down to how he says, -- how he explains this liability in here.

You know, this has been a week for Trump where, you know, for years he had been someone that people thought escaped accountability. But we're going to see today some of that accountability with this judge's order. You know, yesterday he learned in court in Manhattan yesterday that he was going to have his first criminal trial now set for March 25th. So a lot of things are coming to head. And there's this ability to escape the trial. That kind of accountability seems to be evaporating. Boris Brianna.

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SANCHEZ: Again, that ruling expected at any moment. It could come down at any second. Kristen, to you, Trump's team has telegraphed that they are going to appeal this decision no matter what it is. Notably, Trump sent out a social media post yesterday saying that they already won the case, which is false, obviously. What's the latest that you're hearing from sources about how he's handling all of this?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, not well. They are bracing for the worst. They have read the tea leaves. They don't think that there's going to be some kind of change at the end and all of a sudden he's going to come out and not owe any money. Talk about two different things here. One, financially, obviously, this would be a huge hit. Donald Trump hates to part with money in any way. Obviously, he's going to have to here for an appeal.

But the other part of this is that it's really personal for him. This is the entire brand of his existence. He's Donald Trump, Trump Tower, New York businessman. Even though he lives in Florida, still considers himself a New York businessman. Not only did he build an empire on this and build a brand on this, he also political brand on this, saying that I'm the successful businessman. Look at all the things that I've accomplished. If I could do this for myself, I could do this for you.

And people bought into that in 2016. It's a message that he's still selling today. The other part of this is that Don and Eric run Trump Org. They have been in charge of that. Donald Trump has taken a step back. He has to run for office. And when he was in the White House. So all of this would directly impact his business, his ability to be a quote unquote businessman. And for him, that is deeply personal.

KEILAR: Yeah, because his image and his sense of self, I wonder when it comes to his myriad legal issues and indictments, if this isn't the one or one of the ones that bothers him the most. HOLMES: It does. And that's why he sat in on multiple court

appearances, even when he wasn't on camera. I mean, tried to go to cameras every single time because that's Donald Trump. But even when he didn't have to be there, he wanted to sit in on some of that testimony because this is something that matters to him. And I am told that he has told his team that when this verdict comes out, he does want to give remarks to something to watch there.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, it's got to sting, not just what you pointed out, losing money, but just the idea that you would be barred from doing business in the state where you became synonymous with success, right?

HOLMES: The apprentice. His entire career has been built on this quote-unquote image that he is a successful New York businessman. This threatens all that.

SANCHEZ: Kristen Holmes, keep us posted when you hear anything from sources once the ruling comes down. Thanks so much. Let's discuss these threads and more with National Security Attorney Bradley Moss and CNN Senior Political Analyst Ron Brownstein. Bradley, first to you, what are you expecting to see in this fraud ruling from Judge Engoron, given that he's already made key decisions in this case?

BRADLEY MOSS, NATIONAL SECURITY ATTORNEY: Sure, yeah. We're looking for two different things. One is the amount of money, the disgorgement that Judge Engoron is going to require from Donald Trump, from the Trump organization. There's been talk, I think the New York Attorney General wants $370 million. I don't know if it'll be less, it'll be more, but it's going to be something sizable. It's not going to be anything like has got liquid cash.

The other issue, though, is does Engeron agree to bar people like Donald Trump himself, his kids, from serving as officers of companies in real estate within the territorial integrity of the state of New York? That is something else the Attorney General also has sought and would obviously be a huge blow, as Kristen was just saying, to his entire business ethos and personal brand, the idea that he couldn't run a real estate company in New York. That's what we're waiting to see. It's all going to be subject to appeal, of course, but this would be a very personal hit for Donald Trump either way.

KEILAR: Well, and as you mentioned, Bradley, that's the point, too. It's all subject to appeal, including that Judge Engeron has already ordered New York to cancel the business certifications for Trump entities in New York, including the Trump organization, which includes more than 400 LLCs. So that's on hold as the appeals process is going to play out. Whatever we find out today, when will that actually kick in? When do you think that we will see this all come to a conclusion?

MOSS: Depends on if and when a stay is ultimately lifted through the appellate system. So certainly they're going to seek a stay of the imposition of any of this until the appeals have run some manner of course. I'm sure that at least some version of a temporary stay will be imposed because you can't exactly unring that bell. But if it gets to the point where he's exhausted his appeals, that's the ballgame. This ruling would go into effect and those businesses would be able to get out of the court. They would have to shut down no matter if he's president or not, quite candidly.

KEILAR: Ron, to me, one of the indicators that this case is personal to Donald Trump is that I think this is the one case where he has been the most vocal, not just in the courtroom itself, but coming in and leaving the courtroom over and over again. He's sort of given these stump speeches to try to counter the idea that his business is at risk, to try to better brand himself. What do you make of the politics of this potential ruling?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think if we're thinking about the impact on the '24 election, actually, the most important thing that happened today is the reporting that Trump has privately indicated he would accept a national abortion ban.

[14:15:19]

I think that's more important than any of these rulings. But I think the risk to Trump is what you were talking about just a minute ago when you were saying that so many of these things are coming to a head. And what he faces is the prospect of heading into a fall election where he has had multiple civil judgments against him. He is on trial or perhaps have already faced verdict in multiple criminal trials.

And there is a question, kind of a camel's back question, or is there a point where this level of chaos and turmoil surrounding him, the argument Nikki Haley has tried to make without success in a Republican primary, whether that level of chaos and turmoil simply is too much for a small but potentially decisive slice of voters who are unhappy with Biden, but maybe unhappy and unwilling to entrust power to Trump again.

That's how Democrats got through the 22 election. An unusually large share of voters dissatisfied with Biden still voted for Democrats because they view the Republican alternative as unacceptable. And that is clearly, I think, the most viable path for him to win a second term. All of this, I think, you know, takes us step by step toward Democrats being able to make that argument.

KEILAR: Ron, you mentioned the abortion issue, which, you know, has played so well since Dobbs, for Democrats. How do you see all of this? How do you see all of this chaos and attention on these legal cases interacting with voters' attention to the issues?

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah, you know, I -- Look, the abortion thing is significant. I said many times during the primary, you know, there were a lot of reporters who said, well, Trump is not saying he's going to support a national ban. In fact, he has made clear all along that the question was not whether, but what, how many weeks, and that he had argued that he had put the pro-life community in the position to get the best deal it could by appointing the justices who overturn Roe. That is something that he's going to have to carry into November.

And I guess I do think that the voters who are most likely to move away from the Republican Party over the issue of abortion are essentially the same voters who are most likely to recoil from the idea of all of the chaos that surrounds Trump and the same voters who are disproportionately voting for Haley in the primaries and saying they are reluctant to vote for Trump again, particularly if he's committed a crime.

And those are white, you know, Republican-leaning independents who traditionally have been closer to the GOP on issues. And in fact, they feel closer to Trump on issues like the border and the economy than they do to Biden. And the question is whether Biden can win, as I said, a slice of them, despite all that, because of their personal reservations about Trump and what he means for rights, values, and democracy itself.

SANCHEZ: Bradley, picking up where we started the hour, talking about the developments in Fulton County, it doesn't seem like we're going to hear from District Attorney Fani Willis again after her testimony yesterday. High drama in the courtroom then. It seems like the prosecution in the case is confident that her testimony was enough to dissuade the judge that she should be disqualified from the case. Is that a fair assessment?

MOSS: Yeah, I mean, talk about a made-for-TV moment we had there yesterday with Fani Willis just walking in saying, forget these objections. I'm just going to testify. Let's go. No, I thought her testimony, on the factual front, was very persuasive, very strong. It was an outright denial, categorical rejection of the allegations brought by one of the defendant's lawyers.

And what we've had going on just over the last 30 minutes, right before I came on the air, was that they were trying to get testimony in from Nathan Wade's former law partner. The judge rejected some of the questions saying it implicated attorney-client privilege and that the crime fraud exception did not apply. That's a blow to the defendants. And reviewing, all the information they've presented today through Mr. Bradley, it appears basically that they have misinterpreted gossip that came out of text messages, multi-pronged commentary, and they just ran with it. I don't think there's anything there there to this other than throwing political smear at this point.

KEILAR: Bradley, Ron, thank you so much. You know, it's enough to make your head spin all of these developments, and we thank you for being with us to make sense of it. And still ahead, officials in Moscow saying, anyone caught protesting over the reported death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny will be arrested. We're following the very latest.

SANCHEZ: Plus, President Biden is heading to East Palestine, Ohio, more than a year after the Norfolk Southern train derailment. But is today's visit too late? Some residents there are critical of President Biden's handling of this. Those stories and much more coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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SANCHEZ: The world, including people in Russia, are mourning the reported death of Vladimir Putin's most famous opponent, Alexei Navalny. A short time ago. President Biden said that if the reports are true, Vladimir Putin is responsible. Biden praised Navalny's courage for returning to his homeland despite being poisoned back in 2020 by a Soviet-era nerve agent. Here's the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITE STATES: I'm literally both not surprised and outraged by the news. Reported death of Alexei Navalny. He bravely stood up to the corruption, the violence. All the bad things that the Putin government was doing. Make no mistake. Make no mistake. Putin is responsible for Navalny's death. Putin is responsible. What has happened to Navalny is yet more proof of Putin's brutality.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: The U.S. is working to confirm the Russian prison service report that Navalny died today at the age of 47 after collapsing during a walk in the Siberian prison where he's been jailed. Since last December. Navalny's mother said he was, quote, healthy on Monday when she saw him.

[14:25:29]

And this video shows Navalny just yesterday during a video court appearance. We want you to listen to him as he's joking with the judge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXEI NAVALNY, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER: (foreign language)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN chief national security correspondent Alex Marquardt has been tracking the story from Munich, Germany at the Munich security conference. Obviously Navalny's wife was there and she spoke today giving a very emotional message to the world about Alexei.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECUIRTY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah that's right Boris. It really was a remarkable moment. Vice President Kamala Harris essentially opened up this conference and noted that Yulia Navalny was there and not long after she finished speaking conference organizers said that there would be a surprise guest on stage and just moments later Mrs. Navalny, Yulia Navalny took the stage. She was emotional but certainly kept it together.

Very powerful remarks. Very stoic. Almost in disbelief as you can imagine she said that she noted the reports out of Russia. Said that she didn't know whether to believe them or not but made clear that this is a part of what she called the fight against evil. Here's a little bit more of what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) YULIA NAVALNAYA, ALEXEY NAVALNY'S WIFE (through translator): I would like to call upon all the international community, all the people in the world, we should come together and we should fight against this evil. We should fight this horrific regime in Russia today. This regime and Vladimir Putin should be personally held responsible for all the atrocities they have committed in our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: And then right after that, Boris and Brianna, she got a standing ovation from the dignitaries in that hall and that in the hotel right behind me. We do know that Navalnaya also met with Secretary of State Antony Blinken, as well as the U.S. vice president, both of them offering their condolences to her and saying that Putin must be held accountable.

Putin was already looming large over this conference because so much of the focus is on Ukraine, supporting Ukraine in their war against Russia. Now, this conference with all these world leaders here has been completely dominated by this news of Alexei Navalny's death. Guys.

SANCHEZ: And Alex, what more are you learning about the response in Russia to this news?

MARQUARDT: Well, Boris, it's really quite dismissive. I mean, we've heard all these world leaders saying that without a doubt, Putin is responsible, that Russia and the Putin regime must be held accountable and a complete dismissal from the Kremlin. They specifically said that these Western responses are rabid and unacceptable, that they were rather predictable. In their words, completely obvious.

They chastised the West and those who are condemning this by saying that there's no proof yet, that doctors haven't spoken, there's been no forensic study. At the same time, the Moscow prosecutor's office is warning that there can't be protests in response to Navalny's death, that those have not been authorized, that they're not allowed, that people who go out and protest may be arrested.

But to some extent, guys, you know, obviously the argument from the Kremlin falls flat because regardless of how he died, it was almost certainly as a result of being in prison. If he wasn't killed directly, it was because he was in prison, because of the conditions that he was held in. And the reason that he was in prison was because he had become the most popular, the most supported, the most vocal critic of Vladimir Putin. Boris, Brianna.

SANCHEZ: Alex Marquardt, Live for us from Munich, Germany. Thanks so much, Alex. Brianna.

KEILAR: Joining us now is Angela Stent, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. She wrote the book Putin's World, Russia Against the West and With the Rest. And Angela, it's great to have you to put this into context because this death of Alex Navalny coincides with Putin's upcoming elections that appear to be fixed and with former President Trump's recent comments that Russia can do whatever it wants with NATO partners who aren't up to date on their jobs.

And also as Tucker Carlson has visited Moscow having this, I kind of use air quotes interview with Putin and talking about how great grocery prices are there. How do you see this moment broadly?

ANGELA STENT, AUTHOR "PUTIN'S WORLD: RUSSIA AGAINST THE WEST & WITH THE REST": Well, I think first of all, it's a great loss, you know, for the Russian opposition. It's a real statement about how repressive things are in Russia. The Kremlin dismissing this. We know that the Kremlin's responsible for Navalny's death. After all, they, agents poisoned him in 2020 with (technical difficulty) -- the bleak situation in Russia that the key opposition leader is.