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Trump Arrives In Court For Day Two; Tim Heaphy Is Interviewed About The January 6th Case; Killing Of Two Women In Oklahoma; Trump Bashes Judge Over Gag Order; DOJ To File Suit Against Live Nation. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired April 16, 2024 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Joining me now. I think Paula Reid's going to join us as well.

Kristen, can we start with the refrain that we've heard from Donald Trump often where he blames this as all being orchestrated and coming from the Biden White House. There is no basis for those claims.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's absolutely no reason. Also, remember, we're in court in New York right now. This isn't even where the Department of Justice cases, where there is some link to the Biden administration because the Department of Justice falls under the administration. Again, there's only link to Biden in any of these cases.

However, this is a New York state case. He is entering the courtroom in New York that was brought by the district attorney in New York. This is nothing to do with President Joe Biden. But as we have heard time and time again, Donald Trump has really tried to take control of the narrative here to make this about politics, to make this about, quote/unquote, election interference. Essentially the messaging theme that President Biden does not want him running against him in November so has orchestrated entire legal system to be on his side to put him through these various trials so that he won't run in November.

I will tell you, Kate, this is something that resonates with some of his supporters, some of his base. But, again, when it comes to the actual facts of this, that is incorrect.

The other part of this that I thought was so interesting is remember, he did not mention any of the witnesses here. This comes after yesterday after prosecutors asked the judge to fine Donald Trump over his three social media post in which he mentioned witnesses, saying that he had violated the gag order that said that he couldn't talk about witnesses. We're waiting to see if he does anything with that. Again, I know that there were reporters asking about that in the hallway. Interesting, Donald Trump just gave his slate speech, came right out of the can, and then walked into that courtroom.

BOLDUAN: And let me bring in Paula on this.

And Kristen makes a very important point, he can - because Donald Trump complains about the gag order, saying that they're silencing him and he cannot speak up and can't have his say. That's what he says about it. But that is not true because everything he said, even attacking the judge there, that is - that is - that's free game for him. That's not what the gag order gets to, Paula.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the expanded gag order covers witnesses, jurors, family members of court personnel, but it does not cover the judge or the elected district attorney, Alvin Bragg. So, you can see that he's trying to work within the bounds of that gag order.

The frustration that he and his lawyers have expressed, though, is, for example, Michael Cohen or Stormy Daniels, who were the subjects if some of the social media posts that prosecutors were pointing to yesterday, Trump's argument is, hey, they can talk about me all the time and say disparaging things, but I can't talk about them? That's inherently unfair.

So, people may see it that way, but the fact is, he is a criminal defendant in the state of New York, and he is subject to this expanded gag order.

BOLDUAN: Paula Reid, Kristen Holmes, thank you, guys, for jumping on.

Donald Trump heading into the courtroom, which means day two of the history-making criminal trial that he's facing in New York City will be getting underway very shortly. We're going to cover that.

I also want to bring back in Tim Heaphy and continue the conversation, or even let's just start the conversation now, Tim, with what Paula Reid was reporting before, which is in another courtroom, in another city, where the Supreme Court is going to be looking - is going to be considering oral arguments today that could up end the sentences and the cases relating to the January 6th rioters. The question before the justices really is one of scope, of this federal obstruction law that more than 350 of them were charged under. The implications and the fallout from this could be huge. What is it going to look like if the convictions of 300 plus people of these rioters are now thrown into limbo?

TIM HEAPHY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes. Yes, exactly right, Kate. The Supreme Court has to define the scope of the statute that was passed in the wake of the Enron scandal. It has two halves. Half of it applies to the alteration or mutilation of documents. The other half is for otherwise corrupt - corruptly interferes, impedes, or obstructs an official proceeding. The government alleges that that otherwise is sort of a broad catchall. And any way in which a person somehow interferes with an official proceeding is covered by the statute. Mr. Fisher (ph), the defendant in the case, argues, no, you have to look at otherwise in connection to that, that first part, which is, the alteration of documents. I think it does have broad implications for what I've always called the sort of blue-collar part of the Jan. 6th case. There are a lot of people that are charged with trespass or assault or cases in which they are alleged to have violently breached the boundaries of the Capitol. But then there's the white-collar part of the case, which is a much broader effort to interfere with the official proceeding. And I don't think that even the narrow interpretation would touch the white-collar part because there are false documents. There are these fake elector certificates that the government has alleged were part of the charge conspiracy.

[09:35:04]

So, even under the narrow construction, I think the white-collar defendants in the Jan. 6th cases, including the former president, survive.

BOLDUAN: What - and that's what I wanted to ask you because the - when you talk about implications from the Supreme Court and what this looks like, special counsel Jack Smith seems to be kind of looking ahead. He wrote - there was a filing where he even noted and made the case that even if this - the scope of this is defined narrowly with the Supreme Court ruling, he still thinks that he can move ahead with the case against Donald Trump because he has charged Trump with violating the same law as part of his election interference case. You think that it stands regardless of what we hear today.

HEAPHY: Yes, I do. First of all, there are four counts in the special counsel's indictment of the former president, two of which are under this statute that's at issue in front of the court today. The other two conspiracy to defraud the United States and the deprivation of civil rights, the right to vote, would not be touched by this opinion. But even if the Supreme Court narrowly interprets 1512, that obstruction statute, the special counsel has evidenced that he did use false documents, which would be consistent with that obstruction theory tied to the Enron pattern and the more limited interpretation, that part of the charged conspiracy was the submission of these fake electors that were signed as official but were not - did not reflect the results of the voters in that state.

So, I think the special counsel's indictment of the former president is fine regardless. There are a lot of other cases, as Paula points out, where there is no - there are no - the defendants were not involved in fake electors. They're just up there storming the Capitol. Those convictions under that statute are potentially subject to those counts being dismissed and resentencing. Almost all of those cases, though, also had other counts. So, I don't expect a lot of practical impact even of a narrow interpretation.

BOLDUAN: It's great to have you because you have two - two pieces of your resume are so critical on this, as a former federal prosecutor, also as the chief investigative counsel to the January 6th Committee. You know the details of what happened, when, and by whom better than anyone.

Tim, thank you so much for coming on. It's good to see you.

HEAPHY: Thank you, Kate.

BOLDUAN: A programming note for all of you. Next hour CNN will be taking the Supreme Court arguments live. We'll be bringing you that in special coverage of that.

Still ahead for us, they called themselves "God's Misfits." Now four Oklahoma defendants are facing murder charges in the alleged killing of two Kansas women.

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[08:41:47]

BOLDUAN: Tasers, burner phones, and a bloody scene, all now part of the case being built against four suspects. The unsealed court documents now revealing new information about the investigation into the disappearance and murder of two women in Oklahoma. Now a custody battle between one of the victims and one of the suspects is becoming a focus.

CNN's Rosa Flores has much more on this. She's joining us now.

Rosa, what are you learning?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, I checked with investigators this morning to see if there were any new details. They say no. But I want to start from the top here to get you through this.

This nightmare started about two weeks ago for the families of Veronica Butler and Jilian Kelley. That's when Butler and Kelley were on their way to pick up Butler's children from their grandmother. That's when these two women vanished in rural Oklahoma. They were supposed to go to a birthday party. When they didn't show up, Butler's family went out to try to find these women and they found the abandoned car. That's when they called police.

Now, we have video of that area. You now see flowers and a cross with the names of both of these women there.

Now, investigators responded to the scene. And here is how that scene is described in court affidavits. It says, quote, "blood was found on the roadway and edge of the roadway. Butler's glasses were also found in the roadway south of the vehicle near a broken hammer. A pistol magazine was found inside Kelley's purse at the scene, but no pistol was found."

Now, according to that same affidavit, Butler and the grandmother of the children are in this custody battle. And now - and now the grandmother is accused of Butler's murder. But she's not the only suspect. There are four suspects.

Take a look.

Now, Tifany Machel Adams is that grandmother. Her boyfriend is also a suspect. That's Tad Bert Cullum. And the two other suspects are married, Cole Earl Twombly and Cora Gayle Twombly. They all belong to an anti-government group called "God's Misfits." And again, all of this is according to the affidavits. Now, it's important to note, that two bodies were recovered over the

weekend. The medical examiner has not identified them as Butler or Kelley. The medical examiner is still working to identify the bodies. But the affidavit makes it very clear that these four suspects are charged with two first degree murder charges, two kidnapping charges, and one charge for conspiracy to commit first-degree murder, quote, "by arranging and planning the deliberate, intentional, and unlawful taking of the life of Veronica Butler and/or Jilian Kelley."

Now, this affidavit goes on to say that Adams, the grandmother, purchased five stun guns, three burner phones. There are multiple agencies involved in this case.

And, Kate, I should add that CNN has made attempts to determine if these four suspects have legal representation. We have not been successful. What we do know is that they will be facing a judge for the first time tomorrow morning.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Maybe we will learn more there and then.

Rosa, thank you very much.

John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: All right, Kate, just a couple minutes ago, Donald Trump arrived at the Manhattan courthouse for his New York criminal trial. Before going into the courtroom, he had a few comments.

[09:45:02]

I want to play just the beginning of it so you get a flavor for how he seemed today.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE), sir?

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you very much.

This is a trial that should have never been brought. It's a trial that is being looked upon and looked at all over the world they're calling them - they're - they're looking at it and analyzing it. Every illegal pundit, every legal scholar said this trial is a disgrace. We have a Trump-hating judge -

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So you can hear Donald Trump there, who came across as a bit angry, perhaps, saying that all over the world legal analysts are looking at this and analyzing the case. With us now is senior political commentator, former special assistant

to president George W Bush, Scott Jennings, and CNN political commentator and former South Carolina State Representative Bakari Sellers.

And, Bakari, if you had a chance to see him go into the courtroom today, it appeared to be a little bit of a different Donald Trump than we saw maybe before. He may have seemed a little angry there. I don't know if he's reacting to the reports from Maggie Haberman and others that he fell asleep in the courtroom yesterday or appeared to nod off. But is this the kind of look that you think he wants to send over the next several weeks where this will be a large part of where he's spending his campaign?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, this isn't the look of someone who was the former president of the United States. This isn't the look of who Scott Jennings and his party have nominated to run for president of the United States. This is the look of a criminal defendant. And he has the same behavior as criminal defendants. I'm a criminal defense attorney. I do that - I do that a lot. And many of my defendants, many of my clients are in the same precarious predicament and they had that same type of reaction when asked questions. I mean it's more fear than anything else. You don't have control over the situation around you.

Donald Trump has completely lost control of the situation in the courtroom. And that's what you're seeing. You're seeing this very palpable fear of a criminal defendant. Let's not forget that now he is on the other end of the criminal justice system, where he's tried to put so many other individuals, the Central Park Five come to mind initially, but now he is on that end of the criminal justice system and he's going to get justice doled out to him like everyone else in the United States of America. He's not above the law and he's going to have to sit there and take it. In a few weeks he'll be a felon.

BERMAN: Well, we'll see. Obviously, they have to go through this trial before they render a verdict.

Scott, to you.

On the political rewards and risks for Donald Trump in his behavior as he enters and exits this courtroom almost everyday for the next six weeks, how do you see it?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, now, on the one hand, you know, not much has really changed Donald Trump's image overall. I mean, in the last four years, his image has basically unchanged. Biden's has taken a nosedive, but his is unchanged. And so I wonder sometimes if it's easy to overread this and say this is going to affect him, this won't.

I think in terms of political rewards, I mean his basis is enraged by this, obviously. They think this case is a dog and they think he's being unfairly treated. Just as we've seen him use other parts of the legal process here to ramp up that rage and turn that into political activism or fundraising activism. You know, I fully expect them to do that again.

Overall case, I think people are worried less about this thing than they are the January 6th case, which we still don't know whether that's going to trial.

BERMAN: Yes, I mean, and you talk about what might be baked into the cake with Donald Trump already. And, Scott, I'll put this one to you first.

We know there are going to be salacious details that come out in this trial because of the legal rulings that were made yesterday. No, they won't be able to play the "Access Hollywood" tape, but, yes, they will be able to refer to the transcript. Karen McDougal, who Donald Trump allegedly had a relationship with, some of the testimony about that allege relationship will be part of this.

What impact might that have, Scott, on say women voters in this election?

JENNINGS: I mean are we - are you telling me we're about to find out that Donald Trump had sex with women who aren't his wife? I mean, are we all going to be shocked by this? I mean we - there's nothing - that's the thing about all this. There's really nothing you can tell the voter, the average voter in America, something they don't already know about Donald Trump.

What they may not know yet and what they won't know until this is over width is whether he's going to be convicted of a crime over it or what happens to him this summer.

But in terms of personal behavior, in terms of who he is, people know this already. And so that's why I don't expect massive flows in his overall image because there's not a darn thing that's going to be said, in my opinion, that's going to change what people already believe, whether you love him or hate him, about Donald Trump.

BERMAN: So, Bakari, is that right, all asked and answered when it comes to any of these details about Donald Trump?

SELLERS: So, I think two things that Scott said are just absolutely correct. Of the four cases Donald Trump is facing, this probably is the weakest. I think any lawyer will tell you that or any viewer - or astute viewer will tell you this is weaker than the classified documents, January 6th, and the Atlanta RICO trial. He doesn't have nearly the exposure. That's first.

Second, yes, I mean, Donald Trump, you know, this is baked into the cake.

[09:50:04]

Everybody who votes for Donald Trump knows that he cheated on his wife with a porn star. Every - everybody who votes for Donald Trump knows that. Now whether or not Christian conservatives and white male evangelical sleep well at night knowing that's who they cast their ballot for, that's between them and who they pray to. The other - the only thing I disagree with Scott over is this one thing. This race is going to be so close that it's going to be won around the fringes. Those - those excerpts. Those suburbs excerpts. And I believe that there are going to be enough voters who we have to hear this repeatedly and repeatedly that it won't change a wide swath. He's not going to drop a three, four, five percentages anywhere. But he might drop half a percent here, half a percentage there. That may be enough to lose Michigan, lose Pennsylvania, lose Wisconsin. You never know.

BERMAN: Of course, Donald Trump denies the existence of these relationships. We will see how it plays out. It was interesting, and I have to wrap up here, but Mitch Landrieu, who is speaking on behalf of the Biden campaign, he only tangentially refers to this core case, although it does seem to be some programming from the Democrats now with this case going on.

Scott, great to see you.

Bakari, great to see you as well.

So, will ticketing giant Live Nation have to face the music? Why the Justice Department may be listening to some angry Taylor Swift fans. We just heard some angry Taylor Swift fans. Oh, no, that was actually Taylor Swift.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: This morning, new reporting about a legal case that could change the music industry as we know it. According to "The Wall Street Journal," the Justice Department is getting ready to bring an antitrust lawsuit against Live Nation, one of the biggest names in live music.

[09:55:05]

Live Nation is the parent company of Ticketmaster. And Live Nation and Ticketmaster, you'll remember, got all the wrong headlines back in 2022 after the pre-sale ticketing debacle for the Taylor Swift Eras Tour.

CNN's Elizabeth Wagmeister has much more on this new reporting coming out.

"The Wall Street Journal" was reporting this first, Elizabeth. Tell us more about what we're learning.

ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, according to "The Wall Street Journal," the Department of Justice is preparing to file an antitrust suit against Live Nation as soon as next month.

Now, the specific allegations have not come to light yet, but essentially what this report is saying is that Ticketmaster and Live Nation have a hold on the industry and they have monopolized the industry. There is no competition. Now, in the past, Live Nation has downplayed this and they have said

that they are not responsible for inflated ticket prices. But as you said, Kate, we all remember back in 2022, when there was a nationwide meltdown over Taylor Swift's Eras Tour, when fans could not get tickets, it even prompted Taylor Swift to respond on her Instagram, which is very rare for Taylor Swift to do, and she said how upset she was over this that her fans couldn't get tickets or that the tickets were at astronomical prices.

Now, this even resulted in a hearing last year in January of 2023. It was very contentious. The president of Live Nation testified. And this was one of those rare occurrences that brought together lawmakers from both sides.

Now, we have reached out to both Live Nation and the DOJ, and we have not heard back. But in a statement to "The Wall Street Journal," a spokesperson for Ticketmaster had this to say, quote, "Ticketmaster has more competition today than it has ever had, and the deal terms with venues show it has nothing close to monopoly power."

This, obviously, is one of the biggest issues, Kate, facing the music industry. So, much more to come.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Elizabeth, thank you so much for bringing us that reporting.

BERMAN: And thank you all for being with us today. This has been CNN NEWS CENTRAL. A very special CNN NEWSROOM with Jim Acosta is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. We are following two major legal stories today impacting former President Donald Trump.

[10:00:01]

In New York, jury selection has resumed in the criminal hush money trial against Trump. He spoke before heading into court as he fights 34 felony charges of falsifying