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AZ Lawmakers Fail To Bring Up Repeal Vote For Civil War-Era Abortion Ban; Impeachment Begins For Homeland Security Secretary Mayorkas. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 17, 2024 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And he is -- he has come out to say that he believes that the repeal should be considered.

And some of the attempts that we saw today, at least the very first vote to bypass procedures, was tied 30-30. They're 31 Republicans, 29 Democrats. So it is extremely tight.

You have certain Republicans in those swing districts who are very interested in appealing to their constituents. And then others who are very hard line about this.

So I think you're looking at, as we mentioned, a very dynamic Arizona, a very purple state where we're going to see a lot of this play out in the November election.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Yes, there's no doubt about that.

And Natasha Chen, for us in Phoenix, thank you so much for that reporting. And we're going to stay on that story.

And also, what's happening on the U.S. Senate floor right now, looking live. Stay with CNN NEWS CENTRAL. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:35:31]

DEAN: We are watching the Senate floor as the impeachment trial of the Department of Homeland Security secretary, Alejandro Mayorkas, gets underway.

And so we are seeing this all play out, this very historic moment. How it hasn't happened since around the Civil War era.

And we have a number of guests with us as we watch this play out.

But I want to go to Michael Gerhardt first.

Because, Michael, we saw Schumer moving to essentially kill this first article of impeachment, calling it unconstitutional. What are we seeing happen right now? MICHAEL GERHARDT, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR, UNC-CHAPEL HILL: I

think what we're seeing is Senators Schumer maybe putting forth arguments on behalf of that.

There may be some debate about that point of order. But eventually, of course, that debate will cease and there will be a vote.

DEAN: And this is just -- there is a lot of arcane policy that goes into one of these impeachment trials, right?

GERHARDT: Yes. You really have to understand the rules of both -- the Senate rules for impeachment and the Senate rules more generally. And that is the job primarily of the majority leader and minority leader.

But for Senator Schumer, he obviously understands them really well. And he's being really careful to try and navigate through those rules to get to the outcome that he wants.

And it may sound a bit technical and even perhaps boring, but, in fact, they're talking about something that's quite significant, and that is whether or not to stop any further consideration of these articles and to begin a process to kill each one of them.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Tim Naftali is also with us. He's a presidential historian.

And, Tim, I'm curious to get your perspective on what we're watching unfold. And why you think it is so important for Republicans like Senator Schmidt of Missouri to have this time to debate and to take a megaphone to their belief that Mayorkas should be impeached, or rather convicted.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, as we've seen play out over the last -- over the course of the last year, and some, the Republican caucus is broken on Capitol Hill.

And Senate Republicans are trying to work with House Republicans to get basic bills passed, for example, aid to Ukraine, aid to Israel, and spending for border control.

So they're -- part of this is just institutional respect. Part of it is also party building. There's a sense that the Senators don't want to embarrass fellow Republicans from the House.

So the challenge for these Senators is, how do you pay respect to their grievances without forcing the Senate to delay work on other priorities for a trial that everybody in the Senate knows will result in an acquittal?

DEAN: And just to remind everybody and kind of set the scene right now, right now, the Senators are on the floor trying to figure out how to move forward. Because the Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, presented some options. Senator Eric Schmidt from Missouri objected to it.

And now that we know that some Republicans didn't want that agreement because they want their time to seek amendments, they want their time to talk on the floor, they want to present their arguments, they want the debate.

But right now, they're trying to figure out how to do that. Because in the Senate, everyone has to agree on the plan to move forward. And right now, they don't have that total agreement.

So as Manu Raju, our chief congressional correspondent, told us just a few -- a few moments ago, right now, there's not a ton happening to the eye as we watch that floor.

But what's happening, a lot of conversations going back and forth between various offices. And you can imagine that the majority leader's and the minority leader's offices are trying to sort through what this might look like going ahead.

So we're going to keep an eye on that. But stay with us because there is actually more happening on the Hill that we want to get to.

The president of Columbia University, just grilled on the rise of anti-Semitism on that school's campus. What she has to say about keeping students safe and holding hate accountable.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:42:23]

SANCHEZ: Let's go straight to the floor of the Senate where Senator Ted Cruz of Texas is making a point of order.

Let's listen.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): -- Constitution, to the original understanding of the Constitution at the time it was ratified. And to the explicit position of the Biden Department of Justice as argued before the Supreme Court of the United States.

The majority leader's position is asking members of this Senate to vote on political expediency to avoid listening to arguments. The only rational way to resolve this question is actually to debate it, to consider the Constitution and consider the law.

SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D-WA). The Senator will recognize that the Senate is in a non-debatable position. The Senator has a right to offer his point of order but - or his motion. But we are in a non-debatable position.

CRUZ: And my motion is to change that so that we can actually debate the law if Senators care what the Constitution and law says.

I, therefore, move that the Senate proceed to closed session to allow for deliberation on the questions, as required by impeachment rule 24.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Madam President?

MURRAY: Majority Leader? SCHUMER: In our previous consent request, we gave your side a chance for debate in public, where it should be. And your side objected. We are moving forward.

MURRAY: The question is on the motion.

(CROSSTALK)

MURRAY: Is there a sufficient second?

(CROSSTALK)

MURRAY: There is a sufficient?

The clerk will call the roll.

UNIDENTIFIED SENATE CLERK: Ms. Baldwin, Mr. Barrasso, Mr. Bennett, Mrs. Blackburn, Mr. Blumenthal, Mr. Booker, Mr. Bozeman, Mr. Braun. Mrs. (INAUDIBLE) -

SANCHEZ: Some testy moments there on the floor of the Senate.

Let's get straight to Manu Raju, who's been watching what's happening.

Manu, a quick back-and-forth between Senator Schumer and Senator Cruz. And now a vote. What are they voting on?

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR & CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. This is an effort by the Republicans to try to push ahead with this trial. We did expect some of this to happen.

Essentially, what Ted Cruz is arguing here, that there should not be quickly dismissed as the Senate. Democrats are prepared to do, and that what this motion actually would actually do, to actually allow this debate to happen in closed session.

He said that actually needs to be a debate over whether or not Alejandro Mayorkas must be convicted on a high crimes and misdemeanor here. But the Democrats want nothing to do with this.

They think this is all political. They don't believe that this rises to the level of impeachment. They believe this is simply a policy dispute over the border and Republicans are going after Mayorkas as unfairly.

[14:45:08]

So that's why you're going to see here on the Senate floor this to come down mostly along party lines. It will be interesting to see if any Republicans or Democrats defect in any way.

But we do expect this 51, 49, Democratic-controlled Senate to essentially quash this Ted Cruz effort. And they'll try to move on and do something else.

Will it -- another thing to watch is what happens after this. Because Chuck Schumer is trying to essentially end this proceeding. He offered them an agreement coming into this, saying we'll give you a handful of votes on whatever issues you want to push, including calls for a full- blown trial.

Republicans didn't want that. There were some that objected to it because they didn't want to be party to an agreement that included, at the end of it, a dismissal of all these charges. So instead they're just kind of kind of feel their way until eventually getting to Chuck Schumer's motion.

So this is an opportunity for Republicans, if they want to come forward after this, offer their own points of order, try to make their own political points on the floor.

But Democrats are ready to beat back every single one of these motions. We'll see how many there ultimately are on the Republican side.

But as you heard from Chuck Schumer, he said, we are moving forward, meaning that they're going to vote eventually kill these two articles of impeachment whenever they get a chance to do it.

DEAN: And, Manu, before we let you go, I just want to underscore what we're hearing you say, which is, as we move forward and we watch this unfold before us, we don't know exactly how we're going to get to that eventual ending that we are pretty sure about.

They don't have some grand agreement to get there. They're going to kind of have to feel their way through it. Is that what you're saying?

RAJU: Yes. Yes absolutely. Because that's just the way this process works. There are no real -- there are really no procedures on how a Senate trial can operate. There really are no rules. There are no-- nothing hard and fast saying they must do this, they must do this, they must do this.

In fact, they have to agree upon themselves on what the rules are. And they haven't been able to reach an agreement on what those rules are or what amendments, and what points of orders and what can be voted on and the like, which is why it's a little bit uncertain.

We're in a bit of -- it's kind of fluid. We'll see if any members decide to have their own votes, unless they actually reach a time agreement which all 100 Senators can agree on, lock it down, and they say, OK, were going to vote on this debate this, debate this. Then we'll get to the final vote.

But they're not there yet, as you can see, given just the divisions in the Senate over this issue, over this impeachment proceeding.

So that's why we're in a bit of uncertain territory. It could be accompanied in 20 minutes, it could be a few hours. So we'll just have to --

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: It's the joy of covering the U.S. Senate. No one knows that better than Manu.

OK. Thanks so much better.

SANCHEZ: Better keep the popcorn handy.

DEAN: Yes.

SANCHEZ: We don't know when it's going to end.

Gloria, your point?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I was going to say, I mean, it was very clear that Chuck Schumer said, look, I gave you guys the opportunity here. I laid it out at the beginning. I gave you debate time and you decided not to take it. And so we're going to proceed.

Now it's going to be a circuitous route, as Ted Cruz sort of laid out, and everything is circuitous when it comes to the Senate. But you know where you're going to wind up. You're going to wind up with him -- not a conviction.

SANCHEZ: Right.

BORGER: So you know, but as Manu says, there's got to be a lot of iterations here because the Republicans are not going to give up that easily and they're probably going to want to raise more points, more questions or points of order, whatever you want to call it.

But Schumer was adamant and said we gave you an opportunity and you decided not to take it and were moving ahead.

DEAN: And you know, and I'm watching this unfold, and as Manu so eloquently said, it could be 20 minutes, it could be hours. We don't know.

BORGER: Right.

DEAN: But, Gloria, you know this that Senate floor time is so valuable. And if you're the Democrats and you're the Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, they want to move on judges and all these other nominees.

BORGER: Right.

DEAN: And this eats up a fair amount of time.

BORGER: Also, don't forget, they're trapped in there.

DEAN: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

BORGER: You've got -- you've got all the Senators in there and they can't really leave, right?

SANCHEZ: Yes.

BORGER: And they can't do other business.

SANCHEZ: Right?

BORGER: And so that may work on the side of the getting this over sooner, rather than later, because they are trapped in there.

But, you know, I don't think Republicans are going to want to give up that easily.

SANCHEZ: At last check, we were in the "R"s during the roll-call vote. I'm not sure where -- we're still waiting for the tabulation.

We do have Michael Gerhardt with us.

Michael, your view of this vote that's being taken right now?

GERHARDT: Well, one thing to keep in mind is that it's a point of order. And according to the Senate rules, a point of order is not debatable. That's why you saw the chair, the presiding officer, Senator Murray, sort of caution Senator Cruz basically, OK, stop debating. Stop -- sort of engaging in a long speech.

And so one arguable advantage of a point of order is it cuts off debate and then it goes straight to a vote. So that's -- so right now, we're having to vote on Senator Cruz's point of order.

[14:50:05]

Right after that, we don't know if the presiding officer may go right back to Senator Schumer, who may make another point of order, but were going to have this sort of process now with one or the other side trying to make points of order.

But keep in mind, a point of order is not debatable. So the votes will happen pretty quickly.

DEAN: Yes, and that will be -- as Manu was just telling us, there's no hard and fast rules here. It kind of can veer and swerve. And so we'll have to - we're just kind of seeing how this all unfolds.

Tim Naftali, I think you're still with us.

Again, just kind of putting into context for us, you know, impeachment was always used pretty rarely. And we've seen -- we've seen it happening more frequently.

Does this kind of present to you, if you look at it through the lens of Republicans trying to avenge President Trump being impeached twice, do you see shades of that in this? Is this just an argument about policy that has now been elevated to the impeachment level?

NAFTALI: Well impeachment has been used or was once used rarely against executive officers. In other words, against presidents and against members of the cabinet. As we've said, a number of times, the only other member of a cabinet

to be subjected to a Senate trial was William Belknap in 1876 and he was --

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Sorry to interrupt you.

We're just going to listen, and really quick, to Senator Patty Murray here.

MURRAY: -- expression, having heard Senator Schumer's serious allegations, which, in my judgment or specious, about the constitutionality of these impeachment proceedings, we find ourselves in the awkward position.

Because were in impeachment proceedings of being able -- unable to discuss in public the merits. So the Senator Schumer's claim. And at the same time, my Democratic friends have refused to go into closed session, so we can discuss it.

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): For that reason, Madam President, I move we adjourn this court of impeachment -- impeachment immediately until 12:00 noon on Tuesday, April 30. And I ask for the yeas and nays.

MURRAY: Is there a sufficient second?

There is a sufficient second. The clerk will call the roll.

UNIDENTIFIED SENATE CLERK: Ms. Baldwin, Mr. Barrasso, Mr. Bennett -

DEAN: All right, so you're now watching the Senate floor. That was Senator John Kennedy from Louisiana, with his motion to adjourn.

Let's go now to CNN congressional correspondent, Manu Raju, who is watching this on for all before us.

He wants to adjourn until April 30th, Manu.

RAJU: I got -- lost my audio there here, Jessica. But I believe you were asking me about what just happened here on the Senate floor.

But this vote that just went down, as I said earlier, that this can essentially anything can essentially happen. A member can go off and have their own point of order. They can try to have them make their own political point.

That's essentially what Senator John Kennedy just did, right there, trying to make a motion to actually adjourn this chamber until April 30th, essentially, say -- trying to express his opposition to the efforts by Democrats to essentially kill these articles of impeachment outright.

And this is going to almost certainly fail again. Just like we saw that Ted Cruz effort failed to actually move it to a close session and to debate the proceedings. They are trying to make the argument here that Democrats don't actually want to have a serious debate about the border, about the problems at the border, about the charges that they're making against Alejandro Mayorkas. That's the argument that Republicans are trying to make by these, vote after vote.

We'll see if there are any other ones afterwards. There are possible -- there are other people that will come up and they'll try to force, make their own political points. They have the right to do that, which is why we don't know how long this ultimately will take.

It was interesting in that first vote. It went down 51-49 along straight-party lines. There were some questions about how some of the other members may come down here, particularly, some of the more moderate members on the Republican side of the aisle.

People have been critical of these proceedings like Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, for one. The Republican has been super -- very critical of House Republicans pushing ahead on this. But she seemed to agree with the idea of going into a debate.

We'll see if others, Republicans join in on that, that question of adjourning this as well. As was moderate swing-state Democrats. They said they align themselves with the Democratic position on this, essentially shutting down Ted Cruz's effort. We'll see if they shut down this effort to adjourn the chamber as well.

But that's one thing Republicans are hoping that there's -- ultimately that this leads to, some ammunition they could use against those vulnerable Democrats from states like Ohio, Montana, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and the like.

[14:55:11]

They believe that this could work for them politically. We'll see if it ultimately does. But that's part of all this driving some of the strategy here.

But as we said, this is - we'll see if this is the end of it. And we'll see Republicans will come up after this vote, which is expected to fail, and try to press ahead with their own political points and argue that Democrats are trying to squelch what they consider very serious proceedings that should be heard on the floor of the Senate.

SANCHEZ: The beginnings of a point of order-palooza, it appears, that we are watching on the floor of the Senate.

I quickly want to go to Michael Gerhardt.

Because, Michael, as Manu noted, that this is sort of a free for all. And after this, as we expect, gets shot down, there may be another point of order and then another one after that.

One of the points that Senator Kennedy made that I think echoed what Senator Cruz said before him was that some Republicans feel they are unable to discuss the merits of this case in public. They want a closed session to do that. What would the advantage of that be?

GERHARDT: Well, typically, at some point in a Senate impeachment trial, and after evidence has been submitted and arguments have been made, the Senators will go into a closed session in which there'll be very frank with each other and make extensive arguments in favor of or against conviction.

But I think that Senator Kennedy's point is probably not well taken because what he wants is not something that typically happens at this stage. Instead, at this stage, what happens is almost exactly what we're seeing, points of order are going to supersede any other motion or -- that's made in this process.

And so, instead, Senator Kennedy tried to sneak in a little speech and you could hear the chair, the presiding officer kind of hit the gavel pretty quickly.

My guess is she's going to try and cut off speeches as quickly as she can to move these votes along.

SANCHEZ: It appears as though the vote has wrapped up. I believe they're verifying the count now.

Can we listen in and see where things stand?

There is no sound from the floor of the Senate --

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: -- on Senator Kennedy's point of order there. We are going to wait for them to call that vote.

And let's squeeze in a quick break and we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)