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House Speaker Enters Protest Fight; Arizona Seeking to Repeal Civil War Abortion Law; Supreme Court Hears Abortion Case. Aired 1- 1:30p ET

Aired April 24, 2024 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:30]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Abortion back before the Supreme Court. The nine justices hear another case touching on one of the most divisive issues in American life, this time a challenge to a state ban and the question of what can be done in emergency situations.

A new voice calling for the president of Columbia University to resign, as pro-Palestinian protesters refuse to stand down. House Speaker Mike Johnson is heading straight to campus today, and we're following his visit.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, a CNN exclusive, new video casting doubt on the Pentagon's account of the horrific attack at Kabul's airport in 2021, an attack that killed 13 U.S. service members and about 170 Afghans.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Right now, the Supreme Court appears deeply divided over one of the biggest abortion cases since Roe v. Wade was overturned.

Today, the justices heard arguments over whether hospitals have an obligation under federal law to provide abortions to women during non- life-threatening medical emergencies even in states where the procedure is banned.

This is stemming from a lawsuit filed by the Biden administration against the state of Idaho, which has a near-total abortion ban.

SANCHEZ: Now, Idaho's law does have an exception to save the life of the mother, but it does not allow abortions in a non-life-threatening medical crisis.

Now, the Justice Department says this violates federal law requiring hospitals to provide emergency care.

CNN senior Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic joins us now.

Joan, an eventual decision could impact millions of women, emergency rooms and providers across the United States. Walk us through what the arguments look like today. JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Sure.

And just so you know, the solicitor general, Elizabeth Prelogar, said today that at least six other states have abortion bans that are as restrictive as Idaho's. There are about 22 states that now have much more restrictive laws since the Supreme Court back in 2022 completely erased the constitutional right to abortion.

Overall, I would say that this conservative-dominated court was very skeptical of the government's position that somehow you could still have abortions being provided in emergency situations in hospitals in these states that say that an abortion can only be allowed if it's necessary to save the life of the mother.

She would have to be near death. But the government says, no, there's so many other situations that would come before that moment that would be life-threatening to her reproductive health, to have any kind of failure of vital organs, things that would be -- would not be -- put her right at death's door, but would -- should be handled in an emergency situation.

So, we did have a little bit of pushback from the conservatives. But I want to play first a clip from Justice Alito talking to the solicitor general, Elizabeth Prelogar, that shows the kind of skepticism sort of for the heavy hand of government interfering with states here.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SAMUEL ALITO, U.S. SUPREME COURT ASSOCIATE JUSTICE: Does the term health in EMTALA mean just physical health, or does it also include mental health?

ELIZABETH PRELOGAR, U.S. SOLICITOR GENERAL: There can be grave mental health emergencies, but EMTALA could never require pregnancy termination as the stabilizing care.

ALITO: Why?

PRELOGAR: And here's why. It's because that wouldn't do anything to address the underlying brain chemistry issue that's causing the mental health emergency in the first place.

When a woman comes in with some grave mental health emergency, if she happens to be pregnant, it would be incredibly unethical to terminate her pregnancy. She might not be in a position to give any informed consent. Instead, the way you treat mental health emergency is to address what's happening in the brain.

If you're having a psychotic episode, you administer antipsychotics.

ALITO: I really want a simple, clear-cut answer to this question, so that, going forward, everybody will know what the federal government's position is.

Does health mean only physical health, or does it also include mental health? PRELOGAR: With respect to what qualifies as an emergency medical

condition, it can include grave mental health emergencies, but let me be very clear about our position. That could never lead to pregnancy termination, because that is not the accepted standard of practice to treat any mental health emergency.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BISKUPIC: And I just have to say, that EMTALA phrase, just for our audience, that refers to the Emergency Medical Act that's an issue here, the federal government coming in and saying that that should preempt the state law.

Samuel Alito dominated a lot of the arguments from the conservative point of view, but there were other justices, including Elena Kagan on the left, who said, look what's happened in Idaho since this ban was allowed to take effect and the federal government could not insist on emergency care for women with trouble.

[13:05:12]

Women have been transferred -- have had to be flown out of the state, transferred out of the state. So, their health needs are not being met. The justices are going to have to weigh which side has the stronger argument, but, also, they were very confused about what's actually happening on the ground. So there's a lot of facts to iron out too before they make their decision.

SANCHEZ: Joan Biskupic, thank you so much for the update.

BISKUPIC: Sure.

SANCHEZ: To underscore the real-life implications of abortion legislation, the Biden administration argued today that -- quote -- "If a pregnant woman goes into an emergency room facing a grave threat to her health, but is not facing death, doctors have to delay her care until she deteriorates or they're airlifting her out of the state, so she can get the emergency care that she needs."

The argument continues that -- quote -- "One hospital system in Idaho says that, right now, it's having to transfer pregnant women in medical crises out of the state about once every other week" -- end quote.

KEILAR: One doctor also said that some providers have left Idaho, that dozens of them have, as a result of the law, which created a destabilizing effect to health care in the state.

Joining us all -- joining us to talk now about all of this is Dr. Kara Cadwallader. She's a family medical physician. She's a member

of the Idaho Coalition for Safe Healthcare.

Doctor, have you been listening to what you have heard and I wonder what you think so far?

DR. KARA CADWALLADER, IDAHO COALITION FOR SAFE HEALTHCARE: Yes, I just want to speak to -- thank you, first, for having me.

And I just want to speak to what's happening on the ground in Idaho, where I practice. We have had disastrous results from this law being allowed to take effect. We are no longer able to provide the standard of care to our pregnant patients who come in with pregnancy complications.

They're not seeking abortion. They're seeking pregnancy care, but they have health-threatening complications. And we're being forced to sit on the sidelines and watch while they become progressively sicker and sicker, potentially facing life-changing consequences, like a stroke or kidney failure or liver failure, while we withhold necessary care.

Our hands are tied. We feel like we may be facing jail time if we provide that health-saving and lifesaving care. And so, as you mentioned earlier in the piece, folks are being -- pregnant patients are being flown out of the state to access our standard of care.

So it's had disastrous results. We have lost -- almost a quarter of our OB-GYN providers in the state have left because it's an untenable situation to be in. We cannot practice according to our oath to take care of patients to the best degree possible.

SANCHEZ: Now, Doctor, the Idaho attorney general spoke out just moments ago, rebuking what we heard from the U.S. solicitor general about airlifting patients.

I want you to listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAUL LABRADOR (R), IDAHO ATTORNEY GENERAL: The reality is that our law is very clear. It protects doctors, it protects women, it protects unborn children, and it ensures that the doctors can use a subjective standard.

If they believe that the life of the mother is in jeopardy -- it doesn't have to be imminent. They just believe that the life of the mother's in jeopardy, it allows them to perform an abortion. And it's really hard for me to conceive of a single instance where a woman has to be airlifted out of Idaho to perform an abortion.

In fact, I have talked to doctors in the E.R., the same E.R. rooms that they're talking about, and they are telling me that they have no idea what this administrator is talking about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Doctor, what's your response to that?

CADWALLADER: I wish that were the case.

I think our attorney general is not in touch with what's going on, on the ground. They have misrepresented the exodus of doctors from our states. I think they don't want to admit what we're facing here. The law is incredibly vague. Believe me, if we could provide the standard of care to our pregnant

patients, we would be doing it. We have been doing it for years, according to our training. But the law, the EMTALA law that we're talking about has removed that protection for us.

That's -- the law was put in place particularly to protect patients, saying they get access to this care. And Idaho has passed a law that says, everyone in America gets access to this care, everyone in Idaho, except if you're pregnant.

And so, unfortunately, it's not true what Mr. Labrador says, and we are having to sit idly by. And we -- it's unethical to wait, right? We can't put the patient in that position of waiting until they have extreme health consequences before they receive their care.

So, the life flights are going out of Idaho. A lot of OB-GYNs are advising their patients to take out life flight insurance if they're planning to become pregnant, which is absolutely unimaginable. And a lot of our -- Idaho is a very rural state. We are not a wealthy state.

[13:10:11]

So many of our folks who are pregnant can't afford to be flown out of the state. Their insurance doesn't cover that. And then they're facing trying to access care in a state without their family in the middle of a pregnancy crisis complication.

So, unfortunately, the effects on the ground are not as Mr. Labrador has represented. And I would just encourage folks to talk to the people who are actually providing the care, like myself, who are trying to take care of these patients who need our care.

KEILAR: Yes. There are life flights. There are patients who are not receiving care until a very critical point. I mean, it is documented.

CADWALLADER: Yes.

KEILAR: Dr. Cadwallader, we appreciate your time. Thank you.

CADWALLADER: Thank you so much.

KEILAR: We're also keeping an eye on Arizona, because we're learning there that state House lawmakers are expected to push through this repeal of the Civil War era abortion law there.

And this is something that the Arizona House tried and failed to do twice already.

SANCHEZ: And CNN's Natasha Chen has been following the story from Phoenix.

Natasha, bring us up to speed on what's happening.

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris and Brianna, I have a Republican source telling me that, despite the failed attempts, today, it is likely to go through. So they only meet on Wednesdays, and the legislation session just

began for the day at 10:00 a.m. local time here, so we're tracking what happens.

But what happened last Wednesday, two failed attempts, was to try to bring the bill of -- the repeal bill to the House floor, to bypass procedural hurdles to get it even considered on the full floor. They couldn't get that to happen.

But this source tells me that there are the votes there today to overcome that hurdle and then to actually pass the repeal. Now, if they succeed in doing, that's not the end of the story. It still has to go over to the Senate for a couple of readings.

If they fail to repeal this law, it goes into effect at the earliest June 8. And just to remind our viewers, this law dates back to 1864, when Arizona was a territory. It bans nearly all abortions, except in the case of saving the life of the mother. And a provider could be punished for two to five years in prison.

Right now, we're also seeing some developments with Republicans who met just before this session this morning to basically allow for late introduction of House resolutions for Republicans to come up with their own ballot initiatives for November to counter a ballot initiative that's already in the works by abortion rights activists trying to enshrine abortion rights in the state's constitution.

So this is going to play out over the next few months, a huge effect on the November vote.

SANCHEZ: Natasha Chen live for us from Phoenix.

Thank you so much, Natasha.

Still ahead this hour on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, we're going to take you live to Columbia University, where protests have essentially shut down the school's main campus. And House Speaker Mike Johnson is heading there. He's expected to call on the school's president to resign.

KEILAR: Plus, any minute, the judge overseeing Trump's hush money trial could rule on whether the former president violated a gag order. We are standing by for that.

And a new federal rule says airlines must automatically give out cold, hard cash, instead of vouchers, when passengers are seriously inconvenienced. We will have those details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:58]

SANCHEZ: Tensions are high on college campuses across the country, as pro-Palestinian protests intensify.

Today, House Speaker Mike Johnson is set to visit one of those schools, Columbia University in New York City. He's going to meet with Jewish students and will deliver remarks about antisemitism on campus. He also plans to join a group of New York Republicans in calling on the school's president to resign for failing to contain the situation.

KEILAR: Columbia shifted to hybrid classes in response to the demonstrations and today extended that plan through final exams.

We have Omar Jimenez on the scene. We have Melanie Zanona on Capitol Hill.

Omar, to you first. What are you seeing today?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so we have seen a number of small protests that have been happening., some of them -- or most of the small protests outside of campus, but the main one that has continued is the on-campus encampment-led protest that is now in its eighth day.

The students that we have spoken to and the organizers that we have spoken to that have been running that camp say that they want Columbia University to divest from corporations they say are supporting Israel.

Now, last night, we had a very key deadline that the university president, Minouche Shafik, set for midnight, saying that, if the students did not reach an agreement for dismantling these camps by then, they would find alternative ways to clear these encampments.

Midnight came and went. Then, hours later, a university spokesperson said that they actually made some significant progress with students, so much so that they pushed that deadline back by 48 hours.

But one of the interesting portions of the statement that the president made was that, last week, in the initial stages of -- last week, in the initial stages of the encampment actually happening, there was -- the president made the decision to send in the New York Police Department to actually clear out some of these protesters.

It led to arrests of students, suspensions. It was a decision that was criticized by many faculty and students here for bringing in an outside force. So, it's unclear if that's what's assumed in the alternative ways of dismantling this encampment of what was said in that initial statement. We will see.

[13:20:08]

And then, just to talk about the range of protests that we have seen, we have seen some protests, very peaceful, very much about solidarity with Gaza. We have also seen other protests that have been much more antisemitic in its messaging, a little bit more violent in its messaging, the majority of which have happened off of campus grounds.

But that is not to say that Jewish students have not entirely felt safe on campus grounds with some of those demonstrations, as many have told us that, at the very least, it is tense, at the very least, they are on edge, with some even saying they do not feel safe on campus, as, of course, the university has moved to hybrid learning for final exams next week. SANCHEZ: Let's go to Melanie Zanona now on Capitol Hill.

Melanie, what's the calculus here for Speaker Johnson? Why Columbia and why now?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, I think the most obvious reason is that Columbia University has become the epicenter for these protests that are now unfolding at college campuses all across the nation.

Johnson did say that he is planning to call on the university president to resign during this press conference. And he is going to be flanked by several Republican members of the New York delegation, some of those members being in some of the most vulnerable districts up for reelection in 2024.

Johnson did go on Hugh Hewitt's radio station earlier today to preview his trip. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We will be hosting a press conference there with some of my colleagues from the House, Republicans from New York, to call on the president of the university to resign.

It's unconscionable. This president, Shafik, is -- has shown to be a very weak, inept leader. They cannot even guarantee the safety of Jewish students? They're expected to run for their lives and stay home from class?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

ZANONA: Now, the topic of how college campuses are grappling with how to combat antisemitism has already been the subject of multiple congressional hearings here on Capitol Hill.

But we are expecting to see more of those in the coming weeks, especially in the wake of these latest protests. And there have also been growing GOP calls to restrict federal funding for any schools that they feel don't fight antisemitism enough.

So we could see that take the form of legislation again in the days and weeks ahead. But this is a -- also coming at another moment for Johnson, and that is then he is under fire from his right flank for how he handled those foreign aid bills that passed through the House over the weekend.

So this could be a moment for Johnson to use his platform to unify his party, win some points on the right, all while highlighting an issue that has been far more complicated for Democrats.

KEILAR: Yes, he definitely needs to win some points there on the right.

Melanie Zanona live for us on Capitol Hill, thank you. And we should note that Speaker Johnson will be heading from Columbia

University to CNN, where he's going to speak to Erin Burnett tonight on this very important day. Be sure to watch that at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

And coming up, the latest from New York, where Judge Merchan is currently deciding whether former President Trump violated a gag order in his historic hush money trial.

And it's an exclusive that you will only see here. New video uncovered by CNN challenges the Pentagon's account of a horrific attack as the U.S. withdrew from Afghanistan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:49]

KEILAR: Today, former President Donald Trump is waiting to find out if he's going to be sanctioned for violating the gag order in his hush money criminal trial.

In a hearing yesterday, prosecutors handed the judge 10 social media posts where they argued that Trump violated the gag order. And Judge Merchan appeared unimpressed with the defense's explanations that Trump was trying to comply, telling Trump lawyer Todd Blanche -- quote -- "You are losing all credibility with the court."

SANCHEZ: And even before yesterday's hearing got under way, Trump risked violating the gag order by repeatedly attacking key witness Michael Cohen in an interview he did with CNN affiliate WPVI.

It should be noted that the interview didn't air until the hearing was over. We have a clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (R) AND CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Michael Cohen is a convicted liar. And he's got no credibility whatsoever. He was a lawyer. And you rely on your lawyers.

But Michael Cohen was a convicted liar. He was a lawyer for many people, not just me. And he got in trouble because of things outside of what he did for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson joins us now.

Joey, how do you anticipate Judge Merchan is going to rule on whether Trump violated this gag order?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Boris, good to be with you and Brianna. I -- the way that I see it is that these are violations. And so the

question to me is not whether or not any of the several posts, 10 and counting, of course, with the one we just showed, yes, that was said before and aired after, there's no question to me that they were violations.

The critical inquiry is what specifically the judge is going to do. The trial is just under way. And we're at the stage where the judge, Boris, has to set the tone and tenor for the proceeding.

And just make no mistake about it. It's not only about the tone and tenor of the proceeding. It's not only about the integrity about process. It's not only about following rules, right? But the issue is whether or not someone could be harmed.

Yes, there's witness intimidation, but there's also people who have pretty strongly held views and are on various sides, as we look there at what the judge can do in terms of imposing $1,000 or giving Mr. Trump incarceration. But the reality is, something's got to give.

And so what I think the judge is struggling with is, what is the appropriate remedy at this point to stop this from happening? If it's happening now, you better believe it's going to be likely that it.